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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
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MMORPG
Massively
Multiplayer
Online
Role
Playing
Game
Cambridge Dictionary, Role: the position or purpose that someone or something has in a situation, organization, society, or relationship.
The purpose of many players is to customize their characters, pets, mounts, houses, caravans, etc.
Gary Gygax, the father of the role:
¨The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience. There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you’re involved in, whether it’s a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things¨.
Representing a specific character in a given environment requires an appropriate setting, a story, a visual aspect and everything that allows the staging to come to life.
The industry no longer remembers the meaning of the role.
The goal of winning, competing, was set and one of the fundamental aspects of the role (the visual aspect, the personalization) was taken to generate money.
In this sad reality and as much as they do not want to recognize, for the lovers of the role their goal within a game, their feeling of success was put behind a wall of money.
P2R = P2W.
Look at it this way, my thread in the forum achieved something rarely seen, that the user community united behind the same objective, to convince me that the sale of cosmetics is not P2W.
I dont think he is.
He's put far to much thought and effort into trying to convince people that a cosmetic item to him personally is p2w.
Anyone whos been around long enough knows thats not even remotely what p2w is. But in these days people have been trying to fabricate new meanings for concrete meanings and definitions in many ways.
Its become a bit of joke to look at society and see how fast we've devolved rather than progressed. Its kind of vexing since we're technologically more advanced than ever but have regressed socially and intellectually as a collective.
No trolling.
Just sharing a different view on a common topic.
Sometimes when you take a wrong path there is nothing wrong with going backwards and with a new perspective keep moving in the right direction.
If you want a perfect example of how a company handles it's in-game cash shop look no further than Grinding Gear Games. Path of Exile is highly respected by its player base. It's got loot boxes sure, but those are for the whales that can't wait for the next league's content. All items that are in loot boxes become available for purchase in the normal cash shop after the league. Even so, none of the community gives them grief for it since -nothing- gives you an advantage in the game. POE might've not been the best example as there's a very small PvP community but the idea remains the same.
The problem with POE is that everything aesthetically attractive is exclusive to the payment store. The objects in the game lack appeal in general.
On the other hand, the sale of stash tabs in the long run ends up being key to achieving efficient performance in the game.
Customizable tabs (premium), tabs to accumulate fragments, currency, maps, divination cards, uniques, orbs, etc.
Being able to accumulate the loot and distribute it in a categorized way is key to efficient progress.
Taking into account that these stash tabs are also available during the seasons, this generates a great advantage.
Visual customization within a game is a desire, not a need. You are wrong. Your argument completely hinges on color. Nothing more.
You can get anything at all in game, it just may be a different color. Not an obnoxious or obtuse color, just a different color to the otherwise identicle item that is in the shop.
Having a hat that is mauve taupe rather than old mauve shouldn't have any impact at all on your ability to play the role.
Cosmetics being P2W is subjective as it depends on the value someone puts on having (subjectively) cooler-looking clothes compared to someone else.
Which for me means 0.000000.
A being can not judge light if he has never seen it, neither can he judge darkness if he never has been it
He said on the AMA also:
But Steven did make sure to point out that the cosmetics will be ON PAR with the stuff you can get ingame, it will just take a lot of effort.
Now if you're too lazy to put that effort into this then that's your problem.
The typical mistake of believing that why someone raises a different interpretation is because they want to convince others.
It is not my intention to convince anyone.
On the other hand, it is logical that a 100% PvP player does not feel any interest in cosmetic items and their focus is exclusively linked to the performance of their character.
Finally, for these types of players the sale of cosmetics is an excellent system, it does not compromise their objectives in the game and finances the creation of content, which they enjoy without investing extra money.
¨Visual customization within a game is a desire, not a need.¨
MMORPG
R = Role
Environment + History + Music + Appearance + Interpretation + Objectives + Participation = Role Elements - Appearance = Limitations to interpretation = MMOPG
¨You can get anything at all in game, it just may be a different color¨
So when someone buys clothes, furniture, a car, paints a house, chooses the colors of preference because ...
Nothing?
Ops! Of course, because colors matter, they match your personality and your desire to create an environment to your liking.
¨Having a hat that is mauve taupe rather than old mauve shouldn't have any impact at all on your ability to play the role.¨
If the role to be played requires a color that is behind a wall of money, then this role cannot be played without paying.
Limiting the colors limits the possibilities of RPG
I am going to assume you want to take that back.
Also, I am not sure what a Massively Multiplayer Online Playing Games is. You should be taking the "P" in MMORPG with you, not just the "R".
---
Since your entire argument comes down to nothing but color, this is the only part of your argument at all that carries any semblence of weight.
That doesn't mean this is a valid argument, it means everything else is a pointless ramble of nothingness.
The issue with this statement in terms of the cosmetic only cash shop beign pay to win - other than the complete lunacy of it - is that it isn't factoring in the notion that you are not supposed to be able to play any role you want.
You can't roleplay a police officer wearing a police hat in Ashes.
You can't roleplay a Jedi in Ashes, complete with lightsabre.
You can't roleplay Xena the Warrior Princess either.
You can only roleplay the things that the game allows you to roleplay.
Further, I can't think of any role in any situation where a slight change in color would matter. I'd really like to hear what kind of role it is you think would rely that much on color.
Lastly, since you are complaining about color and literally nothing else, would you please be able to fill me in on how the game is going to handle player dye?
I mean, since color is literally the only argument you have, surely you've looked in to this already, right?
You have essentially said that without appearance, you have no role in MMORPG even though you list 6 other elements of role. You don't have to have cosmetics. They offer zero in game advantage. They take up time, effort, and resources but the only benefits are psychological and social. Those are not in game benefits. Your trying to win outside of the parameters of the game and calling it winning in the game and using that as the basis of your argument that paying cash for cosmetics is P2W.
Your OP argument doesn't even make sense either. You start with naming cosmetics P2W in an apparent attempt to discredit the current payment system. You then propose to solve this by setting up a payment system that is cheaper. However, if buying cosmetics is P2W, then paying less for cosmetics is paying less to win.
Naturally, if cosmetics being P2W was a problem, you would have proposed the only solution: don't sell cosmetics. You either don't have a problem with P2W; or, you don't really believe that cosmetics are P2W.
You could have argued that the entire game is filled with cosmetics, including cosmetics that are simply recolors of the cosmetics offered in the shop. However, in many cases buying one cosmetic in the shop is half the price of a full game at $60 / box or twice the cost of a monthly sub. These prices are clearly far higher than anything that could be justified for the cost of one skin. Then you could have proposed a more reasonable pricing system such as the one that you gave. Instead of having everyone try to explain why cosmetics are not pay to win, you could have had people talking about whether the current pricing system is fair.
Something you should know:
We offer cosmetics for players who wish to support the project early. The exclusive nature of the limited availability is something I think collectors value. If you buy cosmetics as an MMO player, I know I enjoyed if the cosmetic is rare and not every girl at the party is wearing the same dress...Steven Sharif https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Pre-order_packs
Cosmetics are intended to be exclusive and limited. Cost is exclusive, even though the average person can afford to buy any of the available cosmetics. The cost of buying all will drive many away even if they can afford it. The result is few people having any given cosmetic. It is the exact opposite of your proposed solution that involves full access to cosmetics at a low price. Your solution to deal with ridiculous prices of cosmetics demonstrates that the goal of exclusion is occurring.
¨You realize that you literally just said that environment, history, music, interpretation, objectives and participation mean nothing in regards to a role, and all that matters is the appearance.¨
You realize that ¨Limitation¨ as I say is not the same that ¨nothing¨ as you say?
Misleading aproach detected.
¨You have essentially said that without appearance, you have no role in MMORPG even though you list 6 other elements of role¨
¨Limitations¨ as I say is not the same that ¨no role¨ as you say.
Misleading aproach detected.
You say that I am misleading, yet you literally removed the "R" from MMORPG. What am I supposed to think that removing role means other than it is removed? Your point must be that at least in your perception, role has been removed if appearance is not included.
If the theme of the thread revolves around the perspective of players who see the cosmetic aspect as a central part of their gaming experience and a goal of progress and success, it is understood that within the fundamental aspects of the role, the cosmetic is a priority, If there is no freedom of access within the game and a large part of these objects are offered for money, this goal disappears and the concept of role for these players loses sense, there is no R.
I am not misleading anything, I am simply echoing what you just said.
And what you just said is that removing a few appearance options (in this case, a potential limit on color options) is akin to turning the game in to an MMOPG.
Why would you have even said MMOPG in a thread where your only argument is that there may be some restrictions to color choice, if you are not saying that those restrictions to color choice are completely removing the "role" aspect of the MMORPG genre?
Also, where is my information on the dye system?
He agreed. His point is that there is no Role if cosmetics are unobtainable. He simply explained his reasoning as well.
So, in the end his elaborate post with an equation and long explanation was just making the point that for him there is no MMORPG without cosmetics. Which is what he has been saying for the whole thread.
If these other things play no part at all in a role, there is no point in even bringing them up. So why were they brought up?
Further, someone playing a role using only appearance is doing a shit job of playing that role.
Lastly, suggesting some form of misleading has taken place when all that has been done is echoing a post back to the person that posted it is absolutely not ok.
If you have:
Environment or History or Music or Appearance or Interpretation or Objectives or Participation = Role Elements - Appearance = Limitation to interpretation = MMOPG
You have a ponit.
But I say:
Environment + History + Music + Appearance + Interpretation + Objectives + Participation = Role Elements - Appearance = Limitations to interpretation = MMOPG
You know the meaning of ¨+¨?
About the Dye system:
If this is gonna happen and they put all the color options inside the game is a perfect solution, no more complains.
But if they put the dye system and some colors are ¨store exclusive options¨ we are in the same problem.
About the style point logic:
You have sound points in the game?
No, so they can put exclusive backgraound, boss fight and location music in the strore for money and is ok?
You have animation points in the game?
No, so they can put exclusive combat and social animations in the store for money and is ok?
You have landscape points in the game?
And gender points?
Racial points?
You do not need a point system to understand that some stuff are basic components of a MMORPG.
Yeah, you ironically took the wrong path on P2W. so you should turn around and go left next time where all the reasonable people are. What I mean is that your premise on pure cosmetics being P2W is faulty. It's quite inferior to the general understanding of P2W, and should not be incorporated.
For someone who wrote "Everything is relative," it sure seems like only your ideas are relative and not others. Clearly you misused the phrase or don't even understand relativism so you recklessly used a self-contradicting statement to sound smart. The contradiction being everything boils down to personal preferences and there's no absoluteness/ objective standards when the statement itself is absolute and a self-imposing objective standard. Maybe, be careful when getting preachy.
We all probably know this: the objective standards generally accepted as P2W ranges from conveniences: EXP boosts, auto-complete raids, character weight, and a combination of other conveniences to hard power like currency, stats, BiS or really good weapons, etc.
Pure cosmetics have not been accepted as P2W by most people, in fact this is the only time I've heard of it out of thousands of people I talked to about it over time and the thousands they did, plus the thousands of their own. It's probably like this with all posters who disagree with your premise.
Your premise is an unreliable minority opinion that needlessly complicates the general understanding of P2W. While I can appreciate some perspectives that are unique, different, insular, and new, this one's not worth having or appreciating.
Perhaps if you read all the contributions and saw the links I provided you would see that in the real world there are many other people who think the same.
As for the reasonable people here, well it is a matter of perspective, I did not count them, but suppose that some 20 or 30 people who agree on something in the forum compared to a total of tens of millions existing represent the absolute and irrefutable logic is a unpretentious.
Following this same logic, of course I do not pretend to represent absolute logic and unquestionable reason, I made it clear in my other contributions, I respect your views and understanding of what P2W is, I simply do not share it.
You have people who think the same, me too.
To think that the tiny proportion represented in this forum is the revelation about the absolute truth is a bit naive.
That is why I repeat again, it is not about convincing anyone, you have your version of what is correct or acceptable, Intrepid has, and I have mine.
Do not be afraid, worried, frustrated or angry that someone will express a different interpretation.
The best thing that can happen to a forum is to have different opinions to feed a debate, thinking of a forum where only users who share the same ideology and way of thinking are accepted moves away from the idea of a forum and begins to look more like a cult.
EDIT: On a more careful reading of your links I have to take back what I said. Even the articles you link to don’t call cosmetics “pay to win”. They don’t seem to share your lunacy. The only arguments they are making is that cosmetic micro transactions aren’t meaningless nor harmless, and I don’t see anyone arguing against that. We are just disputing the ignorant claim that cosmetics are P2W, and you haven’t shown in this thread that anyone but you feels that way.
Good grief you look foolish.