Bard the maestro of group play!

Hi ashes fans,

Since alpha 1 is somewhat close it got me thinking a lot about the classes that we will be able to test. I think it was jeffrey that mentioned in the last dev update that 5 classes are gonna be present in the first test. With tank , mage, cleric and ranger kind of confirmed since we saw some gameplay of them in the recent videos, there will be 1 spot open. I highly suspect that last spot will be either the fighter or assasin class which means the summoner and bard will likely be added later.
My guess is that the designers havent quite yet figured what they are doing with the 3 other classes, so i thought why not share some of my thoughts on a idea i have for the bard class.

My idea actually doesnt revolve around the individual spells of the bard, it´s more about their unique potential that they could host as an AOE buff class, completely changing the playstyle identity that the 8 player partys could opt into.

So here i go:
The idea is that the bard has about 3 aura spells that effect every player in your group in a ~6 meter radius, lasting about 3 seconds with a 20 seconds cooldown. The auras cant be casted simultanously or at least they have diminishing returns.
Those auras can be augmented through the augment system that ashes already has, so that they can differ highly in their effects depending on which augment they chose.
Some examples:
Fortify (Tank augment): Increased dmg resistance
Warcry (Fighter augment): Dmg increase for the next spell casted
Charge (Bard augment): Increased movement moving forward
Force of nature (Summoner augment): A fairy that spawns on your allies shoulder, giving them a shield
Kite (Ranger augment): An omnidirectional movement speed buff to kite enemies
Replenish (Cleric augment): A regeneration aura for heals, maybe also mana
Cloak (Rouge augment): A invis cloak for a few seconds with the condition that the group and bard remains stationary
Rage (Mage augment): A dmg buff steadily increasing with the spells casted in the time frame
I got some more stuff but those seem fitting with the augments

The idea behind it is that the bard can mix and match those auras, so a combo with 3 auras like (Fortity| Rage|Cavalry) is entirely possible so that groups can specialize on something.
Now this could open up cool ideas for group compositions. Some combos i could see being interesting:
Bulwark->(Fortify|Force of nature|Replenish) making the group an immovable object that can stand their ground for long.
Cavalry-> (Charge|Charge|Charge) super mobile group that can roam many hotspots in large battles to swing the momentum
Ambusher-> (Cloak|Warcry|Charge) a group that excells at hiding and killing others once they appear.
Besieger-> (Kite|Rage|Warcry) good for ranged groups that need high dmg output while closing or gaining distances
Ramm-> (Charge|Fortify|Rage) for initiating into enemies and mowing them down, good for melee centric groups
Warband->(Replenish|Kite|Fortify)
So groups with entirely different focuses are possible, adding flavor to your group composition. It could work with large battles where you strategize moves, change large fight dynamics and work out interdepencies between groups.

Also since this idea only excels at group play, the bard´s spells should only transform into an Aura when they join a group. Otherwise i see bards maybe having a hard time soloing content all the time.

Now of course this only a suggestion, but i would love to see something like that in ashes since it does incentivises group coordination , communication and offers a lot of variety on how you could approach group play.
Any thoughts ?

Edit:
Please dont focus on the specifics. The range, duration and so on was not the reason of the post. Things like that would have to be tested and adjusted.
I wanted to convey the idea of adding depths and flavor to group compositions and get your perspective on it

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Comments

Yuyukoyay

It would be nice if it was the bard because that class might need the most tuning than any other class but summoner.

Songcaller

I do not like your suggestions. Most Bards in other games have at least an 8 Second Buff Duration. The synchronicity required means a 3 second Buff would barely allow for 1 second of Response if the strongest attacks are 2 second cast times. I also do not like the 6 meter range. 6 Meter Ranges are too restrictive.

Damokles

I read this title and suddenly got the image of Soul from Soul Eater on his piano. xD

arsnn

Neurath wrote: »

I do not like your suggestions. Most Bards in other games have at least an 8 Second Buff Duration. The synchronicity required means a 3 second Buff would barely allow for 1 second of Response if the strongest attacks are 2 second cast times. I also do not like the 6 meter range. 6 Meter Ranges are too restrictive.

Hm , please dont focus on the specifics. The range, duration and so on was not the reason of the post. Things like that would have to be tested and adjusted.
I wanted to convey the idea of adding depths and flavor to group compositions!

Songcaller

Yeah I mean, I like the actual skills you've pulled together. I am hoping Bard will be a cross with FF14 Bard and Aion Bard. I haven't heard much about Bard. I appreciate the Bard can DPS and Buff. I wouldn't want all skills to be Auras and Buffs though (We can only have 10-12 Active on the Bar) unless they did DPS at the same time.

arsnn

Neurath wrote: »

Yeah I mean, I like the actual skills you've pulled together. I am hoping Bard will be a cross with FF14 Bard and Aion Bard. I haven't heard much about Bard. I appreciate the Bard can DPS and Buff. I wouldn't want all skills to be Auras and Buffs though (We can only have 10-12 Active on the Bar) unless they did DPS at the same time.

Ye for sure the bard needs some juicy single target stuff. I´d like to see 3 spells in the aura/aoe segment though

Warhog53

Bard in original EQ has a similar playstyle to what you suggest. I absolutely loved that class. The skills were aoe based and had roughly a 2s cast time but an 8-10s duration, meaning you were constantly "twisting" songs to fit the encounter. Additionally they could be toggled on permanently for things like med breaks, and were able to be "cast" while moving.

There were detrimental effects to debuff enemies too, which made Bard reasonably ok to solo play

Plixen

We have seen the rogue too, so i assume that's the 5th one.
Think someone said it was the rogue/ranger we saw, can't remember what that class was called.

Damokles

Okay I took my time to actually try and analyze what you wrote here.

It seems like a novel concept to be shure, but it would not be really achievable in the way that you imagine.

You seem to want an augmentation based skill that would change its flavour depending on the secondary class right?
What would the OG skill be and what would it buff? Because augments dont give totally new abilities but augment already existing ones?

"The idea is that the bard has about 3 aura spells that effect every player in your group in a ~6 meter radius, lasting about 3 seconds with a 20 seconds cooldown."

This is another problem... One player cant choose more then one secondary class. All three of those auras would be from your secondary class.
I could get behind the idea of having a aura spell with three charges, which you can either spam at the same time to stack the effect, or to stagger them to prolong the duration of the buff (which would actually make a interesting gameplay in my opinion)

Example:
You have an Aura that would normally raise defense and health regen during combat.
Duration: 5sec
Cooldown: 30sec/Charge, 3 Charges

With the Fighter secondary you could augment it that it would also give 5% attackspeed.

You can now decide, if you want to use them right at the beginning of combat at once to get a 15% buff, or if you trickle in the buff to have a near constant 5% increase.

arsnn

Damokles wrote: »

Okay I took my time to actually try and analyze what you wrote here.

It seems like a novel concept to be shure, but it would not be really achievable in the way that you imagine.

You seem to want an augmentation based skill that would change its flavour depending on the secondary class right?
What would the OG skill be and what would it buff? Because augments dont give totally new abilities but augment already existing ones?

"The idea is that the bard has about 3 aura spells that effect every player in your group in a ~6 meter radius, lasting about 3 seconds with a 20 seconds cooldown."

This is another problem... One player cant choose more then one secondary class. All three of those auras would be from your secondary class.
I could get behind the idea of having a aura spell with three charges, which you can either spam at the same time to stack the effect, or to stagger them to prolong the duration of the buff (which would actually make a interesting gameplay in my opinion)

Example:
You have an Aura that would normally raise defense and health regen during combat.
Duration: 5sec
Cooldown: 30sec/Charge, 3 Charges

With the Fighter secondary you could augment it that it would also give 5% attackspeed.

You can now decide, if you want to use them right at the beginning of combat at once to get a 15% buff, or if you trickle in the buff to have a near constant 5% increase.

Ye the way i thought about it would be an extra system exclusively for the bard. He would be the only one to have the choice to go for several augments, but only for the few aura spells he has.
I like your idea , it would to the job also really good and not overwhelm people and not confuse the players participating so much.
My approach would give more options and mixes, but i dont know if that is desired.In battles groups will have to decide in split seconds.
This got me thinking, maybe the bard should display some icon above his head or have a distintive colour for the aura. Groups could better evaluate the situation dependent on the enemies group focus/aura like:
"Oh shit guys a Ramm (Charge|Fortify|Rage) group is coming, lets kite back and play it slow".

Damokles

@arsnn I dont think that any class should get special mechanics like extra augmentation directions etc.
That would just open the floodgates for complaints sadly

I am all behind the idea to give bards a huge a** symbol above their heads to symbolize what they currently buff. A swinging sword for damage, a boot for movementspeed etc

Songcaller

Would prefer subtler ways to show buffs and debuffs. If it's not the healer targeted first, it would be the buffer.

arsnn

Damokles wrote: »

@arsnn I dont think that any class should get special mechanics like extra augmentation directions etc.
That would just open the floodgates for complaints sadly

I am all behind the idea to give bards a huge a** symbol above their heads to symbolize what they currently buff. A swinging sword for damage, a boot for movementspeed etc

Well its just a layer on why those buffs exist. You could also just give bards the choice of 1 million different kind of auras completely detached from the augment system and have the same outcome for the abilities.
I dont quite get why classes shouldnt have different quirks and why people should complain about such stuff.

Im just watching an anime called kingdom which is about huge wars. The units carry flags with them to identify them. This could also work for the 8 man parties

I really appreciate to bounce ideas off someone!

Damokles

arsnn wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

@arsnn I dont think that any class should get special mechanics like extra augmentation directions etc.
That would just open the floodgates for complaints sadly

I am all behind the idea to give bards a huge a** symbol above their heads to symbolize what they currently buff. A swinging sword for damage, a boot for movementspeed etc

Well its just a layer on why those buffs exist. You could also just give bards the choice of 1 million different kind of auras completely detached from the augment system and have the same outcome for the abilities.
I dont quite get why classes shouldnt have different quirks and why people should complain about such stuff.

Im just watching an anime called kingdom which is about huge wars. The units carry flags with them to identify them. This could also work for the 8 man parties

I really appreciate to bounce ideas off someone!

I read the manga^^ it gets really cool!

Beeper

I like the idea of stacking buffs, but it should be more intricate and involved than just hit x button and winning. Perhaps hitting the right 'notes' or abilities to combo your buffs, and continue to work and keep them up on the nearby targets. Something more immersive, that requires more attention than 'hit button, buff all people.'

Neurath wrote: »

Would prefer subtler ways to show buffs and debuffs. If it's not the healer targeted first, it would be the buffer.

100% agreed. It should be subtle, but noticeable to those that look closely. Having a giant blinking arrow over your head is a great way of getting killed.

Damokles

Bearheart wrote: »

I like the idea of stacking buffs, but it should be more intricate and involved than just hit x button and winning. Perhaps hitting the right 'notes' or abilities to combo your buffs, and continue to work and keep them up on the nearby targets. Something more immersive, that requires more attention than 'hit button, buff all people.'

Neurath wrote: »

Would prefer subtler ways to show buffs and debuffs. If it's not the healer targeted first, it would be the buffer.

100% agreed. It should be subtle, but noticeable to those that look closely. Having a giant blinking arrow over your head is a great way of getting killed.

Its bold of you to assume, that I want to survive the conflict.

I like the idea of comboing buff abilities to prolong the buffs.

arsnn

Bearheart wrote: »

I like the idea of stacking buffs, but it should be more intricate and involved than just hit x button and winning. Perhaps hitting the right 'notes' or abilities to combo your buffs, and continue to work and keep them up on the nearby targets. Something more immersive, that requires more attention than 'hit button, buff all people.'

Neurath wrote: »

Would prefer subtler ways to show buffs and debuffs. If it's not the healer targeted first, it would be the buffer.

100% agreed. It should be subtle, but noticeable to those that look closely. Having a giant blinking arrow over your head is a great way of getting killed.

Yes, i can see the argument of just pressing a button to have such a big impact on your group fight being underwhelming. A more intricate and engaging system can be more fun for the bard player.
But also take into consideration that the auras a more intendend to be a group coordination layer on which the individual is supposed to time his spells and movement towards.
The bard guy screams in voice chat "Using charge guys" and everyone is on the same page to initiate into the enemys. The actuall skill component of combat is up to the individual, the aura group component is for group coordination and adding flavor to group play.

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