Vertical Combat.

neeko2lo

Hello everyone,

I am aware that the combat of Ashes is still fairly bare bones. But there is one dimension of combat that is almost always missing in MMORPG's which is vertical combat.
A quick example before I go into detail: https://youtu.be/txtHW2DYFLc

^What you can see in this video a certain degree of verticality in a tab targeting focused ArcheAge. (@StevenSharif knows what what I'm talking about)
This allows the combat to feel more "free" in a way. Adding an additional layer to dodging/hitting abilities just feels organic and creates outstanding moments.

So my question is: Is there any degree of verticality planned in Ashes? Would you guys like a certain degree of that in the first place ?
Would love to hear everyones perspective.

Neeko2lo

Songcaller

When I mention 'Mobility in Combat' I refer to 'freer movement'. So far, many of the skills we have seen are static. There won't be much 'Vertical Combat' because Flying Mounts are limited and Gliding Mounts only work from high points to low points, not even sure you can summon a Gliding Mount on the move.

Archeage combat also has Animation Cancelling, and, there will be limited to no Animation Cancelling in Ashes.

The combat will be improved according to Steven, but, in what direction it is not clear at this time.

Edit: Even 'backpeddling' and 'strafe' will have reduced movement speed compared to 'forward motion'.

Fenrisulf

Well, Ashes seems to be taking a lot of their inspiration from ArcheAge, but they mentioned that they want to keep flying mounts to an absolute minimum, roughly 10 or 20 people at most. With that route in mind, I wouldn't imagine them adding Gliders into that game as that would kinda defeat the purpose of having those rare mounts. So unless they have some way to actually reach those heights during PvP I doubt they care too much about Vertical combat else they wouldn't give themself that limitation in the first place.

Personally I really enjoyed the freedom that Archeage gave you combat wise, so I really hope they go the same route in Ashes of Creation.

Revo Send

Looks cool.. seems cool, probably incredibly hard to do

CaptnChuck

I'd personally like to have combat that is less involved with accessories and more on the skills itself. The complexity of the combat should come from the skill system, movement and timing your abilities correctly, not from the accessories and mounts that you have.

Damokles

I am all for vertical combat, but not out of reach vertical if you get me.
Like that one time, where the person started out 20m in the air and just started nuking people from above, that is too much in my opinion.

Another thing... I didnt really play Archage, but there was this one scene where the player kicked another person from their flying mount. The content creator didnt recieve damage, while the other nearly died... Did they use some kind of item or skill? Cause I am not a fan of such things

Songcaller

In Archeage you could get a Jump Pack (Rocket Booster) and enact 'Collision' which causes players to be killed upon impact/ground impact. It barely touched the initiator. Archeage is notorious for lack of balance. Some classes can one or two shot other players - Even those with gear scores of 17k or 18k. You could one or two shot them with a gear score of around 13k on some classes.

At least Ashes states combat will take 30-60 seconds for a kill.

Fenrisulf

Damokles wrote: »

I am all for vertical combat, but not out of reach vertical if you get me.
Like that one time, where the person started out 20m in the air and just started nuking people from above, that is too much in my opinion.

Half the skill is reaching those heights using the mobility you're given.

Damokles wrote: »

Another thing... I didnt really play Archage, but there was this one scene where the player kicked another person from their flying mount. The content creator didnt recieve damage, while the other nearly died... Did they use some kind of item or skill? Cause I am not a fan of such things

Some skills "reset" the fall height so to say. If you just drop from a high distance then you will die to fall damage but using certain abilities mitigate that.

Damokles

xfenrisulf wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

I am all for vertical combat, but not out of reach vertical if you get me.
Like that one time, where the person started out 20m in the air and just started nuking people from above, that is too much in my opinion.

Half the skill is reaching those heights using the mobility you're given.

Yes I do get that, but It just doesnt sit well with me that someone can just float down a mountain for example and start nuking people. Just my personal opinion though Totally fine from a game perspective xD

xfenrisulf wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

Another thing... I didnt really play Archage, but there was this one scene where the player kicked another person from their flying mount. The content creator didnt recieve damage, while the other nearly died... Did they use some kind of item or skill? Cause I am not a fan of such things

Some skills "reset" the fall height so to say. If you just drop from a high distance then you will die to fall damage but using certain abilities mitigate that.

And that is something that I dont like. If one falls and dies, then all should fall and die. It should be a deliberate decision to end anothers life by sacrificing your own.

DrStone

I don't think "Vertical Combat" is a thing... I can see some classes having skills that give them airborne time with possible combat but I dislike that idea since that would make the whole combat system
focused around that.

Fenrisulf

xfenrisulf wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

Another thing... I didnt really play Archage, but there was this one scene where the player kicked another person from their flying mount. The content creator didnt recieve damage, while the other nearly died... Did they use some kind of item or skill? Cause I am not a fan of such things

Some skills "reset" the fall height so to say. If you just drop from a high distance then you will die to fall damage but using certain abilities mitigate that.

And that is something that I dont like. If one falls and dies, then all should fall and die. It should be a deliberate decision to end anothers life by sacrificing your own.[/quote]

I disagree, it increases skill ceiling that you're able to reach the height your opponent is that, CC them off their mount/glider/etc and then somehow using your mobility skills to survive the drop while killing your opponent in the air. This the vertical combat that OP is talking about.

neeko2lo

Damokles wrote: »

I am all for vertical combat, but not out of reach vertical if you get me.
Like that one time, where the person started out 20m in the air and just started nuking people from above, that is too much in my opinion.

Another thing... I didnt really play Archage, but there was this one scene where the player kicked another person from their flying mount. The content creator didnt recieve damage, while the other nearly died... Did they use some kind of item or skill? Cause I am not a fan of such things

I do agree that too much of that could also divert attention from grounded combat which should 100% be the focus of the game. I would love some tidbits of verticality just to add that third dimension to the mix.

Songcaller

Have you even reviewed the Ashes Combat?

Vertical Combat is non-existent in the MMO. We had catfall boots in Apocalypse, but, whether they will translate into the MMO is anyone's guess.

Damokles

Neurath wrote: »

Have you even reviewed the Ashes Combat?

Vertical Combat is non-existent in the MMO. We had catfall boots in Apocalypse, but, whether they will translate into the MMO is anyone's guess.

The dash from APOC would make a good example for vertical combat in ashes ;D

(I know that it wont make it into the actual game, but i really liked throwing my character through the air xD)

neeko2lo

Neurath wrote: »

Have you even reviewed the Ashes Combat?

Vertical Combat is non-existent in the MMO. We had catfall boots in Apocalypse, but, whether they will translate into the MMO is anyone's guess.

I played a good amount of APOC and you could literally lunge into the air. I don't understand.

Songcaller

The issue is, we haven't seen The Hybrid System. It would be too difficult to balance Apoc Active Combat with Tab-Target Combat. If the Action Combat has no static skills and tab target has static skills the combat will be so poor it will drive thousands away.

Steven has said the combat will be worked on. This is why I can't give any specifics because we've seen both extremes and The Hybrid System should be middle-ground.

Damokles

neeko2lo wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Have you even reviewed the Ashes Combat?

Vertical Combat is non-existent in the MMO. We had catfall boots in Apocalypse, but, whether they will translate into the MMO is anyone's guess.

I played a good amount of APOC and you could literally lunge into the air. I don't understand.

Yes, the dash was awesome. I will really miss that.
Did you know that you could be faster than a mount with three dashes, while also climbing walls and slip through windows?
If you were really good, then you could even dash right into the upper windows to instantly get to the chests.

neeko2lo

Damokles wrote: »

neeko2lo wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Have you even reviewed the Ashes Combat?

Vertical Combat is non-existent in the MMO. We had catfall boots in Apocalypse, but, whether they will translate into the MMO is anyone's guess.

I played a good amount of APOC and you could literally lunge into the air. I don't understand.

Yes, the dash was awesome. I will really miss that.
Did you know that you could be faster than a mount with three dashes, while also climbing walls and slip through windows?
If you were really good, then you could even dash right into the upper windows to instantly get to the chests.

That was honestly the most fun I had in the game. Using the lunges vertically to reach a roof or a window.
Great fun.

Yuyukoyay

As long as it's not as bad as the movement from Dead By Daylight I'm pretty open to fluid combat from midair back to ground level as long as it's not too powerful at dodging certain skills. For flying mounts I have no idea. I don't know how strong the abilities they will have are. Won't really know for sure until someone gets one.

ServNiQ

We definitely know that the people who do have those giant flying mounts will have AoE skills, so I feel like we can only assume that means giant dragons torching the battlefield...

Jexz

I never played archage but that system looks like it would heavily favor ranged. Were there any viable melee classes and if so how did they balance it to make it work?

Honestly i hope ashes is nothing like this 2-3 shotting people from ranged does not offer a high skill ceiling.
The TTK is to fast for my taste.
Its hard to analyze since I didn't play but @ 0:50 does he vacuum while he drops in from the sky then does 2 aoes and kills multiple people?

Was this a gear requirement or only certain classes? very few people were using similar movement in the video.

Fenrisulf

Jexz wrote: »

I never played archage but that system looks like it would heavily favor ranged. Were there any viable melee classes and if so how did they balance it to make it work?

Honestly i hope ashes is nothing like this 2-3 shotting people from ranged does not offer a high skill ceiling.
The TTK is to fast for my taste.
Its hard to analyze since I didn't play but @ 0:50 does he vacuum while he drops in from the sky then does 2 aoes and kills multiple people?

Was this a gear requirement or only certain classes? very few people were using similar movement in the video.

ArcheAge was tab target and melee battlerage classes had lock on abilities that they could use on same elevation and special mobility skills that you could use uphill/downhill. Also when you get hit in the glider it instantly deactivates.

The play at 0:50 was something that mages could only do with animation cancelling and out gearing opponent big time. The video shows a lot of screen shake and camera movement but a lot of the things he does is just looking fancy.