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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
I'm planning on looking at how it works during alpha/beta, and if it seems like it could be restricting, my suggestion will be to make it so that players get the out of combat ability of both of their classes - meaning that a group would want to have someone in the group with each of the 8 primary classes somewhere in the mix.
This would open up group composition a whole lot.
You do?
Well, the fact with clerics and tanks is that thewre are usually alternatives to a class. Warriors, paladins, shadow knights, druids, shaman. You may also have noticed that I have said, either in this thread or elsewhere, that I believe Ashes should have alternatives to tank and cleric because those two seem to be the only main choice as tank or healer prior to 25.
Anyway, tank and healer are roles. We're clearly talking about extra abilities.
Anything else interesting to add?
Early in DDO before the nerfs Raids had traps that only Rogues or part rogues could turn off and would 1 shot most classes. Int runes that only a Wizard would have enough int to get, CHA runes that only a Sorc should have enough for, str levers that only a barb or fighter should have enough for etc etc. Are you wanting a hard manditory like that?
I want alternatives. Whilst I am all for tough challenges I do realise that Ashes is just a game and having content be prohibitive can put people off. Whilst I want content that is a harkener to the MMOs of 15 years ago, I want Ashes to be successful.
I do want content that only rogues can handle, but I see no reason why a ranger or a fighter shouldn't have some skill to be able to have a crack at it.
The problem I see is I don't want special abilities that open new paths for dungeons to be a few clases only. I also don't want eight man groups to be forced to include one of each archetype. That will get dull fast.
Ideally I guess we could see a variety of paths be available throughout a dungeon but that there would be requirements to passing certain way. This is commonplace in games like Divinity: Original Sin with needing rogues/theives to pass a certain way. Perhaps if a group doesn't have a rogue then there could be a different route that might require a summoner pet to access.
There should be incentives to having a rogue and being able to access a certain boss, but it should prohibit groups without a rogue from getting vakue from a dungeon.
So, yes, include ideas such as you mentioned from DDO, but let's not restrict groups from getting anywhere. Let them get somewhere another way.
It's just thoughts that will likely change as we see more information from the game.
Yes please!
that would hard lock people out of content until they can assemble a narrow focused specific group. perhaps to the extreme of requiring one of every class.
highly unlikely to be popular. would be better to have bonus things for having each of every class however in noway required to do the content.
I feel that you maybe over analysing this. We need to remember that in raids diversity is key.!
1 - You have to have a tank (depending on the size of raid, prob 2 or 3 tanks)
2 - You need healers (for a 40 man raid would expect somewhere around 4-5 healers)
3 - you always need a diversity of dps that are mixed ranged and melee.
In saying that, alot of mmo's ive played the melee are usually minimal to mitigate close quarters damage and potential healer mana sapping so they can focus on the tanks.
We have already seen that mages are going to be sort after in raids for their mana gifting of healers. I guess particularly in the early dungeons etc until mana pots etc are in good supply.
So I guess my point is there may only ever be 1 rogue in a raid because of just that one ability and then stacked with more than one of other classes. So, theoretically if rogues may lack sustained dps lets say as opposed to other classes, alot of rogues might be left out of raids altogether for the sack of only needing one for opening up additional rooms and passages! You just never know. What we need is to see the full work up of class and subclass abilities/buffs etc
2/3rds the trinity are met by 2 specific classes out of 8. so the vast majority of players would have at best limited access to group pve content that requires trinity group mechanics anyways.
cant imagine why so many of these games fade quickly after initial release
Clearly you hate the trinity. What system would you suggest they use?
Maybe AoC is taking a different path, that will not focus on too much dungeons and more on open world farming / pvp. This way is different, because you have to learn the world, learn the best spots to farm, change it up a little bit when you get better gear, etc etc.
Sometimes I think people focus on WoW too much, and that is understandable. WoW is an old game, that lots of people play to this day, and people have had time to think about it and figure out how can they can make WoW better, and Blizzard has been very deaf when it comes to listening to their playerbase.
Dungeons provide an easy way to gather a bunch of players to focus on one objective, but at the same time, limit the posibilities regarding gameplay, you feel forced to play group dungeons to progress in the game.
Final Fantasy 14 is another game that forces you, somehow, to dungeon play with limited role options that are ideal and with that, reduced variety.
I like open world farming, and with the corruption system ( old Lineage 2 Karma ), it makes the game very interesting for the different classes. Sometimes you will make a buddy healer, other times you will meet a tank and you are a dps and will have to make do with what you have, and that will be okay ( for the first... say 30 levels ). If you want to move to a better farming spot... find a healer, or a buffer, or another tank kinda class to divide the damage, etc etc.
That also comes with the high group limit (8). You wanna farm okay ? Stick with your bunch of friends and progress the game. Wanna go High Brain strat and farm lvl 80 dragons with AoE ? Recruit a bunch of healers / supports / dps and try different options. That's why classes are important, but game and world design are too. If they manage a seamless progression in the world, with different areas for different playstyles, they hit the spot.
Very interesting topic
Have Great Day !
Ulf
that's a longer discussion and highly unlikely to happen with this title however to mitigate some of the more onerous shortcomings with the trinity mechanic one needs more base classes be able to spec/gear to perform additional trinity roles. That's not just some dps classes being able to gear/spec to do either the tank/healer roles but also tank and cleric base classes able to be completely viable dps when spec'd/geared for it.
perhaps at least add bard/cleric and fighter/tank to viable healer and tank trinity roles
in before "zomg if fighter/tank can main tank no one will play tank." yeah that's the problem with the tank archetype and more broadly an indicator of issues with the 64 "classes" thing entirely.
This is true - Rogues have always been sort of left behind in large scale battles because their usefulness to attack soft targets is more limited when large masses of people are present, it's hard to find the "stragglers" so to speak. However from what I've read it appears rogues will have the ability to scale walls and this could open opportunities for them to attack from inside the city while people feel "safe" for example. Even with that however the question would then become a balance of guard AI aggro and the rogue's ability to escape after engaging someone because of the effort and time to get into a city and wait out a soft/vulnerable target if that just results in insta kill/no escape from the AI guards afterwards it limits the useful effectiveness in terms of PVP outside of scouting ability.
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
We all like different things and that is good. But making everything the same makes it boring.
U.S. East
having more than two classes be able to provide for 2/3rds the trinity roles is not making every class be able to do everything
Because at the end of the day, there will always be elitist players or a tendancy to some "meta" game plan that a lot of people are going to follow. Might aswell focus on making sure the differents unique skills are all going to have an actual impact on the long run.
Remember diversity and liberty of choosing is what makes a game great, and because of that, you can't expect it to be the same experience for every class you play, it'd be boring ! The same way you can't ask a blacksmith to be able to bake you a baguette, that'd make no sense ! (Oui oui I am indeed french )
I hope I get my point across !
Nah, a rogue will be sweet! I've heard you can like assassinate captains and vendors in the city to increase defenders/attackers respawn time
What the original post is concerned with are the roles of archetypes, which people have been classifying as Tank, Damage, and Healer. Of among the eight archetypes, there will be one Tank and one Healer, but six Damage archetypes. The developers intend that players include each of the eight archetypes in their parties; archetypes which are highly customizable by the way. So to maintain variance between archetypes, and in particular the Damage archetypes, the developers want to give those archetypes interesting and distinctive abilities that a party would not want to go without. I would also like to point out that the classifications of Tank, Damage, and Healer are far from complete or accurate. Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition identifies these three rolls (under different names) but also includes Controller as a distinctive roll; in that game fighters are the iconic Tanks, rogues are the iconic Damage dealers, clerics are the iconic Healers, and wizards are the iconic Controllers. In AoC, the role of Controller (generally defined as someone who utilizes crowd control effects) is spread among the other roles. That means that the developers have to come up with interesting things that each archetype can do. An example of this is allowing Rogues to discover hidden doors, traps, and additional treasures. Every archetype will do something useful for a party, meaning that there are not three roles, but eight.