Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!
Options
Better Boss Battles? (Suggestion)
cellesie
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
I’ve watched all the footage of Alpha 1 and pre-Alpha, and one of the things that stuck out to me was the dungeon boss battle, with the pyroclastic wyrm.
DISCLAIMER-I am aware that things are still in production and are likely to change, and my concerns may naturally be resolved. This is meant strictly as a suggestion while things are being developed.
Ashes has talked about how important engaging content is to their vision of the game, especially combat. However, I feel like the boss battle left a lot to be desired. Since boss battles from dungeons or raids are the primary and most challenging kind of content for the PVE side, if it is lacking then the PVE side of the game may be as well. (PVE combat that is).
There was a lack of boss mechanics, especially movement. The pyroclastic wyrm took maybe three steps to reach the players once aggro was gained, and stood in the same spot for the duration of the fight. I feel like, one, not only is this fairly boring, it is a missed chance to use and show off the beautiful and large boss room that the dungeon has. It has been said that the AOC world should feel huge, with large sprawling dungeons, and in this dungeon, there was a huge cavern, but the boss stayed in one spot the entire time, and only changed which direction it faced a handful of times.
I think one, the boss could have skills that cause it to move, from a couple steps forward or backward to repositioning itself to take a swipe or use a breath attack. In my experience there are many mechanics, from leaps, dashes, teleports, going underground, climbing walls, and flying (especially for the wyrm). Not that I think every boss should make players chase them around the room, or run, but I think some movement is important, whether dodging, chasing or avoiding aoe attacks, being forced to move because this giant monster is pushing you around, or environmental hazards. There was also a general lack of skills for the boss, only 3 main ones that I noticed, that only targeted the immediate space around or in front of it. I could see especially for this dungeon, a use of room wide breath attacks, attacks from flight, maybe falling stalagmites from the ceiling. There could also be a use of the environment, while there is lava, there could be a rise in lava, causing players to run to islands, or dodging falling rocks, crumbling surfaces, etc.
There was no mutli-phases for this boss battle, it was essentially the same, just spam skills in the same spot until it died, (other than mobs) no change in tempo or the rhythm of the battle. I feel like this also causes a lack of Boss personality, it doesn’t feel like a real enemy, its robotic, predictable, and frankly boring. In my experience the best boss battles were those with changing phases of the battle, and a personality, some games like Vindictus even classify the different behaviors of boss, from DPS, to a kiting type, or ranged.
The Boss room, is supposed to be the Boss’s lair, its home and I feel like some evidence of it living there tells a story and adds to immersion. This mighty creature, this huge wyrm, should feel like its fighting for its life, not just an angry piñata. An increasing desperateness as it loses health, changing skill sets through different stages of battle.
Some of the best examples I have are mainly from Vindictus, (also an example of action combat in general), like the battle with the Juggernaut (impactful, very memorable, suspenseful, heavy movement, crawling on walls, strong boss personality), Guardian of the East (flying around, shooting lightning from the sky, leaps, active fighting creature), Havan, (environmental hazards, pillars to take cover with, because of sandstorm, and things flying through the air, hard to see because of storm) and the Blood Lord (mobility, changing phases, change of pace) just to name a few. Another one of my favorites, especially for action combat is Dragon Nest. Extremely fluid, unique skill trees that required skill, thought and engagement. The bosses were also challenging, interactive and memorable, such as the Manticore Nest Boss, (moving around boss, avoiding attacks, reading its moves, varied skill set), the Typhoon Krag Nest, (movement, taking cover, utilizing space).
I also point to Skyforge’s combat and boss mechanics, like Thanatos (multiple phases, party cooperation, environmental hazards, environment interaction, usage of the whole room, massive epic boss battle). An example of hybrid combat is Revelation Online, and the DarkFall Dungeon Boss (movement, have to pay attention to boss mechanics, and trophy from boss body). These bosses were memorable and made me feel accomplished, had their own unique character and challenges, the immersive feeling of being in their lair or home, and just having fun and feeling winded afterwards. Feeling like you earned that win, and worked for it.
Now I understand these have instanced areas, which AOC does not, among other differences that may cause different challenges and hurdles. I also realize what I’ve seen is still in production, and the team may be working on implementing a lot of this, and/or more, I just wanted to add a perspective that I’m not sure if has been voiced yet, while the game is in the developing stage where it will be most constructive.
All respect and credit to the hard work and effort the AOC team has been putting into the game. Your passion for the game and its player base makes me hopeful and so excited to play, so thank you so much for making this dream, I think many tired MMORPG players have had, a reality. I just want to help make the game the best it can be, so thank you for having an open conversation and feedback with your community. Much love and support, I can’t wait to play!
DISCLAIMER-I am aware that things are still in production and are likely to change, and my concerns may naturally be resolved. This is meant strictly as a suggestion while things are being developed.
Ashes has talked about how important engaging content is to their vision of the game, especially combat. However, I feel like the boss battle left a lot to be desired. Since boss battles from dungeons or raids are the primary and most challenging kind of content for the PVE side, if it is lacking then the PVE side of the game may be as well. (PVE combat that is).
There was a lack of boss mechanics, especially movement. The pyroclastic wyrm took maybe three steps to reach the players once aggro was gained, and stood in the same spot for the duration of the fight. I feel like, one, not only is this fairly boring, it is a missed chance to use and show off the beautiful and large boss room that the dungeon has. It has been said that the AOC world should feel huge, with large sprawling dungeons, and in this dungeon, there was a huge cavern, but the boss stayed in one spot the entire time, and only changed which direction it faced a handful of times.
I think one, the boss could have skills that cause it to move, from a couple steps forward or backward to repositioning itself to take a swipe or use a breath attack. In my experience there are many mechanics, from leaps, dashes, teleports, going underground, climbing walls, and flying (especially for the wyrm). Not that I think every boss should make players chase them around the room, or run, but I think some movement is important, whether dodging, chasing or avoiding aoe attacks, being forced to move because this giant monster is pushing you around, or environmental hazards. There was also a general lack of skills for the boss, only 3 main ones that I noticed, that only targeted the immediate space around or in front of it. I could see especially for this dungeon, a use of room wide breath attacks, attacks from flight, maybe falling stalagmites from the ceiling. There could also be a use of the environment, while there is lava, there could be a rise in lava, causing players to run to islands, or dodging falling rocks, crumbling surfaces, etc.
There was no mutli-phases for this boss battle, it was essentially the same, just spam skills in the same spot until it died, (other than mobs) no change in tempo or the rhythm of the battle. I feel like this also causes a lack of Boss personality, it doesn’t feel like a real enemy, its robotic, predictable, and frankly boring. In my experience the best boss battles were those with changing phases of the battle, and a personality, some games like Vindictus even classify the different behaviors of boss, from DPS, to a kiting type, or ranged.
The Boss room, is supposed to be the Boss’s lair, its home and I feel like some evidence of it living there tells a story and adds to immersion. This mighty creature, this huge wyrm, should feel like its fighting for its life, not just an angry piñata. An increasing desperateness as it loses health, changing skill sets through different stages of battle.
Some of the best examples I have are mainly from Vindictus, (also an example of action combat in general), like the battle with the Juggernaut (impactful, very memorable, suspenseful, heavy movement, crawling on walls, strong boss personality), Guardian of the East (flying around, shooting lightning from the sky, leaps, active fighting creature), Havan, (environmental hazards, pillars to take cover with, because of sandstorm, and things flying through the air, hard to see because of storm) and the Blood Lord (mobility, changing phases, change of pace) just to name a few. Another one of my favorites, especially for action combat is Dragon Nest. Extremely fluid, unique skill trees that required skill, thought and engagement. The bosses were also challenging, interactive and memorable, such as the Manticore Nest Boss, (moving around boss, avoiding attacks, reading its moves, varied skill set), the Typhoon Krag Nest, (movement, taking cover, utilizing space).
I also point to Skyforge’s combat and boss mechanics, like Thanatos (multiple phases, party cooperation, environmental hazards, environment interaction, usage of the whole room, massive epic boss battle). An example of hybrid combat is Revelation Online, and the DarkFall Dungeon Boss (movement, have to pay attention to boss mechanics, and trophy from boss body). These bosses were memorable and made me feel accomplished, had their own unique character and challenges, the immersive feeling of being in their lair or home, and just having fun and feeling winded afterwards. Feeling like you earned that win, and worked for it.
Now I understand these have instanced areas, which AOC does not, among other differences that may cause different challenges and hurdles. I also realize what I’ve seen is still in production, and the team may be working on implementing a lot of this, and/or more, I just wanted to add a perspective that I’m not sure if has been voiced yet, while the game is in the developing stage where it will be most constructive.
All respect and credit to the hard work and effort the AOC team has been putting into the game. Your passion for the game and its player base makes me hopeful and so excited to play, so thank you so much for making this dream, I think many tired MMORPG players have had, a reality. I just want to help make the game the best it can be, so thank you for having an open conversation and feedback with your community. Much love and support, I can’t wait to play!
4
Comments
I ABSOLUTELY AGREE. That was the one thing that stuck out to me the most. When they were showing the dungeon 2 times. This MASSIVE dungeon space, you have to get through a TON of mobs to get to the boss... and somehow, that dragon felt... "not bossy enough"? It wasn't THAT big of a dragon, so I get that you call it a wyrm, because it looks like one. And you gave AMAZING examples from games that do the BEST job of boss battles I know. I've played Vindictus and Dragon nest, so I know the surprise when the Boss Monster ACTUALLY ENGAGED in the combat with us, even the first one, Giant Polar Bear. I felt... fear. I was afraid more of a giant polar bear than ANY boss monster from WoW. Because they have absolutely ZERO presence and they don't engage in the fight, in my eyes.
Very good example are these videos from Vindictus (Mabinogi heroes):
Ancient Elchulus:
Siglint:
Lakoria (NON-RAID BOSS):
White Tyrant (First memorable side story related non-raid boss):
The way the bosses interact with the characters, make them stagger, dodge, use skills that let them dodge even further... It's amazing. You can't just stand around and press skills, you have to ACTUALLY ENGAGE in the fight and FEEL the way the boss is moving, so you can retaliate properly. Also, try to focus (in the White Tyrant video) on the way the people react to the Bear. They are actually afraid of what might happen! The boss has such presence! If you look back to your first few boss monster in WoW (for example)... did you have this reaction? I'd bet my left hand you didn't. Because it's... slow. Without presence, overall. It just plainly s*cks. Nothing more going on than that. ._.
All the bosses in WoW (for example) just stand around, exist, and let themselves get killed, slowly, while only being different in the amount of damage they do, or can take, and how many people you need to take them down. EVERY boss felt the same to me, in WoW. Which is definitely NOT a good thing for an MMO. It would definitely lower my expectations for the game, if they make the boss fights as boring as in WoW.
The final boss in Lineage 2, I think... Valakas was the 4 winged dragon name, was an example on how to TRY to do it. The dragon moved a lot, had presence, but I still think the interactions with characters could've been more on the side of stagger effects, throwing away, than in just plain old high damage skills and so on.
In the end, I guess they will do it their own way, anyway. I just hope they don't make it boring and that the bosses will be WAY more massive than the Wyrm we saw in the dungeon.
For placeholders and Alpha, the situation is excellent. I too can't wait to see Boss Phases, High End PvE and PvE Challenges, but, Placeholders won't have these things. Placeholders aren't the final iteration.
U.S. East
1. They had developer buffs on them, making them ridiculously strong for their level (You saw how they could oneshot other people)
2. That was a LvL 10 dungeon. The dragon is not something to be feared too much, it isnt even called a dragon in-game but rather a Pyroclasticwyrm or something like that. They have shown a TRUE dragon once, where a claw was as tall as a player.
3. They didnt have lava damage implemented yet, i believe.
We need to wait and see for higher level dungeons to cast any judgment.^^
I am aware of that, and I am most definitely not belittleing the dungeon. It was an amazing dungeon. As I said. Even the wyrm looked cool. But when they fought it, it had no presence, is what I was saying. By the way, that polar bear video from Vindictus... is lvl 16-20 boss monster. Not too far off, I would say.
This is the FIRST boss battle from Vindictus, just for comparison:
And keep in mind, that the video is from 2013... Imagine how much better it could be NOW, in 2020!
Look at the way the boss acts. How lively it is. Of course the game is plainly action based, so it makes sense that in AoC this will never happen. But I would say that it is FAR BETTER inspiration, than ANY boss monster from WoW. <<< This is basically my point, overall.
The thing is that they can do that in Invictus, because they have instanced Quests. They can make the destructible environment etc because they dont have to care for what will happen later on.
It is interesting how they did it all, but we could just as well look for Monster Hunter World as a comparison.
Edit:
I closely watched both boss fights and... The gnoll boss did 3 attack sequences... a tripple overheadsmash after running at someone, a whirlwind and a combination of bth after reaching 50% HP.
Oh my god, please no. Monster hunter is making all the bosses feel like "pillars" that just soak up damage, and the combat system is repetetive garbage.
The environment is, indeed, only possible thanks to the instanced based mechanic. Because in Vindictus (Invictus is not a thing, I think
But! That doesn't mean that the bosses cannot act this way out of the instanced dungeon aswell. Sure, they might not be destroying their surroundings, but they can interact with characters far better, than they do in wow, is my point.
I think that Vindictus (Still think that Invictus sounds cooler ;D) IS just like Monster Hunter World. INstanced Quests? Check. Main Hub? Check. Bosses with multiple stages/Healthbars that act as damage sponges? Check. Repetetive Attacksequences that you can study for 3min and then use to fillet the boss? Check.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
If it smells like chicken, tastes like chicken and has the same texture as chicken. Then it is chicken. (Or crocodile i dunno)
I have to disagree. Seems like you never played the game. The combat system in monster hunter is just about mashing the attack button. In Vindictus (at least on pc) you have to be smart about it. Left button is your basic attack and right button is your Smash attack. Your SMASH button does something different, depending after which basic attack you pressed it. Usually, after one basic smash is a finisher, after two you put your non-boss target in the air, after 3 its combo follow-up and after 4 its a heavy hitting finisher. But this differs a lot, depending on the character you are playing. Plus, there are skills that can be used by holding and releasing the smash button, changes to your combos, more combos added and stuff like that. As far as I know, nothing like that is added in the Monster Hunter game. No active skills like in Vindictus either, for example the transformation at lvl 40 into paladin/dark knight. And don't let me get started on the NEED to repair your gear in the middle of a RAID or something. If you break your gear, you lose the buffs it gives you, but can be easily repaired and loses durability by repairing (depending on how bad you are at repairing).
And the bosses are not like attack sponges. They react to your damage as well. For example, Karok, the big dude, can stop a certain type of channeled boss attack (one on every boss I think) bare handed (!) and make it possible for his team to attack while doing so. Other characters have similiar interactions with the bosses as well. For example, the Ranger (can't remember his name), can jump behind a neck of boss monsters, and shoot through their neck, for a finisher-type of skill. Which has to be properly timed, of course. Otherwise, it doesn't work. Nothing like that is present in Monster Hunter either.
Oh and the attack sequences are maybe easy to study, but pretty hard to use, since it's action based. Your damage get's higher, the higher combo you have, without getting hit. It's about skill, not about how much money or time you've given the game (at least the combat system, sadly only that). And the mage is different also. You power up the mana "inside of you" and depending on how much mana you've accumulated (3 stages are max I think) there is a possibility of having 4 spells I think in every power up sequence. So even the mage is action based and has no channeling or standing around skills and has to participate in the combat. Also not present in Monster Hunter, since there is no mages, as far as I know.
If both Vindictus and Monster hunter smell like chicken to you, there is no wonder why all the mmo's go for WoW type of gameplay... Because you don't care about it and find it boring, apparently. Which is sad, because Vindictus is one of the games, that are amazing, but got absolutely killed by P2W and the "Everything for everyone" mentality, that Steven hates probably just as much as me.^^
I dont think that you have ever played Monster Hunter if you think that you just need to mash the attack button.... xD
After reading though your description: That is exactly how Monster Hunter plays :'D
MH HAS active transformations and all classes also have special interactions with the bosses. The Glaive user can do air acrobatics, while the warhorn user can buff allies with specific attacck combos. The Switchblade can deal devastating damage in a flowing tidal mechanic, while the greatsword can interrupt even charges from horned monsters.
Well, I never played it. You are right in that. Felt like it, from watching a few gameplays, tho. Anyways, both of us are missing the point. That game system and the path they took is purely action based. Which is not, and should not!, be the case with AoC. I just wanted to point out how bad WoW is in this aspect and what could Intrepid studios do to make it better, by giving a few examples. That's my point the whole time.
So, let's move on and provide help and suggestions by giving examples to the game we are both looking forward to playing, instead of giving it non-helpful arguments that will never end, because of our different tastes in games.
I know! Me too! But I am trying to hold it in, for the sake of this game!