Opinion about Hard Counters

Gbolt

As some of you heard, Steve mentioned there will be hard counters in PvP, where some specific classes can kill other classes easier, but be killed by other type of classes.

I believe Steve takes inspiration from Lineage 2, where it also has similar system. Where for example light armor classes such as archers and rogues can kill caster classes the fastest, but have trouble against heavy armor classes, especially tanks (which would even have special self buff to significantly reduce damage from bows).

What do you guys think about such system?

I myself at least in Lineage 2, liked it, because it put some balance in game, where even individually strong class would not be kill all do all (at some extent at least) in group play and it would make pvp more dynamic, where different classes would need to use different tacticts and maybe kill/cc targets they are best handling.

P.S. in Lineage 2, mobs also had similar resistances, where for example some mobs would have very high resistance to bow damage or magic damage, meaning that specific type of groups would need to be fighting those mobs.

Nagash

I like the idea to be honest reminds me of TTRPGs

Cold 0ne FTB

In theory I think it's interesting and not a bad means of balancing the classes. Assuming all classes have some level of potential counter play I would enjoy this.

mcstackerson

I prefer more soft counters when it comes to the archetypes but like the idea of players being able to make focused builds that are really strong in one area but also really weak in others allowing a player that is built towards that weakness to hard counter them.

Wandering Mist

Cyclical balance is, in my opinion, the best way to manage balance for any kind of PvP game.

Aardvark

Hard counter removes skill and replaces it with luck of the class you are fighting so everyone has a chance to occasionally win

Wandering Mist

Aardvark wrote: »

Hard counter removes skill and replaces it with luck of the class you are fighting so everyone has a chance to occasionally win

That's why smart devs do cyclical balance based on individual abilities, NOT entire classes. If say a Mage is designed to always beat a Fighter, then you're right and fights turn into a coin flip with the winner decided purely by what classes are picked.

Instead, I would encourage devs to take a page out of League Of Legend's playbook, which shares out cyclycal balancing mechanics to a multitude of different champions. For example, some champions have a lot of self-healing in their kits, so to counter this there are a load of different items that reduce the healing. This means that players more often than not have the tools necessary to deal with what they are facing, it just depends on how and if they use those tools.

MangoRinds

I think it is a really neat concept, but I do hope it is within reason. Lore-wise it is awesome. Like an archer can kill a mage because he is ranged and can go through the light armor. Warrior can kill archer because he can get in his face and has beefy plate to avoid damage. Mage can kill Warrior because plate does nothing vs magic.

My only wonder is if it will still boil down to skill. How much of an advantage are we talking here? Am I going to see an Archer as a Mage and just think "Well forget this" and have to run away?

Tough too because I love a good 1v1, and I know it's not a great idea focusing on that balancing aspect of MMOs, but surely a little could go a long way maybe? But I've had some really good memories in MMOs with player driven content built around dueling culture. Helps people learn how to deal with different skillets and its just fun.

Gbolt

I remember in Lineage 2, it was lots of fun dueling with my tank against casters. They would have upper hand, because they could just cc you and blast with magic. But with good tactics it was possible to win against them.
I rolled dark avenger, which also had panther pet. And at the time, you coud attack yourself with pet. So I could use my pet to "remove" sleep CC from myself and not be obliterated by caster:)

Songcaller

It was said a while ago by Steven, that secondary class choice will narrow the gap between Hard Counters, it won't eradicate Hard Counters completely but it will narrow the gap. We can't be sure by how much the gap will be narrowed. I would hope skill is definitely the deciding factor when Hard Counters come in to play. I'd rather have active combat than static combat. (Not in terms of static skills or action combat, but, in terms of dynamic approaches to situations and not blanket approaches to situations).

Lazyactor

I mean sure give different archetypes a prey and a predator of different archetypes but the advantage should be slight and skill should be the determining factor ultimately. I thinks it would be boring to just know not to mess with that class because they have an advantage over me they didnt earn.

Bardtic

I think this is a fantastic idea. I hate modern MMO's where every class can do everything. That system is impossible to balance around. MOBA's incorporate the hard counter system. It gives you incentive to diversify and gives all classes value.

MangoRinds

I suppose the secondary archetype solves that issue, though. Won't let you do everything, since it only augments your abilities in a minor fashion. But it would give enough to bridge the gap. Not too much, not too little. You can mask some of your weaknesses just enough to work through it, then it probably IS up to skill in match-ups.