Is self-defence even possible?

Hello everyone, here are many threads about the combat system and its flaws, but after reading them I still don't get the point behind that one part of it.

For example:
I am gathering ressources and a greedy player wants them too. So he decides to attack and probably kill me.
If I got it right he will be flagged as a combatant in this moment.

And now I got some options:
1st - Fight back = I will get flagged as a combatant
2nd - Run away = I would miss those ressources
3rd - Get killed = death penalty

So do I get it right, that no matter what I do if a player attacks me I get punished, too? Where Is the point behind that? If he attack me and I kill him in return, why should I get punished for his "mistake" ?

I can see people running around the world with low level characters, attacking normal players while gathering or leveling or what ever until they die or fight back to get them flagged.

Do I get it right or am I totally wrong?
«1

Comments

  • JexzJexz Member
    You become a combatant for defending yourself. You do not become corrupted for killing him because he was also a combatant. He may drop some of his resources if he has any so you may get rewarded. He will get punished if he had any resources on him as well as an EXP deficit.

    Now my question is If he has no resources and is LvL 50 since you can't drop a lvl according to the wiki. What is the risk going around at lvl 50 with nothing to drop and hitting people looking for someone to hit you back so you can take their loot?
  • noaaninoaani Member
    Baku wrote: »
    Do I get it right or am I totally wrong?
    Yes and no.

    You are right in terms of the facts.

    Thing is, each of those options also has a benefit to you over the other options. So you have a set of three possibilities, each with good points and bad points. There is no way to avoid all of the bad points (that is kind of necessary for a PvX game), and so you get to decide which option to take that has the best good points and the least bad negative points for you at that point in time.

    An example may be that you don't expect to see any other players in the area for a while. In this case, being flagged as a combatant for a short period of time isn't going to negatively impact you at all.

    Or perhaps you know there is another patch of the same resources just over the hill - you can just run off and harvest there instead.

    Or, maybe you have gear on that you are about to replace, no raw materials on you, and plan on farming some mobs for a few hours for some certs - in this case the penalty from just letting him kill you would be drastically reduced in terms of it's impact on you.

    The thing to remember is, when a player attacks you, there is no way to opt out of it.
  • jubilumjubilum Member, Pioneer
    4th - Kill him = no penalty. You may still be flagged as a combatant for a short period of time.
  • Becoming combatant is fine IMO since you can kill other combatants without repercussions. I'm not sure if you still suffer a death penalty if you are killed by a player while non-combatant.
  • noaaninoaani Member
    I'm not sure if you still suffer a death penalty if you are killed by a player while non-combatant.
    The death penalty for being killed by a player while non-combatant is 100% of the death penalty listed on the wiki.

    Being killed while a combatant is 50%.

    Being killed while corrupted is 400%.

  • BakuBaku Member
    Okay I see what you mean.

    So fighting back is always the better option.

    But I still hope there will be a "fight setting" where you can disable hitting players that attacked you, if they maybe attack you while farming and you would hit them accidentally.
  • noaaninoaani Member
    Baku wrote: »
    Okay I see what you mean.

    So fighting back is always the better option.

    But I still hope there will be a "fight setting" where you can disable hitting players that attacked you, if they maybe attack you while farming and you would hit them accidentally.

    You can't accidently attack a player.
  • jubilumjubilum Member, Pioneer
    Baku wrote: »
    Okay I see what you mean.

    So fighting back is always the better option.

    But I still hope there will be a "fight setting" where you can disable hitting players that attacked you, if they maybe attack you while farming and you would hit them accidentally.

    It is your choice. If my backpack is empty I would just stand there so he takes the corruption, I could careless about the XP lose (easy come, easy go). If I was carrying the family jewels maybe not, it would depend on my chance of beating him.
  • noaaninoaani Member
    edited August 2
    jubilum wrote: »
    Baku wrote: »
    Okay I see what you mean.

    So fighting back is always the better option.

    But I still hope there will be a "fight setting" where you can disable hitting players that attacked you, if they maybe attack you while farming and you would hit them accidentally.

    It is your choice. If my backpack is empty I would just stand there so he takes the corruption, I could careless about the XP lose (easy come, easy go). If I was carrying the family jewels maybe not, it would depend on my chance of beating him.

    Indeed.

    To me, this is the best thing about the corruption system - how you react will depend completely on your exact current circumstance. It may be best for you to fight back, it may be best for you to run, it may be best for you to let them gain corruption - regardless, you have no real time to think about it.

    This is the kind of thing I want to see actually in combat - rather than a rotation, different circumstances that we could be in will drastically alter how we do things.
  • jubilumjubilum Member, Pioneer
    noaani wrote: »
    jubilum wrote: »
    Baku wrote: »
    Okay I see what you mean.

    So fighting back is always the better option.

    But I still hope there will be a "fight setting" where you can disable hitting players that attacked you, if they maybe attack you while farming and you would hit them accidentally.

    It is your choice. If my backpack is empty I would just stand there so he takes the corruption, I could careless about the XP lose (easy come, easy go). If I was carrying the family jewels maybe not, it would depend on my chance of beating him.

    Indeed.

    To me, this is the best thing about the corruption system - how you react will depend completely on your exact current circumstance. It may be best for you to fight back, it may be best for you to run, it may be best for you to let them gain corruption - regardless, you have no real time to think about it.

    This is the kind of thing I want to see actually in combat - rather than a rotation, different circumstances that we could be in will drastically alter how we do things.

    Oh hell no, you agreed with me. I think I'm going to faint or go to bed since my day will get no better than this.
  • BakuBaku Member
    I just asked myself another question for this topic.

    Will there be save spots like save houses, shelters or protected areas around spawn areas where you can run to or just go to when you need a break or want to afk for a while?
  • jubilum wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    jubilum wrote: »
    Baku wrote: »
    Okay I see what you mean.

    So fighting back is always the better option.

    But I still hope there will be a "fight setting" where you can disable hitting players that attacked you, if they maybe attack you while farming and you would hit them accidentally.

    It is your choice. If my backpack is empty I would just stand there so he takes the corruption, I could careless about the XP lose (easy come, easy go). If I was carrying the family jewels maybe not, it would depend on my chance of beating him.

    Indeed.

    To me, this is the best thing about the corruption system - how you react will depend completely on your exact current circumstance. It may be best for you to fight back, it may be best for you to run, it may be best for you to let them gain corruption - regardless, you have no real time to think about it.

    This is the kind of thing I want to see actually in combat - rather than a rotation, different circumstances that we could be in will drastically alter how we do things.

    Oh hell no, you agreed with me. I think I'm going to faint or go to bed since my day will get no better than this.
    lol
  • JoelTGMJoelTGM Member
    So if you defend yourself, you are flagged as a combatant. What does that even mean if you can attack players who aren't even flagged? If I'm wandering around and see a player flagged as a combatant, what should I do with this information?
  • noaani wrote: »
    I'm not sure if you still suffer a death penalty if you are killed by a player while non-combatant.
    The death penalty for being killed by a player while non-combatant is 100% of the death penalty listed on the wiki.

    Being killed while a combatant is 50%.

    Being killed while corrupted is 400%.

    I'll take ur word for it (on the former) but is there anywhere confirming this? I know the Wiki isn't the "God-source" but idk where it's stated a non-combatant player that's killed by a combatant loses 100% exp (I know the Wiki states something like this under "Player Death", but idk if this Non-C vs C is a special case, IYGM).

    On another note: this makes the system a bit exploitable (maybe). Attack a Mob that's above your weight class, when you're about to die, attack a random player to only suffer 50% of the consequences. Hmm.
  • noaaninoaani Member
    edited August 2
    noaani wrote: »
    I'm not sure if you still suffer a death penalty if you are killed by a player while non-combatant.
    The death penalty for being killed by a player while non-combatant is 100% of the death penalty listed on the wiki.

    Being killed while a combatant is 50%.

    Being killed while corrupted is 400%.

    I'll take ur word for it (on the former) but is there anywhere confirming this? I know the Wiki isn't the "God-source" but idk where it's stated a non-combatant player that's killed by a combatant loses 100% exp (I know the Wiki states something like this under "Player Death", but idk if this Non-C vs C is a special case, IYGM).

    On another note: this makes the system a bit exploitable (maybe). Attack a Mob that's above your weight class, when you're about to die, attack a random player to only suffer 50% of the consequences. Hmm.

    It isn't 100% experience, it is 100% of the death penalty - which will be either a flat amount of experience debt, or a level based percentage.

    The percentages are to show how severe the penalty is due to character status. Non-combatant gets the full penalty, combatant gets half, corrupted gets more.

    If players do start attacking other players to gain combatant status when about to die, it wouldn't be hard to combat it if Intrepid wanted to (this may well be considered legitimate use of the game systems).

    They have specifically said that they may differ the penalties for PvP and PvE death in the future.
  • BakuBaku Member
    Baku wrote: »
    I just asked myself another question for this topic.

    Will there be save spots like save houses, shelters or protected areas around spawn areas where you can run to or just go to when you need a break or want to afk for a while?

    Does anyone know something about that?
  • noaaninoaani Member
    Baku wrote: »
    Baku wrote: »
    I just asked myself another question for this topic.

    Will there be save spots like save houses, shelters or protected areas around spawn areas where you can run to or just go to when you need a break or want to afk for a while?

    Does anyone know something about that?

    You can lock yourself in your house (literally locking the door).

    Presumably if you have an apartment you will be safe there.

    You are unable to be attacked if you are manning an in node consignment store.

    That is about all I can think of.
  • jubilumjubilum Member, Pioneer
    JoelTGM wrote: »
    So if you defend yourself, you are flagged as a combatant. What does that even mean if you can attack players who aren't even flagged? If I'm wandering around and see a player flagged as a combatant, what should I do with this information?

    It simply mean he is interest in a fair fight with someone with similar thoughts. This is not unusual in most mmo's, most allow pvp between consenting players. The difference in AoC is that unlike other mmo's where if you are a non-combatant you can not be attacked, but is AoC it doesn't make any difference.
  • BakuBaku Member
    noaani wrote: »
    Baku wrote: »
    Baku wrote: »
    I just asked myself another question for this topic.

    Will there be save spots like save houses, shelters or protected areas around spawn areas where you can run to or just go to when you need a break or want to afk for a while?

    Does anyone know something about that?

    You can lock yourself in your house (literally locking the door).

    Presumably if you have an apartment you will be safe there.

    You are unable to be attacked if you are manning an in node consignment store.

    That is about all I can think of.

    Okay that's enough information for now.

    Thank you :)
  • noaaninoaani Member
    JoelTGM wrote: »
    So if you defend yourself, you are flagged as a combatant. What does that even mean if you can attack players who aren't even flagged? If I'm wandering around and see a player flagged as a combatant, what should I do with this information?

    Nothing, necessarily.

    If a player is flagged as a combatant, that means they probably just killed someone that tried to kill them (or at least killed someone that fought back). If they are harvesting or grinding and you don't want a fight, you can probably assume you will get one if you intrude - they have proven very recently that they will fight to keep their spot (or to take it).

  • okay i need a bit more infos on this though as i dont quite understand it.

    So if i were to gather, and someone attacks me they willl get flagged, then i will get flagged if i choose to fight back (self-defense), but if i die i get less punished than if i didnt do anything (or die running away) right?

    that doesnt make sense whatsoever. Is there a way where i do NOT get punished if i didnt initiate anything? seems weird.
  • BakuBaku Member
    that doesnt make sense whatsoever. Is there a way where i do NOT get punished if i didnt initiate anything? seems weird.

    That's what I thought.
    Why should I get punished for defending myself because someone attacked me?
    He tried to kill me ( so he gets the combatant status), but when I killed him after he attacked me, then why should i get a penalty status?

    That's like people decide to attack this Level 5 node in siege and after SUCCESSFULLY defending this node gets downgraded by 1 level is a Level 4 node now. What's the point behind that? It was protected successfully.
  • well i do get the node thing. it doesnt make sense in real life but think about it. if the outskirts all get destroyed in war the city itself will become smaller once all the rubble has been removed. THAT i understand. I understand why, even if you defended it, there are consequences from a siege and your city didnt magically get no scartch during that war.

    so yes. a successful defense from a metropolis, while still taking heavy dmg, will downgrade it a level and that makes sense (as far as there is like a % of dmg done to the city that has to be reached to downgrade it)

    But if someone attacks me and i still get punished for defending myself. that doesnt make sense.

    I do understand that it forces pvp more often rather than "sure go ahead and kill me its your loss anyway"
    now its "oh shit imma beat the shit out of you!" yet you still died it shouldnt be as much of a punishment as if you did nothing. i get that.

    Still doesnt make sense.

    What would compensate it is, if the person who attackedd first gets punished harder if he died then at least he has to think twice to attack someone.

    lets say Defending get 50% of the punishment
    death while initiating the combat gets 150%
    while corrupted its 400%

    that in itself already makes you think if that resource is even worth trying to steal.
    if both get punished the same its like "meh lets try this was me 15mins ago and i got punished just the same so whatever"


    idk. do i make sense?
  • okay i got it now nvm. this is the wiki

    A non-combatant (green player) who dies suffers normal penalties, which include:[3]
    1. Experience debt (negative experience).[4]
    2. Skill and stat dampening.[3]
    3. Lower health and mana.[3]
    4. Lower gear proficiency.[3]
    5. Reduction in drop rates from monsters.[5]
    6. Durability loss.[3]
    7. Dropping a percentage of carried raw materials.[3]
    8. This includes a percentage of items carried on the player's mule.[6]
    9. This also includes a percentage of the certificates a player is carrying.[7]

    A combatant (purple player) who dies suffers these same penalties, but at half the rate of a non-combatant.[3]

    A corrupt (red player) suffers penalties at four times[8] the rate of a non-combatant, and has a chance to drop any carried/equipped items based on their current corruption score. This includes:[8][3]
    Dropping weapons and gear.[8][9]
    1. These dropped items may be looted by other players.[10]
    2. Corrupt players respawn at random locations in the vicinity of their death, not at regular spawn points.[11]
    3. Dampening (due to corruption) only affects PvP combat.[12]
    4. Death penalties do not differ between PvP and PvE, but this is subject to change.[13]
    5. Death by drowning is possible.[14


    So what they are refering too is the death penality in and of itself

    i assume that includes dying from monsters too.

    so fighting back is a good thing (or tagging at least) so you dont get punished too much.

    I dont like that the initiant doesnt get punished after attacking a non-combantent who decides to fight back. That should be changed in a way.

    But this leaves you open to planning. You could let him kill you without fighting back and then he will become corrupted, then you could go on a hunt to kill him back which makes him lose 4x as much than what you did and you get a chance to get some gear from him.

  • You also may be able to run away depending on the classes involved.
    1UL8RIb.gif
  • jubilumjubilum Member, Pioneer
    As I understand it if you are green and get attacked, fight back and by some miracle win the fight you loose nothing and after a couple minutes will return to green. So this would be the best result for a non-combatant.
  • WMC51WMC51 Member
    the more I hear people talk about this the more convoluted it becomes.

    Why does a green take more of a penalty than a purple? I guess to lean toward encouraging people to fight back?

    You don't want to pvp but if you stand there and die you take full death penalty or fight back and be flagged for X amount of time and the attacker doesn't get corrupted now.
  • jubilumjubilum Member, Pioneer
    WMC51 wrote: »
    the more I hear people talk about this the more convoluted it becomes.

    Why does a green take more of a penalty than a purple? I guess to lean toward encouraging people to fight back?

    You don't want to pvp but if you stand there and die you take full death penalty or fight back and be flagged for X amount of time and the attacker doesn't get corrupted now.

    Exactly. It is an attempt to force pvp instead of just a ganking. But, I'm all about forcing the attacker to decide if he really wants that corruption or not since they have the choice to stop the attack if you don't fight back.
  • BakuBaku Member
    I even read some days ago, that if you attack someone and that player will defend themself you wont get any points that lead you to corruption (you are flagged but cant get corrupted if they fight back).

    Is that true? In my mind that would be even more senseless.
  • jubilumjubilum Member, Pioneer
    If you are green and out wandering thru the woods and stumble across a red corrupted player if you decide to be the hero and make a citizens arrest on this nasty criminal and succeed in eliminating the threat you will not become corrupted. So yes you are correct. Not if you think about it the way I just described it.
Sign In or Register to comment.