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Will Same Primary/Secondary be the Preferred Class?
PlagueMonk
Member
I know we have been told that the secondary class is the 'flavor' BUT I got to thinking about some of the classes.....
I can see with some that the secondary will be flavor but others, maybe not quite so much. Take the X / Cleric for example. I would expect, if my secondary is Cleric, that I gain some healing abilities. Obviously not nearly as good as the primary but enough to say off heal. That imho is a bit more than "flavor". Same with a X / Tank, I would expect, if I had Tank as my secondary that it would give me some ability to Tank (again maybe to the level of 'Off-Tank'. Gaining brand new abilities is a bit different than just changing or adding flavor.
I can think of some exceptions to this but in general, do you think those looking for "the best of the best" for their top level raid will want someone who has doubled down on their class as opposed to someone who chose a different secondary?
I can see with some that the secondary will be flavor but others, maybe not quite so much. Take the X / Cleric for example. I would expect, if my secondary is Cleric, that I gain some healing abilities. Obviously not nearly as good as the primary but enough to say off heal. That imho is a bit more than "flavor". Same with a X / Tank, I would expect, if I had Tank as my secondary that it would give me some ability to Tank (again maybe to the level of 'Off-Tank'. Gaining brand new abilities is a bit different than just changing or adding flavor.
I can think of some exceptions to this but in general, do you think those looking for "the best of the best" for their top level raid will want someone who has doubled down on their class as opposed to someone who chose a different secondary?
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What you get is to enhance already existing abilities from your main class with secondary class mechanics.
Say you are a fighter and you have a Parry skill, and then you get the Cleric secondary class:
Standard Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks, and deal x% back to the attacker.
Cleric Augmented Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks and heal for x% of the parried damage.
Or for a bard:
Heroic Strike (Standard) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec.
Heroic Strike (Cleric Augment) - Enhance your weapon, on the next hit you deal x% additional damage and enhance all allied melee damage for x% for the next 10sec. You also create a small patch of holy group beneath your feet, healing allies for x every second for 5sec.
For damage classes, picking there same class will make them the best at there respective damage type. so mage mage and ranger ranger will probably be optimal in fights where they are at full effect. Rogue and fighter are a little weird for me as they are supposed to both be physical melee damage so it's hard to say if being pure rogue or pure fighter would be optimal for melee dps. One might be the dominant melee dps secondary.
For all damage classes, their preferred secondary could change based off a fight. There might be fights where one damage type is better than another so picking a secondary that buffs that might be superior then staying pure.
I feel like things are a little different for the other classes. I could see a tank both wanting to dip into more damage, support, or healing if they think they have enough support to survive. Same thing for cleric where there might be times that they can keep their party topped off without going pure cleric so they dip into something else. I could definitely see summoner picking up other secondaries so they can better perform one role in a group. Bard, it's hard to say, Bard bard might be best or maybe they are better off picking up another secondary depending on the situation.
Once again, all my speculation.
There is also the fact that you can get gear that supports your class preference which could allow you to play a class that isn't normally viewed as meta.
As with the Fighter skill 'Rush', you move from your location to the target and upon getting there, you deal damage.
However with the mage secondary, and applying the teleportation augment that comes with it, you know go straight from your location to the target, with the time in between virtually eliminated.
It's still the same concept of getting from your location to the target, but it changes it in a way that can be beneficial to you.
Another example could be augmenting your sweep attack as a fighter with the fire augmentation from your secondary as a mage, which now adds fire damage and applies burning. It's the same concept, it's just adding a bit of 'spice' to it (get it?).
Or, you power level to being a necromancer because that's what you've been dreaming about doing for the past couple years, all up to you.
I admit to not seeing every single update and video so the secondary class not adding any new abilities is news to me, thanks for the clarification.
This however doesn't lessen my question though, only deepen it.
In your first example, a Highsword would basically become a melee healer which is nowhere the same. If they are not able to heal without a melee ability that makes them next to worthless. This might be something that would work on the front line of a raid but in a PvP situation I would much rather have a Guardian and High Priest.
Secondary Classes do NOT change a classes gameplayrole.
Here is what I gathered over the years that I watched the streams concerning class roles:
Fighter - could be anything though I hope that they get a true parry skill as a damage tank kind of class (like a warrior tank or dk in wow, where they deal damage to survive)
Tank - damage mitigation
Rogue - Stealth
Ranger - traps
Mage - direct magic damage on a large scale
Summoner - minion controll and battlefield controll
Bard - mass buffs
Cleric - direct healing
These rolls ONLY happen if you chose this as your main class. A secondary rogue wont be able to become invisible, a secondary cleric wont be able to directly heal others, a secondary bard wont be able to buff others (or maybe id they do, then not as strong as regular bards).
A fighter wont become a "melee healer" with a cleric as secondary class. A melee healer would be a Cleric/Fighter or a Cleric/Rogue or a Cleric/Tank with a melee weapon.
A Fighter/Cleric is a fighter that can sustain himself a bit with healing magic.
Your primary archetype determines your role and your secondary merely augments how you do that role. So a primary Fighter is a dps no matter what secondary they choose. The Fighter class specifically can be either ranged or melee, but they're not even limited to physical damage - if they choose Mage secondary, they can add elemental effects onto their abilities as well.
They can never be a healer even if they choose a Cleric secondary. Also each secondary offers 4 potential augment types, so Cleric would not only offer healing. Right now we know Clerics are the masters of life in all ways - this is why Summoner/Cleric is a Necromancer. So aside from choosing a healing augment and maybe getting self healing on a melee swing, you could also choose other Cleric augments that might do other things we don't yet know about.
Only Clerics and Bards can directly heal other players, and Clerics are the only primary healers. Bard healing will be much, much lower than Clerics and mostly AoE type stuff as supportive healing.
They'll do melee dps differently, but I don't think the idea is that one is better than the other. Fighter will be your more traditional Chain or Plate wearing weapon master, dashing head first into an enemy and fearlessly tearing them to bits. Rogue will be more careful in choosing targets, finding opportunity, using stealth or positioning to gain an advantage, and will likely have Light/Leather armor passives so they'll be a bit squishier and with less HP.
What will more so determine your build potential is other factors - what skills from your primary archetype will you spend points in, how deeply will you spend those points, what skills will you put on your bar, what secondary class will you choose and what augments will you use, etc.
If I had to guess, you may see stealth as an augment so maybe your Rush skill is now a Shadowstep, sending you into stealth for a few seconds as you charge toward your target; or maybe there are positional augments so maybe your melee swing now offers bonus damage when attacking from behind or the side, etc.
Then how is beastmaster secondary gonna work as a summoner? Are you not going to acquire any Ranger skills?
Beastmaster is a Summoner primary, so they have summons no matter what. The secondary class choice for a Summoner changes the appearance of your summons, and changes how they do their role (you'll have tank, dps, and healing summons). So the Ranger secondary will likely turn your summons into animals with maybe appropriate attacks like claw attacks for a cat, etc. You will not gain any ranger skills, only augments to your Summoner skills that reflect the gameplay style of the Ranger class.
I would say that the Beastmaster (Summoner/Ranger) will have pets with bleeds and slows to hunt down his enemies. Maybe have one permanent pet and summon two extra ones in combat.
Example:
Summon Elemental (Basic Summoner Spell) - Summon 3 Elementals to do your bidding (Fire - DPS, Earth - Tanking, Wind - Support)
Summon Wild Beasts (Ranger Augmented Spell) - Summon two wild beasts, that apply bleeding and slow effects on their target
Except the example YOU gave was exactly that....."Cleric Augmented Parry - Parry up to 10 enemy melee attacks and heal for x% of the parried damage." Is that not healing yourself through melee?
And of you don't get any of the secondary classes abilities then exactly what will you get? So if I'm a Tank/ Rogue and I don't get any stealth capability, what WILL I get?
For the PvE Raid players who are so adamant about needing a DPS meter there absolutely will be a meta but it wont necessarily be same/same. There is a good chance it will be for tank/tank or tank/cleric and cleric/cleric. in the same sense the majority will probably be pushed towards dps/dps
But what is meta for PvE will probably not be meta for PvP . PvP will probably be more flexible on a Meta due to a calculator wont be able to tell you what is best. As the most DPS wont necessarily be the best. It will also change depending on the battles 1vx 8vx ZvZ PuG or Coms.
I think you didnt understand what i meant. Cleric main class will be the only one to actually actively heal OTHERS. Cleric subclass will give you augment to heal YOURSELF.
That doesnt make you a melee healer^^
What you get from the secondary class augmentations would be flavour.
Example:
Fighter/Mage - Magic damage on your abilities
Tank/Rogue - Evasion on your mitigation instead of just reducing damage
Rogue/Bard - Movementspeed buff on your finisher for yourself
Is it really confirmed secondary class will only affect yourself. I doubt this is the case with classes like Paladin in the list. I bet they are weaker effects but still impact allies. Like the Paladins taunt creating a heal zone or something.
I would never expect to, clerics are healers and tanks are tanks that's it. But I could see auras like Pala gives whole party +x% benefit from heals for example... SYNERGY
So if you are correct that means what Damokles has been peddling was BS since he said you would only effect yourself. I would tend to agree with you since that's close to what I originally thought.
Who am I supposed to truly believe though, does anyone have some video evidence or a text excerpt to support their position?
This also still doesn't answer my original question.....do you think people will prefer a double same class over mixed? If it's truly just flavor though, I can't imagine why it would matter.
If that's the case however then why even have secondaries if they are all just re-skinned versions of the same thing? I personally want them to have some impact on what I choose beyond mere superficiality.
*sigh*
Here is everything we know about augments. You dont have to believe any of my "BS" but for someone who seems to not even have read the wiki that is a bit much...
Primary skills (class abilities) are based on a player's archetype. Players can personalize their primary skills with augmentation from a secondary archetype.
"The design behind augments is to not just change the flavor so that it reflects the secondary archetype, but it also fundamentally changes the core components of a skill." – Steven Sharif
Each secondary archetype offers four different schools of augmentation. Each augment school affects a primary archetype's skills in different ways.
For example: A Mage offers Teleportation and elemental schools of augments. These augments will affect a Fighter's primary skills differently than a Cleric's.
Each augmentation has a level requirement and number of skill points required to activate it.
"There's going to be a certain threshold at which you can no longer augment your active abilities based on the decisions you've augmented previous abilities, so you'll have to pick and choose which ones you want to apply the augments towards; and certain augments will have more expense required on the skill point side."
– Steven Sharif
Choosing the same primary and secondary archetype increases focus on that archetype.
Augments to primary skills will fundamentally change the way the ability works: Adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary archetype.
The progression system for augments is very similar to the class progression system.
Changing the augmentations on your skills will require you to go to a NPC in a Village node or higher.
Some spell colors and general FX change based on augments.
Active skills could look totally different after an augment gets applied.
Players receive skill points as they level. These can be used to level up skills within their active, passive or combat skill trees.
It will not be possible to max all skills in a skill tree.
In terms of skill progression, players can choose to go "wide" and get a number of different abilities, or go "deep" into a few specific abilities.
"If from the eight archetypes whatever you choose as your secondary, you're going to receive a choice of augments that relate to some core ideal of that class. You know like a tank is about controlling the battlefield, is about surviving. The mage is about dealing damage and elements and ability in AoEs. The rogue is going to be about stealth and critical damage. So those augments are going to to play towards those identities." – Steven Sharif
"The idea behind the system is that you're kind of skirting the line through these augmentations of your role, right. We have the traditional holy trinity that's present in class designs for MMOs and it's often that those either are not deviated at all or completely deviated from entirely. The augment is to kind of offer a balance between that where you still maintain the semblance of that trinity system while offering the opportunity to customize your play experience towards one of the other angles in the triangle."
– Steven Sharif
We dont know how it will be for each individual class with 100% certainty, no one can.
And concerning double class against dual class: Double class doubles down on the class skillset, while dual class builds broaden the effects.
This took me 5sec to find on the ashesofcreation.wiki btw...
But because pve is open world that makes it a pvp situation, so because you may have a solid group for the pve but if another group comes along and decides they want the spot and they have more fluid classes your might have trouble dealing with them.
23:09
This was said 2 years ago honestly your better off being patient and seeing what comes out in the next few months
Well I did do my own research but I kind of wanted you to go through the process so you could re-read what you found. Based on that very information (I do appreciate you going through the effort btw), the things you claimed; Augmented abilities being self only and you will not get secondary class abilities, I see no support for. In fact, when they say some augments will completely change a primary class ability, that could be any number of things related to the secondary including possibly being a melee healer (possibly, not definitely). In the limited amount of research I did, I didn't turn up anything more than you did however.
So while some of what I said in my OP isn't quite right, they are much closer to the truth than I was led to believe. Augmenting a primary skill CAN completely change it and give you essentially a new skill and there is nothing to say that your secondary augments couldn't give you the ability to off tank or heal, we don't know for sure either way yet.
I'm also a bit confused about why you were so intent on proving me wrong because that wasn't even the focus of this thread. Thanks though for helping be better understand secondary classes and augments.
Again, I want others opinions on if they think a double class will be chosen over a dual class (using your terms) in most situations.
Additionally, I feel like if you're choosing a secondary that's different, you want it to either personalize your character in a unique way, or your want to blur the line a little bit in the tank-damage-support trinity. If you're doubling down, then you don't mind as much as having a more defined role that you're doing more effectively, you just tend to have less utility than dual. Depends on the player in the end.