Negative feedback loop from dying

HymnosiHymnosi Member
edited August 1 in General Discussion
According to the wiki, dying gives you xp debt. xp debt then affects your stats by reducing them. To regain xp, you have to fight in some manner.

1. Player dies
2. Player has XP debt and stat reduction
3. Player dies again due to said XP debt and stat reduction
4. Player gets more XP debt and stat reduction.

Another potential situation is if a group of player killers camp a single person, as each time they die they receive xp debt. In this way it's possible to debt bomb a player into a position where they are unable to easily play.

Comments

  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds
    Stat reduction is only from corruption.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • HymnosiHymnosi Member
    edited August 1
  • I believe that the stat reduction penalty upon death comes in form of a debuff for a set amount of time - i assume between 1 to 5 minutes. It stops you from just respawning and jumping right back in to the action like nothing happened, you can still do so, but your performance will be crippled.
    If you played archeage, that kind of penalty would be familiar to you.
    The exp debt is mainly punishing pre-max lvl, since you cannot de-level, so the only penalty realistically you get is a slight time-out if you arent confident in fighting after a stat-loss, or literally no penalty if you jump right back in(aside from the obvious repairs and such, which we dont discuss here i assume).
    How it works with corrupted death, i am not sure, since corrupted players by their nature become weaker the more they kill anyway, so giving them an extra(not just the basic) penalty debuff would be a slight overkill in my opinion, but i am not sure yet how exactly it works.
  • HymnosiHymnosi Member
    wArchAngel wrote: »
    I believe that the stat reduction penalty upon death comes in form of a debuff for a set amount of time - i assume between 1 to 5 minutes. It stops you from just respawning and jumping right back in to the action like nothing happened, you can still do so, but your performance will be crippled.
    If you played archeage, that kind of penalty would be familiar to you.
    The exp debt is mainly punishing pre-max lvl, since you cannot de-level, so the only penalty realistically you get is a slight time-out if you arent confident in fighting after a stat-loss, or literally no penalty if you jump right back in(aside from the obvious repairs and such, which we dont discuss here i assume).
    How it works with corrupted death, i am not sure, since corrupted players by their nature become weaker the more they kill anyway, so giving them an extra(not just the basic) penalty debuff would be a slight overkill in my opinion, but i am not sure yet how exactly it works.

    If this is the case, then I'm not concerned. Most MMOs have some sort of ressurection sickness debuff, usually to punish the player and prevent abuse. It just hasn't been said from what I can tell.
  • First: is that wiki page 100% accurate to current info? (No offense, but we have to ask, right?). It seems like this info might only apply to certain situations, certain contexts? Arenas, etc...?

    But I will take it at face value so I don't construct a straw man. Second: If it is, and I am assuming it is accurate. I trust there will be systems in place that can monitor that type of grieving activity and send out alerts as needed.

    If it's getting camped by griefers, there is no way to prevent that. Reactionary measures are the only hope, since they can't - and should not - punish players for crimes they might commit. I hope this much is obvious. :)
    But you would be right to say that still doesn't make it fun for the victim. Still, and sadly, the point stands.

    As much as it will be a bad gaming experience for every single victim, every single time it happens, I understand when I click the proverbial launch button, I am opening myself up to that potential. I'm accept those consequences.

    Do I wish there were zero negative or positive consequences for dying without defending myself? Absolutely!
    I wish a non-combatant who dies in open world PvP would not be subjected to punishment, nor should they be rewarded for being a victim. They should die, and respawn either on the spot or at a "res-ring" of their choosing at a time when they chose.
    "Don't be hasty."
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds
    First: is that wiki page 100% accurate to current info? (No offense, but we have to ask, right?). It seems like this info might only apply to certain situations, certain contexts? Arenas, etc...?

    The page cites its references, so you can take a look at them and see if they are out of date or anything. In my experience so far, it has been quite accurate with what is known.

    Camping will be difficult or impossible as respawning sends you to a random location within a certain distance of your body.

  • noaaninoaani Member
    Hymnosi wrote: »
    According to the wiki, dying gives you xp debt. xp debt then affects your stats by reducing them. To regain xp, you have to fight in some manner.

    1. Player dies
    2. Player has XP debt and stat reduction
    3. Player dies again due to said XP debt and stat reduction
    4. Player gets more XP debt and stat reduction.

    Another potential situation is if a group of player killers camp a single person, as each time they die they receive xp debt. In this way it's possible to debt bomb a player into a position where they are unable to easily play.

    Do a non-combat activity to work off some of that experience debt if it becomes too much of a burden.

    Also, we do not know for sure if the stat reduction for experience debt is more harsh based on how much experience debt you have, or if you have a set amount of reduction until you no longer have any debt.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited August 1
    Hymnosi wrote: »
    According to the wiki, dying gives you xp debt. xp debt then affects your stats by reducing them. To regain xp, you have to fight in some manner.

    1. Player dies
    2. Player has XP debt and stat reduction
    3. Player dies again due to said XP debt and stat reduction
    4. Player gets more XP debt and stat reduction.
    Since I’ve played dozens of MMOs with death penalties and have never experienced this issue, I think it’s an absolutely needless concern.

    It’s like worrying that because the Sun is so massive compared to Earth (1.3 million times more massive to be exact), and gravity is based on the mass of an object, you should never go outside and jump because you’d fly into the sun. It doesn’t work that way.

    In other words... No, this doesn’t happen, so forget it.
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  • HymnosiHymnosi Member
    dVPY2gX.png

    Answer from steven this morning about this topic.
  • Hmm... not sure how I feel. If players accumulate exp-debt no matter how they die, it would certainly make players take fewer risks throughout the game. However, it would also prevent players from doing other types of things.

    Imagine players in raid/dungeons. In WoW for example, raid teams can easily spend hours in a raid, getting killed constantly by running face first into a progression boss and just hoping they get that 1 kill. With exp-debt, this type of behavior would be discouraged and even punished.

    I think it's an interesting idea, but I'm not concerned about it. AOC isn't meant to be like other MMOs, and I agree with Atama. I don't believe it'll be an issue. And if the exp-debt thing becomes too punishing, I'm sure it'll be toned down.
  • NeurathNeurath Member
    In some games, people fast travel by suicide. You can limit this approach in a game without fast travel through the experience death penalties after a death.
  • OrcLuckOrcLuck Member, Braver of Worlds
    This isn't something you should concerned about, unless you're absolutely just dying left and right, trying to get to a location.

    The thing is, places level up due to player activity so if you're going further away from players, you should be seeing fairly managable mobs, unless you happen upon the sprinkled about high level areas. If so, you should only be dying sporadically.

    Think about it in World of Warcraft when you were lvl 1 and running your bank alt to the capital city, you didn't really care because that was the point.
  • HymnosiHymnosi Member
    OrcLuck wrote: »
    This isn't something you should concerned about, unless you're absolutely just dying left and right, trying to get to a location.

    The thing is, places level up due to player activity so if you're going further away from players, you should be seeing fairly managable mobs, unless you happen upon the sprinkled about high level areas. If so, you should only be dying sporadically.

    Think about it in World of Warcraft when you were lvl 1 and running your bank alt to the capital city, you didn't really care because that was the point.

    I'm not worried about corpse runs, I'm worried about effectively locking someone out of the game. It's an edge case for sure, but it still exists in theory.
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