Concerns about balancing classes around groups of 8

Let's say I am a mage, and my class in the rock paper scissor system will be beaten by rogue, but can kite out warriors. If I run into a Rogue in PvP, the only motivation I have to fight back is that I lose less XP if I hit him. So, I just hit him once, then stand still because he beats my class.

That is the most boring game I can even think about, please let skilled players win against their class counters, one of the most satisfying feelings is when you beat an opponent by 10 health. Why even fight if you have no chance to win? do not let rock paper scissors be absolute, make it difficult to win against your counter, but achievable, and don't let group balance ruin 1v1 fights, which is probably some of the most fun types of PvP, I absolutely love to walk to the gates of towns and see the best players dueling there, it's awesome and you start to recognize the names of the best players.

I am just mainly afraid that if the game is balanced for group content, this specifically leaves certain classes vulnerable and others just straight up better at dueling. My main concerns are healers, as I have yet to find any MMO balance healers properly for PvP, they either outheal damage, or they do not, I would love to see healers able to defend themselves, but not be invulnerable to damage.

Additionally, tanks in PvP have always been in a really bad place, unless they offer CC and other utility, why even bring one? they are generally either invulnerable but have no kill potential, or outclassed by DPS entirely.

Comments

  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited August 2
    That's why you have secondary classes, diff armor types and sets, gear stats, and passives.

    Why not take tank or fighter as your secondary to give you some defense to counteract rogue's burst dmg? You could even take cleric and focus on healing back your lost hp.

    You could also wear heavy or medium armor, instead of light or cloth armor. Heavy armor is strong against physical damage and gives you more hp. This further reduces the burst potential of a rogue. (No info on medium armor yet)

    You have 16 gear slots, use them wisely. There might be set bonuses that give you defensive/pseudo defensive effects.

    Crafters that craft gear for you can determine the stats for that gear. Why not sacrifice some magic damage for some extra evasion/resistances?

    And finally, we also have passive skills. You can invest skill points that you gain from leveling up into the following passive skills: Block, cloth armor, elemental, heavy armor, light armor, mana pool, medium armor and ranged passive. Why not invest some points into block and heavy armor/medium armor passives (depending on which one you choose to wear) to further mitigate burst damage?

    You have ample of opportunities for counterplay. It just depends on how you build your character.

    You can find more info here:

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Skills#Passive_skills

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Armor
  • You don’t like the idea of an mmorpg balancing classes around group content. So balance it around the 5% of people who will be dueling outside of a metropolis? Why are people already trying to force there solo mentality on a MMORPG?? The game you want is a single player online role playing game.
  • Daedrik45 wrote: »
    You don’t like the idea of an mmorpg balancing classes around group content. So balance it around the 5% of people who will be dueling outside of a metropolis? Why are people already trying to force there solo mentality on a MMORPG?? The game you want is a single player online role playing game.

    I would be very suprised if only 5% participated in the open world pvp.
  • Rock paper scissors is blurred a bit with Secondary Class.
    What many fail to understand if that PvP it NOT optional.
    PvP will happen all the time.
    Everything is a reason to PvP. Resources, mobs spawns, areas where the XP/hour is better compared to others.
    If you go Mage/Mage full glass cannon and all your gear is +Damage, you DESERVE to lose against a full Rogue.

    It's all about choices, Risk vs Reward. Did you chose to forgo all types of resistances/hp/survivability? Then don't complain that you get one shot
  • darthadendarthaden Member, Braver of Worlds
    Just because a class has a natural advantage over another class doesn't mean you cant win the fight if you have better gear, more skilled, or possibly just get a lucky couple of crits
  • I dont think anyone should have an advantage over someone else because of the very first thing they did in the MMO. Choose a class to play. What an un fun anti competitiveness mindset would that make. How boring would it be to know I can win a fight against that dude as long as I am semi competent at my own class because it counters him....The system should never be what determines if you win or lose. That should be decided by you and your opponents.

    That being said builds that sacrifice some advantages to perform well for a purpose seem fine to me. Like being a melee stacking every mobility debuff and gap closer they can find so they can pin mages and other ranged characters down is fine. A ranged character stacking every mobility buff and movement skill they can find to prevent such a scenario is fine. But in no way should a fight be decided because tank beats rogue or other such nonsense.

    Every class should be able to build in such a way as to give themselves advantages over other archetypes but not so much that its basically a game of rock paper scissors. Who in their right minds would want a contests decided by luck. Boring as hell.
  • AardvarkAardvark Member
    edited August 2
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Rock paper scissors is blurred a bit with Secondary Class.
    What many fail to understand if that PvP it NOT optional.
    PvP will happen all the time.
    Everything is a reason to PvP. Resources, mobs spawns, areas where the XP/hour is better compared to others.
    If you go Mage/Mage full glass cannon and all your gear is +Damage, you DESERVE to lose against a full Rogue.

    It's all about choices, Risk vs Reward. Did you chose to forgo all types of resistances/hp/survivability? Then don't complain that you get one shot

    what alot are looking for is player skill being more important than which class you are fighting. The hard counters they say we will have is confusing as they say no participation trophies but hard counters and rewards based on group dps are pretty much the defination of mmo participation trophies.
  • darthadendarthaden Member, Braver of Worlds
    The point is its impossible to balance a game 100% for both pvp and pve and still keep class identity. Look at WOW, that games been around for how many years and and still hasn't managed to do it
  • Aardvark wrote: »
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Rock paper scissors is blurred a bit with Secondary Class.
    What many fail to understand if that PvP it NOT optional.
    PvP will happen all the time.
    Everything is a reason to PvP. Resources, mobs spawns, areas where the XP/hour is better compared to others.
    If you go Mage/Mage full glass cannon and all your gear is +Damage, you DESERVE to lose against a full Rogue.

    It's all about choices, Risk vs Reward. Did you chose to forgo all types of resistances/hp/survivability? Then don't complain that you get one shot

    what alot are looking for is player skill being more important than which class you are fighting. The hard counters they say we will have is confusing as they say no participation trophies but hard counters and rewards based on group dps are pretty much the defination of mmo participation trophies.

    If you blur the hard counter with secondary class, your skill will matter, but you will fight at a disadvantage. I have no problem with this.
    MMOs are group games, and balance you should be done around groups, not individual classes.

    You already know this. Want to succeed at arenas? Then play something that works for there. Again, your choice MATTERS.
  • ogreogre Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited August 2
    I think having a rock/paper/scissors type of system is a fine design choice. If every class was homogenized into "Melee DPS", and "Ranged DPS" with *perfect* balance it would be much less interesting. I think a rogue should be able to absolutely destroy mages/rangers/summoners if they catch them alone unless they either outgear them by a signinificant margin or there is a large disparity in skill between the two players. No single class should be good against every other class. There should absolutely be classes that you fear fighting alone and other classes that you're much more confident facing.

    Also consider what @CaptnChuck said in his post. You may end up running into a suprisingly tanky caster class or a damage oriented tank if they have their class or equipment set up to be more durable or do more DPS.
  • ogre wrote: »
    I think having a rock/paper/scissors type of system is a fine design choice. If every class was homogenized into "Melee DPS", and "Ranged DPS" with *perfect* blanance it would be much less interesting. I think a rogue should be able to absolutely destroy mages/rangers/summoners if they catch them alone unless they either outgear them by a signinificant margin or there is a large disparity in skill between the two players. No single class should be good against every other class. There should absolutely be classes that you fear fighting alone and other classes that you're much more confident facing.

    Also consider what @CaptnChuck said in his post. You may end up running into a suprisingly tanky caster class or a damage oriented tank if they have their class or equipment set up to be more durable or do more DPS.

    Thankyou. At least someone read what I said lol.

  • Topcatrs88Topcatrs88 Member, Founder
    I think It's important to note that this is an MMORPG that is trying to put back the MMO in MMO's. Encouraging you to play with other as much as possible. Now does that mean you might not be with someone at all time? Sure. You might be alone from time to time, but that doesn't mean you might not be able to win against a sneaking rogue. They have already stated that invisibility will not be fully invisible. So you will have a chance to see one sneaking up on you. Also I don't think the devs would balance around a 8 man and not take 1v1's into account as well.

    Another thing to take into account is an experience of a bad situation might bring about more content.
    Lets say that you are attacked out of no where by a rogue player and you die to him. Now you have a vendetta against that player and another goal in the game to work tword. Maybe now you go to your guild and put a reward out on that player to your guild mates, and they go out kill him. Then he goes and does the same thing. Next thing you know you have a full blown guild war on your hands. That player's actions just prompted a hell lot more content for you and everyone else.

    I also think it's important to note that we don't know everything about all the skills, gear, and tools you will have available to you. The system isn't fully built yet, and for all we know combat might not even be anything like we think. I think it's easy to look at a game like WoW and then compare every mmo to it, because it's been a popular one that's been around for so long, but for all we know the rogue archetype in this game might not even be nukey like in other mmos, Also like the others have stated your secondary archetype will play a big roll into a lot of these 1v1's making it a far different game than what we are used to, so I think it might be a little too early to go saying that balancing around group content might be a bad idea until we see the combat system start to come to fruition.

    Also in your example you used, the mage was beating an opponent by 10 health. How much better are you going to feel beating him now knowing he has an advantage against you in a 1v1, in a game that isn't balanced around a 1v1's?
  • Topcatrs88 wrote: »
    I think It's important to note that this is an MMORPG that is trying to put back the MMO in MMO's. Encouraging you to play with other as much as possible. Now does that mean you might not be with someone at all time? Sure. You might be alone from time to time, but that doesn't mean you might not be able to win against a sneaking rogue. They have already stated that invisibility will not be fully invisible. So you will have a chance to see one sneaking up on you. Also I don't think the devs would balance around a 8 man and not take 1v1's into account as well.

    Another thing to take into account is an experience of a bad situation might bring about more content.
    Lets say that you are attacked out of no where by a rogue player and you die to him. Now you have a vendetta against that player and another goal in the game to work tword. Maybe now you go to your guild and put a reward out on that player to your guild mates, and they go out kill him. Then he goes and does the same thing. Next thing you know you have a full blown guild war on your hands. That player's actions just prompted a hell lot more content for you and everyone else.

    I also think it's important to note that we don't know everything about all the skills, gear, and tools you will have available to you. The system isn't fully built yet, and for all we know combat might not even be anything like we think. I think it's easy to look at a game like WoW and then compare every mmo to it, because it's been a popular one that's been around for so long, but for all we know the rogue archetype in this game might not even be nukey like in other mmos, Also like the others have stated your secondary archetype will play a big roll into a lot of these 1v1's making it a far different game than what we are used to, so I think it might be a little too early to go saying that balancing around group content might be a bad idea until we see the combat system start to come to fruition.

    Also in your example you used, the mage was beating an opponent by 10 health. How much better are you going to feel beating him now knowing he has an advantage against you in a 1v1, in a game that isn't balanced around a 1v1's?

    You aren't going to feel better at all when your hard counter class kills you despite only being decent because hes the hard counter and you just dropped the legendary crafting matt you had spent a month getting on death not because of skill but just because he was your hard counter class.
  • Daedrik45 wrote: »
    You don’t like the idea of an mmorpg balancing classes around group content. So balance it around the 5% of people who will be dueling outside of a metropolis? Why are people already trying to force there solo mentality on a MMORPG?? The game you want is a single player online role playing game.

    I would be very suprised if only 5% participated in the open world pvp.

    I said the people out front dueling in front of a metropolis like people dueling out front of orgrimar for example... not wpvp
  • RodyaRodya Member
    You've never seen a healer class do well in a pvp/dueling situation?

    Play a druid in classic wow - spec swiftmend/fc or HOTW and duel away.

    The ideal MMORPG would have all classes as creative and thematic as the classic wow druid. But that's unrealistic. Ultimately its tough to tell this early in the game how hard class counters will be in duels... need to wait for people to get better at the game.
  • I'm happy with the current party size. It's going to encourage diversity in parties. Aside from a tank and cleric you are not going to be overly concerned about what classes your allies happen to be. Which in a game with 64 class choices is pretty important.
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  • NaxxazNaxxaz Member
    Lfmr wrote: »
    ...I am just mainly afraid that if the game is balanced for group content, this specifically leaves certain classes vulnerable and others just straight up better at dueling. My main concerns are healers, as I have yet to find any MMO balance healers properly for PvP, they either outheal damage, or they do not, I would love to see healers able to defend themselves, but not be invulnerable to damage.

    As many have said, the game is entirely made around groups of 8.

    While we don't know what abilities all the classes will have, expect bards to be almost useless in 1v1 and rogues to be the dominant world-pvp gankers.
    And hardcounter does not equal a loss, it just means the fight will be harder, it's not a death sentence for a mage in most games to be against a rogue... Unless it's vanilla wow.
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  • Actually based on what I gathered about Bards is they will probably be more useful in combat than you would expect from every other game. They aren't topping any charts but a lot of their buffs are attacks right now.
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  • Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    Actually based on what I gathered about Bards is they will probably be more useful in combat than you would expect from every other game. They aren't topping any charts but a lot of their buffs are attacks right now.

    I bet tanks and clerics will have the harder time, as they always do.
    But if that's the case, then they will become more important due to how difficult they're to level.
  • Keep in mind that, if you are a mage who's weak against back-stabbing, you have a real incentive to plan around that weakness, creating some real tactics. Play with a friend to watch each other's back in a dangerous area, or avoid heavy foliage, or do other risk-minimizing stuff.

    If you run around, on your OWN, and get stabbed in the woods so you drop the crown jewels, I think there were some decisions that lead to that point that could've been made with more wisdom.
  • LfmrLfmr Member
    Daedrik45 wrote: »
    You don’t like the idea of an mmorpg balancing classes around group content. So balance it around the 5% of people who will be dueling outside of a metropolis? Why are people already trying to force there solo mentality on a MMORPG?? The game you want is a single player online role playing game.

    Pretty sure this game is going to involve 100% of players in PvP, you will not always be in groups of 8+. Sometimes you're just going to be gathering resources alone like herbs or ore, and another player will happen by and say "Hmm, I think those herbs would look a lot better in my bag." And then they just kill you because they're your classes counter and you have no chance to defeat them. How is that any fun?

    Every class SHOULD have matchups that are difficult, and matchups that are easier, but if you lose a fight simply because of the class you picked in the beginning of the game or at level 25, that is just no fun. Perfectly balanced classes would all look exactly the same and play exactly the same, and that's boring too. Classes should be different, they should excel in different situations, but they need to have the tools to succeed, even when facing a tougher matchup.

    I want to reiterate, I have no problem with classes struggling against their counters, just so long as overcoming one's counter is possible with enough skill. Player skill should play a bigger factor then what class you pick or what gear you're wearing, if you're skilled in PvP, there should always be a chance that you can defeat your opponent. (Assuming the level and gear disparity is not miles apart.)
  • Topcatrs88Topcatrs88 Member, Founder
    Aardvark wrote: »
    Topcatrs88 wrote: »
    I think It's important to note that this is an MMORPG that is trying to put back the MMO in MMO's. Encouraging you to play with other as much as possible. Now does that mean you might not be with someone at all time? Sure. You might be alone from time to time, but that doesn't mean you might not be able to win against a sneaking rogue. They have already stated that invisibility will not be fully invisible. So you will have a chance to see one sneaking up on you. Also I don't think the devs would balance around a 8 man and not take 1v1's into account as well.

    Another thing to take into account is an experience of a bad situation might bring about more content.
    Lets say that you are attacked out of no where by a rogue player and you die to him. Now you have a vendetta against that player and another goal in the game to work tword. Maybe now you go to your guild and put a reward out on that player to your guild mates, and they go out kill him. Then he goes and does the same thing. Next thing you know you have a full blown guild war on your hands. That player's actions just prompted a hell lot more content for you and everyone else.

    I also think it's important to note that we don't know everything about all the skills, gear, and tools you will have available to you. The system isn't fully built yet, and for all we know combat might not even be anything like we think. I think it's easy to look at a game like WoW and then compare every mmo to it, because it's been a popular one that's been around for so long, but for all we know the rogue archetype in this game might not even be nukey like in other mmos, Also like the others have stated your secondary archetype will play a big roll into a lot of these 1v1's making it a far different game than what we are used to, so I think it might be a little too early to go saying that balancing around group content might be a bad idea until we see the combat system start to come to fruition.

    Also in your example you used, the mage was beating an opponent by 10 health. How much better are you going to feel beating him now knowing he has an advantage against you in a 1v1, in a game that isn't balanced around a 1v1's?

    You aren't going to feel better at all when your hard counter class kills you despite only being decent because hes the hard counter and you just dropped the legendary crafting matt you had spent a month getting on death not because of skill but just because he was your hard counter class.

    That's the risk vs reward factor that they and a lot of players want back in MMO's. Sure it might suck losing it, but that's just more incentive to go back to farming again, and with the way degradation works in this game I don't think it's going to be that hard to get super good materials since there will need to be enough supply and demand to repair those legendary weapons that a lot of end game players will have. Plus if you farm these great resources and you get attacked and your being attacked and you decide to not attack back, they risk becoming corrupt from killing you and risk dropping their (completed equipped) gear on their death if they are killed before they can work off their debt. Which, in most cases, is going to be way more detrimental to them over the value of your one crafting material. So they really need to weigh the consequences of weather or not your materials are more valuable than their equipment and gear.
  • lunarskylunarsky Member, Braver of Worlds
    I disagree. I think they're making the right decision balancing the game around group content. I would say most of the PvP you'll encounter will be a group setting anyways. (sieges, caravans, fighting over world boss spawns or open-world dungeons, attacking nodes etc)

    Skill can always overcome the rock paper scissors design anyways. I have beaten plenty of tanks as a rogue in WoW, for example, you just have to change how you go about attacking them. You won't lose the fight as a mage just because a rogue attacked you (unless they one-shot you due to level difference or gear but that is an outlier) you'll lose because you couldn't adjust. I'm not sure why you've seemingly decided skill and preparation (via how you built your character in terms of gear or skill choices) won't be enough to overcome the matchup.
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  • YuyukoyayYuyukoyay Member
    edited August 2
    Ya a lot of the PvP is going to be grouped. It's going to be the kind of game where if you see someone out in the world that doesn't want to kill you. Then you will team up so that you will be safer. You also aren't taking into account that you may not need to PvP out in the world. I know Bards historically always have a speed boost. They are often the fastest class in every game they are in. I will be running my ass away if I'm not happy with my odds.

    Other classes will probably be able to do the same. Rogue Stealth, Clerics with their subs just heal walking away, Tank tanking and using augments to escape. You may not need to fight.
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  • leameseleamese Member, Braver of Worlds
    I'm sure you can win from your counter if you more skilled then him. Skill also plays a huge roll in the matchup
  • WiplasherWiplasher Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty
    Lfmr wrote: »
    Pretty sure this game is going to involve 100% of players in PvP, you will not always be in groups of 8+. Sometimes you're just going to be gathering resources alone like herbs or ore, and another player will happen by and say "Hmm, I think those herbs would look a lot better in my bag." And then they just kill you because they're your classes counter and you have no chance to defeat them. How is that any fun?

    Every class SHOULD have matchups that are difficult, and matchups that are easier, but if you lose a fight simply because of the class you picked in the beginning of the game or at level 25, that is just no fun. Perfectly balanced classes would all look exactly the same and play exactly the same, and that's boring too. Classes should be different, they should excel in different situations, but they need to have the tools to succeed, even when facing a tougher matchup.

    I want to reiterate, I have no problem with classes struggling against their counters, just so long as overcoming one's counter is possible with enough skill. Player skill should play a bigger factor then what class you pick or what gear you're wearing, if you're skilled in PvP, there should always be a chance that you can defeat your opponent. (Assuming the level and gear disparity is not miles apart.)

    I don't know how I feel about this... An assassin should be absolutely be able to kill a minstrel with little trouble. I understand getting countered sucks but it is called a counter for a reason.

    I like the idea of "okay he killed me once, but I'll change my build to be better prepared next time".

    This is my opinion though. I grew up pvping in Eve so I definitely fall in the hardcore crowd of "sucks to be me today"
  • wiplasher4 wrote: »

    I don't know how I feel about this... An assassin should be absolutely be able to kill a minstrel with little trouble. I understand getting countered sucks but it is called a counter for a reason.

    Bards aren't going to be the exact same class as from other games. There are hints they might be more combat focused than any other iteration. If that is the case then a Ministrel might actually counter an Assassin.

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  • NamilNamil Member
    Why would people want every class to be evenly matched, that would mean that every class needs to have the exact same utility and that takes away a lot of the independent uniqueness you get from a class to begin with.

    If you want to win against classes that have an advantage over you then practice and itemise yourself according to the fight you’re about to be in, don’t homogenize classes for the sake of wanting everyone to be a winner in every situation.

    Also, this sort of balance is literally going to be impossible because of how players can individually alter each of their skills by adding extra flare and power behind them, you’re most likely not going to know what toolset your opponent has specialised in before you go into a fight anyway.
  • LfmrLfmr Member
    edited August 2
    wiplasher4 wrote: »

    I don't know how I feel about this... An assassin should be absolutely be able to kill a minstrel with little trouble. I understand getting countered sucks but it is called a counter for a reason.

    I like the idea of "okay he killed me once, but I'll change my build to be better prepared next time".

    This is my opinion though. I grew up pvping in Eve so I definitely fall in the hardcore crowd of "sucks to be me today"

    I usually play rogue or stealth classes when I play MMO's and specifically in WoW, I have found Rogue to be the most boring class to play in that game, if you play it absolutely perfectly you can kill players before they can even get out of your stunlock, that is probably the most boring version of a rogue class I have ever played because it's literally like fighting a target dummy, and if I find it boring, then I imagine the guy on the other side of the screen isn't having that much more of a fun time either.

    You should never, NEVER be put into an unwinnable situation because of a decision you made 400 hours worth of gameplay ago. There should never be a situation where one class can just demolish another with no chance of losing, ESPECIALLY when the desired time to kill is 60+ SECONDS. Sure, you should have an advantage when fighting against classes you counter, but it should never be a guaranteed kill.

    Additionally, seeing a lot of comments agreeing with my sentiment, but framing it in a way that they disagree with me? Maybe I am misreading the comments, or maybe I am just bad at explaining my thoughts.
  • AioleAiole Member
    Granted getting assassinated quickly isn't very fun for (potentially both sides), I have seen some people love doing the Burst Damage though to keep that in mind.

    However in Ashes of Creation, one of the things that drew me is the attention to realism and the focus of immersion into fantasy -- whether it's their decision to respect the importance of distance in their game world, to the Node System (developing civilizations themselves). And in a world like that - the Rock, Paper, Scissors Idea makes sense. Rogues should be able to dispatch the (for example) Mage class easily but maybe struggle more against Tanks.

    Finally, being balancing around groups is important based on the classes shown in my opinion -- Since we don't know much about the specifics of each classes work, we'll just have to say -- it's likely that the decision trees are being looked at so there is some form of play/option available so that if there is sufficient skill difference e.g Pokemon Grass beats Water but that doesn't mean Blastoise can't beat a Venusaur (more so when considering the Secondary Archetype Combination).

    e.g If you are a Mage player concerned about being bursted, you'll likely go Tank Secondary to counter that
    alternatively, if you are a Double Mage (so Glass Cannon, High Damage, Low Endurance), you should be able to punished for that decision and for not positioning well.
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