[SUGGESTION] Ability to pick 2 subclasses and make it easy to switch between the two.

How would everyone feel about picking 2 favorite subclasses and being able to switch between them without incurring a cost? For those familiar with WoW, it's basically switching specs but you only get 2 and you have to pick 2 out of the 8 possible subclasses.

If the time and effort required to change your subclass becomes too inconvenient, I think the game might suffer from players feeling the need to pick only the "meta" subclass. This might lead players to feel that experimenting with other subclasses is too punishing and prevent them from doing so.

I don't believe we should be able to freely switch between all 8 subclasses, but what if we could just pick 2 that we could switch between, and then incur a cost when we want to reset those 2 picks? I want to be able to experiment with all of the different subclasses, but I don't want it to be too easy. If I could have 1 subclass that I really excel at (like for dungeons, raids, etc) and then another subclass that's more fun (like PVP, sieges, caravans, questing, exploring, or even gathering), I think that would be ideal.

Here's a hypothetical: Imagine that you're adventuring in an 8 man raid or dungeon and brought 1 tank, 2 healers, and 5 dps. Your group decides they need another healer. What do you do?

Do you kick a DPS and invite a healer that's really only needed for 1 encounter?
Do you continue smashing your face against the screen, hoping for the best?
Do you have someone run all the way back to town, respec, and then wait until they run all the way back?
Do you require guildies to stand around outside the entrance to the dungeon/raid so you can freely change up your group comp?

Now I know a cleric subclass won't be able to replace a cleric main. But if enough people could easily switch their subclass to cleric, that could be enough to allow a group to push past a certain encounter. Or what if a boss is immune or resistant to certain element types (or more susceptible to others), players could run into that problem as well.

With the inability to quickly teleport around while also being stuck in a single subclass, I think that puts more emphasis on making sure group composition is solid before you ever start out. Otherwise, groups may run into situations where players are asked to stand outside the dungeon/raid and wait around in case they are needed.

Thoughts?

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Comments

Yuyukoyay

oo boi.I'm not sure if that would go against their design philosophy or not, but it doesn't really sound like a good idea over just making alts.

Adlehyde

Based on your example, it seems you think it likely that a secondary archetype will be strong enough to change a primary into a healer class. This seems unlikely with what we know so far. (edit, I admit I skimmed over the sentence where you said exactly the opposite of this, but the notion of all or several jobs insta-swapping to sub cleric sounds like a bad idea)

In general, I'd say ideas like this are best held until we know exactly how much the secondary archetype will augment the primary archetype in the first place, but in this particular case I think the idea itself kind of goes against the entire idea of the game.

We already know that secondary archetypes can be changed, but not easily, and I have to believe that this is steven's design on purpose.

Daedrik45

If you come from a certain game, you have gotten used to changing specs literally whenever you want and being able to change talents in your spec when you teleport to a dungeon..... I think people are confusing the secondary class to perhaps a talent tree. Choice has to matter

Damokles

This would feel too much like WoW im sorry, but... It cost me my soul once and it took everything for me to realize that,

daxiongmao87

I honestly don't like being able to switch a core component like your classes easily, even secondary. It takes away from character identity.

Nagash

Not really a fan to be honest

Vhaeyne

No, you can change your sub class through work if you feel it is under powered. Right now WOW is having a crisis of opinion in the community over the fact that the devs want to bring back the "choices have consequences" philosophy with the covenant system. That whole community is so tainted by carebears that the idea that you have to think about your chooses is offensive in WOW. The whole appeal of this game to me is that they are taking the best systems from old Hardcore sandbox MMO's and bring them in the modern era. Sometimes "Quality of life" improvements are bad for the game. This would be one of those times.

nidriks

Rift had a similar sort of idea some years back, and in development for the game. It sounded great back then. Of course, Trion ruined it by giving everyone the ability to self heal and a fantastic idea was dead before release.

I actually think, in this case, the lone addition gives scope for enough variety that giving people the chance to switch is not altogether needed.

I would like to see three possible things however.

1. I'd like to see a post max level system of advancement. A skill tree with a variety of options to further identify your role. It is in this tree that a ranger could maybe take some healing abilities or perhaps more martial prowess.
2. Maybe have more classes that have a heal. Atm it seems like it is just the cleric and the bard. Depending upon when we get the second class augment then that could be a lot of game time with just two healers. Could rangers have a small heal, as they did in EQ? Just call it first aid.
3. I'm sure summoners will have a pet heal, but I want Intrepid to make it much easier for a summoner pet to tank a group. In EQ2 it was a huge effort for your tank pet to tank a group full time. It would give an option if tanks are unavailable.

Nykz

I can defiantly see your point on the meta aspect but I feel like I will be fine without switching "specs". I feel like you should be determined to the class you end up with and being "only" this class could make you really identify with your character.

Also if you have a group have guild members/friends i really strengthens the bound between players when you completed a lot of dungeons together and you know you can rely on each other to be there when needed.

Beeper

Not a fan of the idea.

I like the weight of choosing a secondary archetype. Being able to change it on a whim trivializes your choice. You should be able to change it, but that too should be a weighty decision.

Damokles

I have to add, that there should be a short duration, where you can switch between secondary classes after reaching lvl 25.

Example:
You reach lvl 25 and you get to choose your secondary class. Maybe you dont know what you want to go.

It would be nice for there to be an instanced room, where you could freely choose between secondaries to see all possible augments for example.

Beeper

Damokles wrote: »

It would be nice for there to be an instanced room, where you could freely choose between secondaries to see all possible augments for example.

This is not a bad idea. If the game teaches you the differences at the point where you choose, it will mitigate a lot of the buyers regret down the line.

But who am I kidding? Streamers will tear this information apart and post min/maxing guides before the game is even launched.

Undead Canuck

If we allow people to have 2 subclasses, why not 3? How about 4. Oh wait, just let everyone have all the subclasses so that they can switch them up on the fly.

Please no. They have a design idea, and it looks good. Why change a fundamental part of the game?

Drek

God no, i wonder will people keep asking / suggesting things that directly contradict Intrepid's philosophy and vision ?!?

They're on the record stating they want choice to mater !

BUT even if they haven't yet been on the record about it, why do people want an easymode ?!?

This constant need to have an better optimized character for the scenario you're in simply at the press of a button to switch spec for no reason other then to have it easier, has to stop !
It already ruined many games, WoW most notably.

Here's a hypothetical: Imagine that you're adventuring in an 8 man raid or dungeon and brought 1 tank, 2 healers, and 5 dps. Your group decides they need another healer. What do you do?

Do you kick a DPS and invite a healer that's really only needed for 1 encounter?
Do you continue smashing your face against the screen, hoping for the best?
Do you have someone run all the way back to town, respec, and then wait until they run all the way back?
Do you require guildies to stand around outside the entrance to the dungeon/raid so you can freely change up your group comp?

None of the above, because you should adapt !

Even for the best players there's guaranteed room for improvement, people taking unnecessary damage, not using consumables, maybe not using CC or proper target priority...there's a laundry list of things to do ....

And guess what, if you went trough the laundry list and your group still fails that's fine !

Maybe the only thing your group will learn is that they need 3 healers for their runs, but just know that chances of one encounter in a dungeon suddenly requiring more healers is very slim (unless you look at WoW since switching specc was made so easy and thus designed with it in mind) as that would be bad design.

I know very well how dull(er) raiding became in WoW when instead of people optimizing and trying harder they opted for the easy way that was presented to them and said "we should have one/two more healers for this boss, who can offheal ?" when the reality is just people failing at mechanics.

The answer to failure isn't asking for things to get easier in one way or the other, it's to learn and overcome as it makes the payoff that much more sweeter.

Beeper

Drek wrote: »

The answer to failure isn't asking for things to get easier in one way or the other, it's to learn and overcome as it makes the payoff that much more sweeter.

just in case anyone missed this gem.

Niraada

Personally not a fan. Within a given secondary archetype, there are already going to be 4 augments you can apply to your skills.

Even in the case where you do feel the need to switch your secondary archetype, you're able to do that with sufficient effort.

Being able to switch specs on the fly (I think) goes against the design philosophies and central pillars of AoC.

Time and time again, Steven has said it: Choices matter, and they should have consequences.

If you're dissatisfied with the secondary archetype you've chosen, then spend the effort to change it. Or don't.

BaSkA_9x2

I would like for primary and secondary class changes to be possible, but not easy to do.

Making class changes, or changes to any big decisions to your character, something trivial goes against what I think a good game must have: consequences to every decision.

Grails

Is there going to be a way to preview in game what the augments are for your skills, before you pick the 2ndary archetype?

Ravudha

Completely dislike the idea of players changing classes/specs in this way. Class choice should matter and characters should have skill gaps so they rely on others.

TheLegend27

Doing this would make the decision of picking your role matter less. And much like in other games, people will just pick whatever without too much thought.
I'm against, unfortunately.

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