Any Guild Wars 2 Inspiration/Mechanic implementation? Edit: A thread about mobile combat

I've been an avid MMO player since the launch of Vanilla WoW and have played many different titles, eventually ending up with GW2 and Wildstar (RIP) as my favourites because of their world and combat systems.

I've been looking around to see if there's any mechanics that were taken from these games but to no avail. It's a little disappointing and discomforting personally because after playing the fluidity of GW2's hybrid tab-target/action and constantly moving combat I have a hard time playing MMO's where you spend most of the time stationary and just racking up damage/heals with the occasional "move out of the fire" gameplay.

From what I've seen from AoC gameplay, it looks like casting is stationary and there's going to be little movement and that's very disappointing to me if that's the case, but I might be willing to endure it for the sake of all the other world mechanics I've seen so far. That being said, I understand I have a bit of a bias that might be showing here.

Anyways, to sum up my long preamble and get to my question, have the developers talked about any mechanics they've liked from GW2, combat or otherwise? It seems Steven has a preference for classic Tab-targeting games and I haven't really seen him mention any of the "relatively newer" MMO's other than BDO a few times.

Edit: I guess I should add that I know there's going to be some action-combat abilities in AoC, but I'm wondering how they will play out, and how limited they are if at all?

Edit2: Better clarified thread summary in title

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Wandering Mist

Right now we know very little of how the combat in Ashes will actually play out. The devs have stated previously that some spells will be able to cast during movement, and other spells will fix you in place. This is for balancing reasons. For example, in the last dev livestream they showed off the Mage's Prismatic Beam spell, which is a very hard hitting ability that can potentially pierce through multiple targets. To balance this incredibly powerful ability, it roots the caster in place while they use it in order to increase the risk-reward factor of the spell.

If you were able to cast Prismatic Beam while moving, that would likely be overpowered.

As for the world building, that is a fundamental part of GuildWars 2 which is why you don't see it in other mmorpgs. You couldn't take the mechanics from GW2 and put them into WoW without changing the entire game.

Dreoh

I'm fine with some spells requiring stationary casting, both GW2 and Wildstar had some stationary spells to balance their power. I'd prefer if that was the exception to the rule, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Valento92

It feels so satisfying to cast while walking for the not-so-powerful skills. Before anyone gets personally mad at me I know that it depends on how combat design is built, it's just a personal preference as it gives me the full feeling of freedom of movement and being constantly stationary to fire every spell is not fun. In FFXIV I picked Summoner as my main because it has a hell of a dynamic rotation and the job lets me freely move around for the most part. I like that. I don't feel awfully glued to the ground, despite having some stationary spells. I just can't well explain it, it feels much smoother... In New World you won't be able to jump in place for example, the character feels glued to the ground, it's so horrible the feeling of being motionless.

CaptnChuck

Dreoh wrote: »

I'm fine with some spells requiring stationary casting, both GW2 and Wildstar had some stationary spells to balance their power. I'd prefer if that was the exception to the rule, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I agree

Leiloni

Valento92 wrote: »

It feels so satisfying to cast while walking for the not-so-powerful skills. Before anyone gets personally mad at me I know that it depends on how combat design is built, it's just a personal preference as it gives me the full feeling of freedom of movement and being constantly stationary to fire every spell is not fun. In FFXIV I picked Summoner as my main because it has a hell of a dynamic rotation and the job lets me freely move around for the most part. I like that. I don't feel awfully glued to the ground, despite having some stationary spells. I just can't well explain it, it feels much smoother... In New World you won't be able to jump in place for example, the character feels glued to the ground, it's so horrible the feeling of being motionless.

Being rooted in place, or using some form of animation locking (i.e. Aion or TERA did this well) is important to balance combat but also to make it feel weighty and meaningful. GW2's combat is way too floaty and weightless. But more powerful skills need to have a drawback to make you think about using them and to balance out the fact that you're about to do a ton of damage.

Actually now that I think about it, plenty of skills in GW2 have a bit of this, usually via being locked into an animation that if cancelled, cancels the skill and the damage entirely. Sometimes the animation has you stationary, but some animations have you moving in some fashion - but that's still an animation lock because if you cancel or dodge out of that animation, it stops the rest of the damage the skill would otherwise do and puts it on CD.

Valento92

@Leiloni I don't agree much about balance because most of the skills have less damage to compensate the freedom of movement. Being floaty/weightless is mostly about personal opinion tbh.

Malapapas

Dreoh wrote: »

I've been an avid MMO player since the launch of Vanilla WoW and have played many different titles, eventually ending up with GW2 and Wildstar (RIP) as my favourites because of their world and combat systems.

I've been looking around to see if there's any mechanics that were taken from these games but to no avail. It's a little disappointing and discomforting personally because after playing the fluidity of GW2's hybrid tab-target/action and constantly moving combat I have a hard time playing MMO's where you spend most of the time stationary and just racking up damage/heals with the occasional "move out of the fire" gameplay.

From what I've seen from AoC gameplay, it looks like casting is stationary and there's going to be little movement and that's very disappointing to me if that's the case, but I might be willing to endure it for the sake of all the other world mechanics I've seen so far. That being said, I understand I have a bit of a bias that might be showing here.

Anyways, to sum up my long preamble and get to my question, have the developers talked about any mechanics they've liked from GW2, combat or otherwise? It seems Steven has a preference for classic Tab-targeting games and I haven't really seen him mention any of the "relatively newer" MMO's other than BDO a few times.

Edit: I guess I should add that I know there's going to be some action-combat abilities in AoC, but I'm wondering how they will play out, and how limited they are if at all?

I definitely understand how you feel. WoW was my first MMO and I played other various MMOs but most of my time has been with GW2. I feel GW2 has ruined any other MMO experience because of its hybrid combat which requires things like dodging to evade attacks and every class having healing abilities. I once went back to WoW and after a few days gave up because of not being able to dodge an attack or heal myself with a DPS class was just so unsatisfying.

More recently, I tried SWTOR and the pure tab targeting system was just too boring. The only other MMO so far to be any fun with its combat has been ESO. ESO's has been fun but not sure if it has longevity for me.. I am hoping AoC becomes the next big MMO I can sink my time into but only time will tell I guess....

Yuyukoyay

You might be happy with the fact that Ashes is going to have both tab and action gameplay. You can have as much of either that you want. =3

Though if you can't stand WoW, but like GW2 then traditional MMO's just might not be the kind of game you like. I heard Fracture is kinda like GW2 in ways.

HowlingWolf80

I hope not. Tried Guild Wars 2 recently and the combat is fucking awful. Slow clunky movement like trying to turn a shopping cart with 3 wheels.
Much rather classes or builds can be set up like WoW for those players. Other builds less spells more action combat and can even play with controller like ESO combat full action.

Riegnar

HowlingWolf80 wrote: »

I hope not. Tried Guild Wars 2 recently and the combat is fucking awful. Slow clunky movement like trying to turn a shopping cart with 3 wheels.
Much rather classes or builds can be set up like WoW for those players. Other builds less spells more action combat and can even play with controller like ESO combat full action.

did you try the tutorial for 2 minutes on a toaster of a pc ?

Dreoh

HowlingWolf80 wrote: »

I hope not. Tried Guild Wars 2 recently and the combat is fucking awful. Slow clunky movement like trying to turn a shopping cart with 3 wheels.
Much rather classes or builds can be set up like WoW for those players. Other builds less spells more action combat and can even play with controller like ESO combat full action.

I'm not sure it's GW2 that you played lmfao. GW2 has the tightest movement in any MMO I've played.
The game even has air-strafing

Yivo

I love GW2 and I was wondering the same thing. I really liked the jumping puzzles, having some set of skills determined by the weapons you equip, world bosses, and meta events. GW2 isn't perfect and certainly hasn't aged well, but they nailed certain concepts. I'm new here. Do we know yet if AoC will have environmental puzzles?

Xenotor

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

You might be happy with the fact that Ashes is going to have both tab and action gameplay. You can have as much of either that you want. =3

Though if you can't stand WoW, but like GW2 then traditional MMO's just might not be the kind of game you like. I heard Fracture is kinda like GW2 in ways.

You cant do 100% action combat.
From what i heard its limited to 75%
So people can have 75% of their skills Action and 25% tab target
or 75% tab target and 25% Action combat.
Off course you can match in between like 50/50 or 60/40 but never more then 75% of one.

I do agree with the WoW part.
Ashes is going to follow the Holy trinity system.
So every group will have at least 1 Tank and 1 Healer if they want to do group content.
If you cant deal with that, then AoC might not be for you.

Triple

I think having the ability to cast while moving for skills is critical in large scale PvP which is exactly what node sieges will be. The reason is simply that there will be so much damage coming from multiple sources that you as a player will want to use those abilities is those situations. I really hope the combat does have a fair amount of mobile casting like GW2, It really does make Pvp more fun. For PVE though, doesn't really matter its just about the healer saving you through most of the damage.

Dreoh

Xenotor wrote: »

You cant do 100% action combat.
From what i heard its limited to 75%
So people can have 75% of their skills Action and 25% tab target
or 75% tab target and 25% Action combat.
Off course you can match in between like 50/50 or 60/40 but never more then 75% of one.

Yea I saw that even before I made this post but don't know if "Action combat" just involves instant-casts or if it also includes "running while casting"-type abilities, which is what I'd prefer

Xenotor wrote: »

I do agree with the WoW part.
Ashes is going to follow the Holy trinity system.
So every group will have at least 1 Tank and 1 Healer if they want to do group content.
If you cant deal with that, then AoC might not be for you.

Personally I'm very ok with the trinity system, I really enjoy dedicated roles. My GW2 Guardian I've tailored to be a healer ever since launch as well as I could.

Valento92

@Triple Oh man, that's an interesting observation! It's true that mobile casting makes PvE horribly easy but for PvP it shines. Guess we can agree that fast-paced, mobile PvP feels much better than sluggish, stuck-to-the-ground movement. Sitting still in order to cast feels so annoying jesus christ...

Leiloni

HowlingWolf80 wrote: »

I hope not. Tried Guild Wars 2 recently and the combat is fucking awful. Slow clunky movement like trying to turn a shopping cart with 3 wheels.
Much rather classes or builds can be set up like WoW for those players. Other builds less spells more action combat and can even play with controller like ESO combat full action.

Ok I'm not a massive fan of GW2's combat but it is in no way slow and clunky. It's honestly fast, smooth, and in my opinion way too floaty because it's so easy to move around and your character is always doing so. It could honestly benefit from being a tad bit more on the slow and clunky side LOL.

Triple wrote: »

I think having the ability to cast while moving for skills is critical in large scale PvP which is exactly what node sieges will be. The reason is simply that there will be so much damage coming from multiple sources that you as a player will want to use those abilities is those situations. I really hope the combat does have a fair amount of mobile casting like GW2, It really does make Pvp more fun. For PVE though, doesn't really matter its just about the healer saving you through most of the damage.

Valento92

Leiloni wrote: »

Triple wrote: »

I think having the ability to cast while moving for skills is critical in large scale PvP which is exactly what node sieges will be. The reason is simply that there will be so much damage coming from multiple sources that you as a player will want to use those abilities is those situations. I really hope the combat does have a fair amount of mobile casting like GW2, It really does make Pvp more fun. For PVE though, doesn't really matter its just about the healer saving you through most of the damage.

I think your definition of more fun is vastly different from mine. I think GW2's combat and in particular it's overly mobile nature made mass scale combat completely terrible and messy. Also it just trivializes so many decisions and strategies when you can just cast and run all the time.

I kinda disagree here. Maybe it is in fact too floaty but the biggest issue is boon-oriented fights. Too much stability/boon generation makes it feel unrewarding because your strategies are crushed by stacking classes which can generate too many boons all the time.

Dreoh

Leiloni wrote: »

I think your definition of more fun is vastly different from mine. I think GW2's combat and in particular it's overly mobile nature made mass scale combat completely terrible and messy. Also it just trivializes so many decisions and strategies when you can just cast and run all the time.

Well mass scale combat IS completely terrible (not as in bad) and messy. That's just going to happen no matter what.

I do see your point about trivializing decisions and stuff, and that's a valid concern, but even in GW2 there is still a lot of "you got caught in bad positioning" when running around and especially with the few stationary skills that do exist in that game.
That said, I still feel like the constant uptime and thinking that comes with mobile combat is greater than the negatives that stem from it, whereas a stationary-based combat requires a lot less of "playing the game" and a lot more of "doing nothing but waiting for spells to finish"

Triple

Triple wrote: »

I think having the ability to cast while moving for skills is critical in large scale PvP which is exactly what node sieges will be. The reason is simply that there will be so much damage coming from multiple sources that you as a player will want to use those abilities is those situations. I really hope the combat does have a fair amount of mobile casting like GW2, It really does make Pvp more fun. For PVE though, doesn't really matter its just about the healer saving you through most of the damage.

I think your definition of more fun is vastly different from mine. I think GW2's combat and in particular it's overly mobile nature made mass scale combat completely terrible and messy. Also it just trivializes so many decisions and strategies when you can just cast and run all the time.[/quote]

In large scale combat, for example with Node siege that has the potential to be 250 vs 250, if you want to be successful and not totally reliant on a pocket healer then you should want mobility. Take for example GW2 just a simple 30v30 how can you just stand and cast without getting ran over and die? So, then lets say you cast then move, cast then move cast then move...in a massive pvp battle...eh...sounds a little like pirate shipping. All I am saying is, when there is large scale PvP, you need mobile fast action to make it flow and be more fun, if you don't have it, then it gets clunky and slow. In a battle with 200+ players not counting incoming siege damage, to me it just seems obvious, you need mobile casting. Large scale battles are messy, target selection, position, spell/ability selection and movement are all key, not to mention strategy. I think if this game doesn't give the mobility of casting in PvP then it won't be fun and engaging. Just my opinion is all from a long time Pvper and someone who primarily enjoys PvP as endgame.

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