Well my concern will come if while playing AoC, in a fight, I remember BDO combat.
I don't want to but the great mobility and dynamic combat experienced in that game was so nice (even the consistency of animations). I'm not saying AoC has to be the same, but feel good like that at the end.
Edit: After reading some more of the quotes and just refreshing myself with general information on the wiki skills, I'm wondering if Action-combat skills will default to aim at your tab-target if you're in tab-target camera view the same way GW2 does, or if you NEED to be in reticle/third-person camera view to even use Action-combat skills?
Action combat was used in the testing mode, Ashes of Creation Apocalypse. We were in third person. I can't remember if we could zoom into first person. Action combat skills and tab target skills will be separate skills, they cannot be both. Therefore action combat skills cannot aim themselves at your tab target.
From what has been said, tab target skills are ones that require a skill in order to activate and action combat skills do not. Action skills are things like GtAoE, PbAoE, frontal cones, maybe a skill that places a damage area 10m or 20m in front of your character, so fixed location AoEs (I imagine the TERA Priest Restorative Burst skill when I hear this), etc. So action skills I don't think would automatically aim at anything - they are skills that require placement via a reticule as with a GtAoE, or via the player placing themselves in the right spot, as with the other 3. Although these could also easily be played in tab target mode as well (and indeed some tab target games have skills like this).
The question for me would be how do tab target skills work in action camera mode, or do they not work? My assumption is that they might auto target whoever your reticule is aiming at, but that might be a disadvantage compared to people in tab mode who can more precisely target who they want. I guess we'll see on that one.
The action combat system requires aiming at a target. This includes a reticle for shooting and even for swinging melee weapons. This also includes aiming by pointing in a direction for PBAOE or aiming the reticle at the ground for ground targeted AOEs. The tab target system is the traditional MMO system of press tab to select a target and your character will automatically aim at that target when using abilities. The tab target system has not been tested publicly (or demonstrated) yet. The reason given is that tab target is easy, action combat is the hard part so they working on action combat.
Random video of game play from Apocalypse: https://youtube.com/watch?v=SFrV6GPy6Cg At about 10 minutes in, he gets into some fights so you can watch the action combat.
It was difficult to suss out what you were saying because of the way you used the quoting system, but I think the general gist is that you think Action Combat and Tab-Target are mutually exclusive options?
If that's the case, and I apologize if I'm misreading you, I'm going to have to ironically direct you to GW2 as an example of a system that uses both smoothly and expertly as one system. I'll reiterate in more clarity to help you and other readers understand what I'm talking about.
In GW2 every skill is a "skillshot"/Action-combat skill but simultaneously also a tab-target ability. There are exceptions, being Ground Target AoE's, directional cone AoE's, or some special skillshots like Dragonhunter's Bow3 skill, all which can actually be made to autocast on tab-target location if you desire it (something that I personally never do but the option is there).
With that said, GW2 has two camera modes just like AoC is said to have. You have the normal MMO camera, and the over-the-shoulder reticle-based action cam. Now the cool thing is you can free-fire all skills, and they can will fire in any 3d-space direction (skill-dependant). Your Bow/Rifle Auto-attack? Can fire straight up or into the ground if you desire (in either camera mode). All of these said skills can also be tab-target cast, meaning that Bow/Rifle Auto-attack will fire at the current tab-target, and will track that target the same way ranged auto-attacks track targets in regular tab-target MMO's. In some cases, these attacks can be blocked by other enemies standing between you and your target, and in others it will pass through both and deal damage to both if it's a piercing ability.
There are obviously some outlier skills like Necro's Axe1 skill which is ranged and doesn't have a projectile component, instantly applying it's effect to the target. In Action-cam mode this ability works the same as a hitscan-based gun in any fps. In a game like AoC, any targetted instant-application effects like buffs or curses could work the same way.
If I've done a good job of explaining, you can see how there's little reason why the AoC combat can't be a true hybrid system.
What scares me about the info we have so far is that it sounds like Action-combat skills will REQUIRE you to be in action-cam mode. I don't think It hasn't been mentioned if you can tab-target while in action-cam mode (which you can do in both ESO and GW2), but I'm assuming you will be able to.
What scares me about this is that if we're in the middle of combat, and I've been using my tab-target abilities, but suddenly I need to use one of my Action-combat reticle-based skills, I'll have to switch camera modes to Action-cam to use those abilities. This means that my camera would be constantly switching back and forth while I'm playing which can be disorienting in the least.
To top that off, it is said that you are required to have at least 25% of either tab-target or action-combat skills on your bar, meaning if the scenario I mentioned just above is the case, everyone will deal with that disorientation.
Edit: Not to say I don't believe Intrepid isn't going to create a fun fluid combat, I'm just basing all of my opinions on what information we have so far.
What scares me about the info we have so far is that it sounds like Action-combat skills will REQUIRE you to be in action-cam mode. I don't think It hasn't been mentioned if you can tab-target while in action-cam mode (which you can do in both ESO and GW2), but I'm assuming you will be able to.
What scares me about this is that if we're in the middle of combat, and I've been using my tab-target abilities, but suddenly I need to use one of my Action-combat reticle-based skills, I'll have to switch camera modes to Action-cam to use those abilities. This means that my camera would be constantly switching back and forth while I'm playing which can be disorienting in the least.
To top that off, it is said that you are required to have at least 25% of either tab-target or action-combat skills on your bar, meaning if the scenario I mentioned just above is the case, everyone will deal with that disorientation.
Edit: Not to say I don't believe Intrepid isn't going to create a fun fluid combat, I'm just basing all of my opinions on what information we have so far.
Why wouldn't you be able to use your action combat skills in tab mode? None of the things I've read require a reticle. You can very easily aim those skills either with the mouse for GtAoE, or by positioning your character in the appropriate way for most other types of action skills. I think the opposite is more the concern.
I'm ok in tab mode for everything, but for people who want to play in action mode, I think they'd be at a disadvantage for any targeted skills. It's not as easy to switch targets, even more so in a crowd, or to accurately choose individual targets, with action reticule mode vs tab mode. Sure there are things they can do to help with that, but tab will always be faster and more precise with individual targeting. Nothing they can do about that. So I feel like if you go 75% action skills with the intent to play in action mode, you'll have to relegate your 25% tab skills to easy things like a self buff or things that don't require precise or fast targeting.
What scares me about the info we have so far is that it sounds like Action-combat skills will REQUIRE you to be in action-cam mode. I don't think It hasn't been mentioned if you can tab-target while in action-cam mode (which you can do in both ESO and GW2), but I'm assuming you will be able to.
What scares me about this is that if we're in the middle of combat, and I've been using my tab-target abilities, but suddenly I need to use one of my Action-combat reticle-based skills, I'll have to switch camera modes to Action-cam to use those abilities. This means that my camera would be constantly switching back and forth while I'm playing which can be disorienting in the least.
To top that off, it is said that you are required to have at least 25% of either tab-target or action-combat skills on your bar, meaning if the scenario I mentioned just above is the case, everyone will deal with that disorientation.
Edit: Not to say I don't believe Intrepid isn't going to create a fun fluid combat, I'm just basing all of my opinions on what information we have so far.
Why wouldn't you be able to use your action combat skills in tab mode? None of the things I've read require a reticle. You can very easily aim those skills either with the mouse for GtAoE, or by positioning your character in the appropriate way for most other types of action skills. I think the opposite is more the concern.
I'm ok in tab mode for everything, but for people who want to play in action mode, I think they'd be at a disadvantage for any targeted skills. It's not as easy to switch targets, even more so in a crowd, or to accurately choose individual targets, with action reticule mode vs tab mode. Sure there are things they can do to help with that, but tab will always be faster and more precise with individual targeting. Nothing they can do about that. So I feel like if you go 75% action skills with the intent to play in action mode, you'll have to relegate your 25% tab skills to easy things like a self buff or things that don't require precise or fast targeting.
If you skim through this combat page on the wiki https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat you can see that they've said to be using a system where abilities can be either tab-target or action depending on what you decide for them, meaning they're either going to be targetted or reticle-based, not both in the way I described in my previous comment. Everything in that page implies that action-combat skills are ONLY reticle-based, because they are balancing tab-target skills completely differently from reticle-based skills.
If you skim through this combat page on the wiki https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat you can see that they've said to be using a system where abilities can be either tab-target or action depending on what you decide for them, meaning they're either going to be targetted or reticle-based, not both in the way I described in my previous comment. Everything in that page implies that action-combat skills are ONLY reticle-based, because they are balancing tab-target skills completely differently from reticle-based skills.
We've seen them use GtAoEs, PbAoEs, etc. - various "action" skills - in videos/livestreams in tab target view and they've said before as well that using tab or action camera is your own preference. But you can choose which to use on your bar and indeed, all players will be forced to use some mix of both on their bar. The camera choice is more aesthetic but won't change how the skills work or whether you can even use them. It's just a change in the controls you use, but the skills on your bar will still be action or tab no matter what, and you will be able to use them no matter what control scheme you choose.
If you skim through this combat page on the wiki https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat you can see that they've said to be using a system where abilities can be either tab-target or action depending on what you decide for them, meaning they're either going to be targetted or reticle-based, not both in the way I described in my previous comment. Everything in that page implies that action-combat skills are ONLY reticle-based, because they are balancing tab-target skills completely differently from reticle-based skills.
We've seen them use GtAoEs, PbAoEs, etc. - various "action" skills - in videos/livestreams in tab target view and they've said before as well that using tab or action camera is your own preference. But you can choose which to use on your bar and indeed, all players will be forced to use some mix of both on their bar. The camera choice is more aesthetic but won't change how the skills work or whether you can even use them. It's just a change in the controls you use, but the skills on your bar will still be action or tab no matter what, and you will be able to use them no matter what control scheme you choose.
How will skills that normally track tab-targets work in this case when you spec them for action combat?
Lets say for example the twirling fireball spell that you see in most of the current footage, or an attack from a bow. What are the differences in these abilities from tab-target combat vs. action-combat? Why even have separate balancing for these abilities if they can function the same in either camera view? Why tell us skills can be modified to be either action or tab-target, and that they'll balance them differently, if you can use either one in either mode? If they can be used in either mode like GW2 then there was no reason to separate tab-target and action-combat skills to begin with. If they ARE going to be different, then why allow them the freedom to be used in either scenario?
The only reason to make a clear separation is because the controls are going to be different, which means the camera toggling is going to matter, which was my point. If there's no clear separation then the whole current system is meaningless.
Edit: I'll amend with a quick comment that I don't think Intrepid will have a bad design when we see the finalize combat, all of my opinions on this are based on the information we do have now. I'm also only expressing all my opinions in this thread to maybe give the team more perspectives and more to think about in the hopes that they'll create as perfected of a system as they can. As long as the combat is actually enjoyable to participate in I don't care how it ends up being structured.
If you skim through this combat page on the wiki https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat you can see that they've said to be using a system where abilities can be either tab-target or action depending on what you decide for them, meaning they're either going to be targetted or reticle-based, not both in the way I described in my previous comment. Everything in that page implies that action-combat skills are ONLY reticle-based, because they are balancing tab-target skills completely differently from reticle-based skills.
We've seen them use GtAoEs, PbAoEs, etc. - various "action" skills - in videos/livestreams in tab target view and they've said before as well that using tab or action camera is your own preference. But you can choose which to use on your bar and indeed, all players will be forced to use some mix of both on their bar. The camera choice is more aesthetic but won't change how the skills work or whether you can even use them. It's just a change in the controls you use, but the skills on your bar will still be action or tab no matter what, and you will be able to use them no matter what control scheme you choose.
How will skills that normally track tab-targets work in this case when you spec them for action combat?
Lets say for example the twirling fireball spell that you see in most of the current footage, or an attack from a bow. What are the differences in these abilities from tab-target combat vs. action-combat? Why even have separate balancing for these abilities if they can function the same in either camera view? Why tell us skills can be modified to be either action or tab-target, and that they'll balance them differently, if you can use either one in either mode? If they can be used in either mode like GW2 then there was no reason to separate tab-target and action-combat skills to begin with. If they ARE going to be different, then why allow them the freedom to be used in either scenario?
The only reason to make a clear separation is because the controls are going to be different, which means the camera toggling is going to matter, which was my point. If there's no clear separation then the whole current system is meaningless.
Edit: I'll amend with a quick comment that I don't think Intrepid will have a bad design when we see the finalize combat, all of my opinions on this are based on the information we do have now. I'm also only expressing all my opinions in this thread to maybe give the team more perspectives and more to think about in the hopes that they'll create as perfected of a system as they can. As long as the combat is actually enjoyable to participate in I don't care how it ends up being structured.
Well they didn't say skills will be "modified", they said there will be different types of skills. So you will have a bunch of skills to choose from to put on your bar, and some will be action combat no matter what, some will be tab target no matter what. I think this just refers to the base design - so they've said if it requires a target, it's tab target. If it's like a frontal cone AoE, it's an action skill by their definition. I think they're just offering different control schemes as a player choice sort of thing, but the skills will function the same regardless.
The only other thing worth mentioning is based on some of the skills we've seen so far, it looks like you can spec into some of them in tiers 2 and 3 to make them from tab to action skills. So the tank skill Shield Might starts out as a single target KD/Stun skill, and at Tier 2 becomes a frontal cone attack.
If you skim through this combat page on the wiki https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat you can see that they've said to be using a system where abilities can be either tab-target or action depending on what you decide for them, meaning they're either going to be targetted or reticle-based, not both in the way I described in my previous comment. Everything in that page implies that action-combat skills are ONLY reticle-based, because they are balancing tab-target skills completely differently from reticle-based skills.
We've seen them use GtAoEs, PbAoEs, etc. - various "action" skills - in videos/livestreams in tab target view and they've said before as well that using tab or action camera is your own preference. But you can choose which to use on your bar and indeed, all players will be forced to use some mix of both on their bar. The camera choice is more aesthetic but won't change how the skills work or whether you can even use them. It's just a change in the controls you use, but the skills on your bar will still be action or tab no matter what, and you will be able to use them no matter what control scheme you choose.
How will skills that normally track tab-targets work in this case when you spec them for action combat?
Lets say for example the twirling fireball spell that you see in most of the current footage, or an attack from a bow. What are the differences in these abilities from tab-target combat vs. action-combat? Why even have separate balancing for these abilities if they can function the same in either camera view? Why tell us skills can be modified to be either action or tab-target, and that they'll balance them differently, if you can use either one in either mode? If they can be used in either mode like GW2 then there was no reason to separate tab-target and action-combat skills to begin with. If they ARE going to be different, then why allow them the freedom to be used in either scenario?
The only reason to make a clear separation is because the controls are going to be different, which means the camera toggling is going to matter, which was my point. If there's no clear separation then the whole current system is meaningless.
Edit: I'll amend with a quick comment that I don't think Intrepid will have a bad design when we see the finalize combat, all of my opinions on this are based on the information we do have now. I'm also only expressing all my opinions in this thread to maybe give the team more perspectives and more to think about in the hopes that they'll create as perfected of a system as they can. As long as the combat is actually enjoyable to participate in I don't care how it ends up being structured.
Well they didn't say skills will be "modified", they said there will be different types of skills. So you will have a bunch of skills to choose from to put on your bar, and some will be action combat no matter what, some will be tab target no matter what. I think this just refers to the base design - so they've said if it requires a target, it's tab target. If it's like a frontal cone AoE, it's an action skill by their definition. I think they're just offering different control schemes as a player choice sort of thing, but the skills will function the same regardless.
The only other thing worth mentioning is based on some of the skills we've seen so far, it looks like you can spec into some of them in tiers 2 and 3 to make them from tab to action skills. So the tank skill Shield Might starts out as a single target KD/Stun skill, and at Tier 2 becomes a frontal cone attack.
From the wiki, which I had already linked as a source in my previous comment and which you disregarded.
"Action oriented and tab oriented versions of skills will have different characteristics. Variables will change based on which version is chosen"
and also the conversation within the next 3 minutes and more of this interview with Steven himself, also found on the combat page https://youtube.com/watch?v=IXIpLC__7fA&feature=youtu.be&t=1h07m59s
"As an example: Let's say you're playing a ranged class. You could have an action-oriented power shot in your skill tree or you could have a single target power shot that ramps up and does more damage" - Steven
Edit: I just realized I didn't really bring it all around to address your comment. Like I said in my previous comment, if some abilities are ONLY tab-target while others are ONLY reticle-based that creates a jarring kind of gameplay interaction as you have to switch between the two.
To be clear, when I'm referring to Action combat skills, I'm referring to frontal cones, projectiles (like bows or fireballs), etc.
If skills can be EITHER of the two for the sake of inclusivity in the aspect of attracting both types of players, then wouldn't it make more sense to make all abilities just true hybrid like GW2 or ESO do than to have this strange separation between the two?
To be honest from all the information available so far, AoC's combat sounds less like a true hybrid combat system like ESO/GW2 and more like a seperate Tab-target system + Action combat system. And that sounds like it could very possibly end up jarring if not done correctly.
It's a difference between making cheesecake, and making cheese and placing it on top of a cake.
From the wiki, which I had already linked as a source in my previous comment and which you disregarded.
"Action oriented and tab oriented versions of skills will have different characteristics. Variables will change based on which version is chosen"
and also the conversation within the next 3 minutes and more of this interview with Steven himself, also found on the combat page https://youtube.com/watch?v=IXIpLC__7fA&feature=youtu.be&t=1h07m59s
"As an example: Let's say you're playing a ranged class. You could have an action-oriented power shot in your skill tree or you could have a single target power shot that ramps up and does more damage" - Steven
Edit: To be honest from all the information available so far, AoC's combat sounds less like a true hybrid combat system like ESO/GW2 and more like a seperate Tab-target system + Action combat system. And that sounds like it could very possibly end up jarring if not done correctly.
It's a difference between making cheesecake, and making cheese and placing it on top of a cake.
I didn't disregard your link. I've read that page, I read it again when you linked it and again today, and I've watched the video. It doesn't disagree with what I've said. Even in that part of the interview, he says pretty clearly that you will have different skills to choose from - both action and tab skills - and it's up to the player to decide which of those skills to spec points into and then use. Even what you quoted says the same thing. I'm not sure what you're trying to say?
Are you confused about this part - "Variables will change based on which version is chosen". Steven discusses that in the video, but that's just a reference to how action skills and tab skills will be inherently different. Not that the skills will change, but that from the get-go they will be designed differently and balance differently (which makes sense). But you're still choosing which skills you want and which you don't. Your choice doesn't change the skill (unless of course they go further as they did with that Tank skill Shield Might, which is a choice further down the line after you've chosen to spec into and use the skill, you can then spec further into it to do even more stuff).
I'll copy-paste my edit because you actually beat me to finishing it before you replied
"I just realized I didn't really bring it all around to address your comment. Like I said in my previous comment, if some abilities are ONLY tab-target while others are ONLY reticle-based that creates a jarring kind of gameplay interaction as you have to switch between the two.
To be clear, when I'm referring to Action combat skills, I'm referring to frontal cones, projectiles (like bows or fireballs), etc.
If skills can be EITHER of the two for the sake of inclusivity in the aspect of attracting both types of players, then wouldn't it make more sense to make all abilities just true hybrid like GW2 or ESO do than to have this strange separation between the two?"
And sure, it's not entirely clear what Steven is saying since he can't be specific, but the one example he does use goes exactly towards what I've been saying.
Why have two different versions of power shot? Why not create the Action-Combat version, and then make it just auto-target if you're doing tab-target mode. I know I keep bringing it up like beating a dead horse, but that is exactly what GW2 does and it works flawlessly.
If they designed all skills around that concept, they wouldn't need to add these extra layers of balancing and control schemes.
It honestly just feels like they are trying to add both systems, but not really actually combining them, and instead keeping them in some quasi-separate form, like I said in my cheesecake analogy.
I get what you're saying in that players can choose how they want to play and stuff, but there's going to be versions of abilities that are just better when you split them like that, that's just going to happen as it does in every game.
Coupled with the 25% required tab or action spells, and action spells like using bows or projectile/hitscan abilities, swapping between cameras is a thing that's going to happen, based off the information we have. You can do tab-target skills in action-cam, as is shown in ESO, but you can't do Reticle-based action skills in MMO camera mode efficiently. This means that for combat Action-cam is almost going to be required to be mastered by everyone and be toggled on at all times because nobody likes swapping camera modes mid-combat.
Edit: Again I'll say I know I'm being a bit nitpicky on the little information we do have right now, but I want to better understand their intentions or maybe how the current setup that we know about can work without being clunky
I'll copy-paste my edit because you actually beat me to finishing it before you replied
"I just realized I didn't really bring it all around to address your comment. Like I said in my previous comment, if some abilities are ONLY tab-target while others are ONLY reticle-based that creates a jarring kind of gameplay interaction as you have to switch between the two.
To be clear, when I'm referring to Action combat skills, I'm referring to frontal cones, projectiles (like bows or fireballs), etc.
Well there's a few key points that help to understand what he's saying. I'd say for now, disregard the idea of reticule mode/action camera, vs tab target mode because I don't think that has anything to do with how skills work, just the controls you decide to use. That's just confusing the matter a bit.
His definition of what a tab target skill is vs what an action skill is, can at it's simplest be broken down to one question:
Does this skill require a target to cast? Then it's tab target. If it does not require a target, it's action combat.
So your skill shot example that Steven talked about earlier is in line with this. It does not require a target. Based on what he said, the "action" version of this ranged skill would be a line AoE on the ground, so the player would place themselves in the right spot to get this AoE to hit the intended target, and it might also potentially hit other targets in the way as well. So no target required, just an AoE effect on the ground - but a skinny line AoE to mimic it being an arrow shot for example.
The tab version of this would require a target and be a simple single target damage ability. So when you mention "projectiles", that by itself doesn't say much. Even in this example, both of these skills would have an arrow projectile, but they are targeted in different ways - AoE vs targeted single target. I don't think it's going to be jarring at all when you consider how they'll function.
Why have two different versions of power shot? Why not create the Action-Combat version, and then make it just auto-target if you're doing tab-target mode.
Well that's just a tab target skill then. If it requires a target, it's tab target. You can still use it in action camera mode, and I have to assume (I don't know but logically speaking here) that using action camera mode (so the control scheme here, not changing skills) would auto target the skill like in ESO or GW2.
I get what you're saying in that players can choose how they want to play and stuff, but there's going to be versions of abilities that are just better when you split them like that, that's just going to happen as it does in every game.
Well we don't know this yet until we see them in game. But from the video we've been quoting (link below to this particular section of it) he does address that balance. He says that because the action version of this power shot is an AoE (small line AoE) and has the potential to hit more than one target, it'll do less damage than the tab target ability, because the tab target ability can only ever hit one person. And then both would have additional affects as well.
So this is where that quote comes into play "Action oriented and tab oriented versions of skills will have different characteristics. Variables will change based on which version is chosen.[13]". This is how they balance the skills out. How well that balance turns out is of course to be determined, but that's the plan at least.
Well there's a few key points that help to understand what he's saying. I'd say for now, disregard the idea of reticule mode/action camera, vs tab target mode because I don't think that has anything to do with how skills work, just the controls you decide to use. That's just confusing the matter a bit.
This is just not true, there's so much footage of players running around in third person view shooting arrows and spells using reticle-based aiming. I know a lot of it is Apocalypse footage, but Apocalypse was their testing ground for AoC combat.
You can't just simplify all "non-target" skills as one type of Action skill.
There's ground target action skills, ground directional action skills (like the narrow line arrow example you used), there's frontal-based action skills, and there's reticle-based action skills (like third person shooters, or in AoC, bows and projectile/hitscan based spells like the lightning spell in Apocalypse).
The thing is, with all the footage of the Reticle-based type of Action combat skills, it's hard to assume that they aren't going to be in the game, and Reticle-based type of Action combat skills REQUIRE an Action-camera mode to use, unless you make them auto-target a tab-target like they do in GW2.
His definition of what a tab target skill is vs what an action skill is, can at it's simplest be broken down to one question:
Does this skill require a target to cast? Then it's tab target. If it does not require a target, it's action combat.
So your skill shot example that Steven talked about earlier is in line with this. It does not require a target. Based on what he said, the "action" version of this ranged skill would be a line AoE on the ground, so the player would place themselves in the right spot to get this AoE to hit the intended target, and it might also potentially hit other targets in the way as well. So no target required, just an AoE effect on the ground - but a skinny line AoE to mimic it being an arrow shot for example.
This again is just not true.
In this video example that you linked Steven actually confirms that Reticle-based abilities are in the game. He says, and I quote "An action oriented skill is anything that can be utilized by placement of the player. Whether that be placement on a reticle, placement on the ground, and template directional placement.."
With the confirmation of reticle-based skills, of which I'm assuming power shot will be because It's a bow skill and there's already plenty of footage of reticle-based bow combat, which I guess I'll actually rename as Shooter skills to better help us understand what I'm talking about, we go right back to the problem I was describing.
If you have shooter skills mixed in with traditional MMO skills then the camera-switching is something that's going to happen unless the auto-targeting for shooter skills exist. But then if auto-targeting for shooter skills exists, then why have split abilities (power shot and others like the shield ability)?
Do you see what I mean? Either they've found a way to blend them together smoothly in a way they haven't shown yet, or there's going to be an inherent clunkiness/jarringness to the combat in the final product.
Edit: Or everyone's going to default to playing in Shooter-cam like ESO because you can implement tab-targeting in Shooter-cam far easier than you can add Shooter-targeting in MMO-cam
Edit2: I know he's not an official source or anything but I've asked Jahlon about if the Action combat is going to be the Apocalypse combat, and he confirmed it's going to be a polished version of it. He's not an Intrepid dev so I know it's to be taken with a grain of salt but if that's the truth it just confirms that there's some credence to my worries
I know I'm double-posting (I try my best to just edit my most recent posts instead) but I'm just going to add this here because LazyPeon just released a GW2 2020 review like 3 hours ago and in it he himself praises it as the best hybrid Action/Tab target MMO he's seen so far, so I'm hoping this helps people understand why I've been so passionate about it in this thread and others.
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I don't want to but the great mobility and dynamic combat experienced in that game was so nice (even the consistency of animations). I'm not saying AoC has to be the same, but feel good like that at the end.
It was difficult to suss out what you were saying because of the way you used the quoting system, but I think the general gist is that you think Action Combat and Tab-Target are mutually exclusive options?
If that's the case, and I apologize if I'm misreading you, I'm going to have to ironically direct you to GW2 as an example of a system that uses both smoothly and expertly as one system. I'll reiterate in more clarity to help you and other readers understand what I'm talking about.
In GW2 every skill is a "skillshot"/Action-combat skill but simultaneously also a tab-target ability. There are exceptions, being Ground Target AoE's, directional cone AoE's, or some special skillshots like Dragonhunter's Bow3 skill, all which can actually be made to autocast on tab-target location if you desire it (something that I personally never do but the option is there).
With that said, GW2 has two camera modes just like AoC is said to have. You have the normal MMO camera, and the over-the-shoulder reticle-based action cam. Now the cool thing is you can free-fire all skills, and they can will fire in any 3d-space direction (skill-dependant). Your Bow/Rifle Auto-attack? Can fire straight up or into the ground if you desire (in either camera mode). All of these said skills can also be tab-target cast, meaning that Bow/Rifle Auto-attack will fire at the current tab-target, and will track that target the same way ranged auto-attacks track targets in regular tab-target MMO's. In some cases, these attacks can be blocked by other enemies standing between you and your target, and in others it will pass through both and deal damage to both if it's a piercing ability.
There are obviously some outlier skills like Necro's Axe1 skill which is ranged and doesn't have a projectile component, instantly applying it's effect to the target. In Action-cam mode this ability works the same as a hitscan-based gun in any fps. In a game like AoC, any targetted instant-application effects like buffs or curses could work the same way.
If I've done a good job of explaining, you can see how there's little reason why the AoC combat can't be a true hybrid system.
What scares me about the info we have so far is that it sounds like Action-combat skills will REQUIRE you to be in action-cam mode. I don't think It hasn't been mentioned if you can tab-target while in action-cam mode (which you can do in both ESO and GW2), but I'm assuming you will be able to.
What scares me about this is that if we're in the middle of combat, and I've been using my tab-target abilities, but suddenly I need to use one of my Action-combat reticle-based skills, I'll have to switch camera modes to Action-cam to use those abilities. This means that my camera would be constantly switching back and forth while I'm playing which can be disorienting in the least.
To top that off, it is said that you are required to have at least 25% of either tab-target or action-combat skills on your bar, meaning if the scenario I mentioned just above is the case, everyone will deal with that disorientation.
Edit: Not to say I don't believe Intrepid isn't going to create a fun fluid combat, I'm just basing all of my opinions on what information we have so far.
Why wouldn't you be able to use your action combat skills in tab mode? None of the things I've read require a reticle. You can very easily aim those skills either with the mouse for GtAoE, or by positioning your character in the appropriate way for most other types of action skills. I think the opposite is more the concern.
I'm ok in tab mode for everything, but for people who want to play in action mode, I think they'd be at a disadvantage for any targeted skills. It's not as easy to switch targets, even more so in a crowd, or to accurately choose individual targets, with action reticule mode vs tab mode. Sure there are things they can do to help with that, but tab will always be faster and more precise with individual targeting. Nothing they can do about that. So I feel like if you go 75% action skills with the intent to play in action mode, you'll have to relegate your 25% tab skills to easy things like a self buff or things that don't require precise or fast targeting.
If you skim through this combat page on the wiki https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat you can see that they've said to be using a system where abilities can be either tab-target or action depending on what you decide for them, meaning they're either going to be targetted or reticle-based, not both in the way I described in my previous comment. Everything in that page implies that action-combat skills are ONLY reticle-based, because they are balancing tab-target skills completely differently from reticle-based skills.
We've seen them use GtAoEs, PbAoEs, etc. - various "action" skills - in videos/livestreams in tab target view and they've said before as well that using tab or action camera is your own preference. But you can choose which to use on your bar and indeed, all players will be forced to use some mix of both on their bar. The camera choice is more aesthetic but won't change how the skills work or whether you can even use them. It's just a change in the controls you use, but the skills on your bar will still be action or tab no matter what, and you will be able to use them no matter what control scheme you choose.
How will skills that normally track tab-targets work in this case when you spec them for action combat?
Lets say for example the twirling fireball spell that you see in most of the current footage, or an attack from a bow. What are the differences in these abilities from tab-target combat vs. action-combat? Why even have separate balancing for these abilities if they can function the same in either camera view? Why tell us skills can be modified to be either action or tab-target, and that they'll balance them differently, if you can use either one in either mode? If they can be used in either mode like GW2 then there was no reason to separate tab-target and action-combat skills to begin with. If they ARE going to be different, then why allow them the freedom to be used in either scenario?
The only reason to make a clear separation is because the controls are going to be different, which means the camera toggling is going to matter, which was my point. If there's no clear separation then the whole current system is meaningless.
Edit: I'll amend with a quick comment that I don't think Intrepid will have a bad design when we see the finalize combat, all of my opinions on this are based on the information we do have now. I'm also only expressing all my opinions in this thread to maybe give the team more perspectives and more to think about in the hopes that they'll create as perfected of a system as they can. As long as the combat is actually enjoyable to participate in I don't care how it ends up being structured.
Well they didn't say skills will be "modified", they said there will be different types of skills. So you will have a bunch of skills to choose from to put on your bar, and some will be action combat no matter what, some will be tab target no matter what. I think this just refers to the base design - so they've said if it requires a target, it's tab target. If it's like a frontal cone AoE, it's an action skill by their definition. I think they're just offering different control schemes as a player choice sort of thing, but the skills will function the same regardless.
The only other thing worth mentioning is based on some of the skills we've seen so far, it looks like you can spec into some of them in tiers 2 and 3 to make them from tab to action skills. So the tank skill Shield Might starts out as a single target KD/Stun skill, and at Tier 2 becomes a frontal cone attack.
From the wiki, which I had already linked as a source in my previous comment and which you disregarded.
"Action oriented and tab oriented versions of skills will have different characteristics. Variables will change based on which version is chosen"
and also the conversation within the next 3 minutes and more of this interview with Steven himself, also found on the combat page
https://youtube.com/watch?v=IXIpLC__7fA&feature=youtu.be&t=1h07m59s
"As an example: Let's say you're playing a ranged class. You could have an action-oriented power shot in your skill tree or you could have a single target power shot that ramps up and does more damage" - Steven
Edit: I just realized I didn't really bring it all around to address your comment. Like I said in my previous comment, if some abilities are ONLY tab-target while others are ONLY reticle-based that creates a jarring kind of gameplay interaction as you have to switch between the two.
To be clear, when I'm referring to Action combat skills, I'm referring to frontal cones, projectiles (like bows or fireballs), etc.
If skills can be EITHER of the two for the sake of inclusivity in the aspect of attracting both types of players, then wouldn't it make more sense to make all abilities just true hybrid like GW2 or ESO do than to have this strange separation between the two?
To be honest from all the information available so far, AoC's combat sounds less like a true hybrid combat system like ESO/GW2 and more like a seperate Tab-target system + Action combat system. And that sounds like it could very possibly end up jarring if not done correctly.
It's a difference between making cheesecake, and making cheese and placing it on top of a cake.
I didn't disregard your link. I've read that page, I read it again when you linked it and again today, and I've watched the video. It doesn't disagree with what I've said. Even in that part of the interview, he says pretty clearly that you will have different skills to choose from - both action and tab skills - and it's up to the player to decide which of those skills to spec points into and then use. Even what you quoted says the same thing. I'm not sure what you're trying to say?
Are you confused about this part - "Variables will change based on which version is chosen". Steven discusses that in the video, but that's just a reference to how action skills and tab skills will be inherently different. Not that the skills will change, but that from the get-go they will be designed differently and balance differently (which makes sense). But you're still choosing which skills you want and which you don't. Your choice doesn't change the skill (unless of course they go further as they did with that Tank skill Shield Might, which is a choice further down the line after you've chosen to spec into and use the skill, you can then spec further into it to do even more stuff).
"I just realized I didn't really bring it all around to address your comment. Like I said in my previous comment, if some abilities are ONLY tab-target while others are ONLY reticle-based that creates a jarring kind of gameplay interaction as you have to switch between the two.
To be clear, when I'm referring to Action combat skills, I'm referring to frontal cones, projectiles (like bows or fireballs), etc.
If skills can be EITHER of the two for the sake of inclusivity in the aspect of attracting both types of players, then wouldn't it make more sense to make all abilities just true hybrid like GW2 or ESO do than to have this strange separation between the two?"
And sure, it's not entirely clear what Steven is saying since he can't be specific, but the one example he does use goes exactly towards what I've been saying.
Why have two different versions of power shot? Why not create the Action-Combat version, and then make it just auto-target if you're doing tab-target mode. I know I keep bringing it up like beating a dead horse, but that is exactly what GW2 does and it works flawlessly.
If they designed all skills around that concept, they wouldn't need to add these extra layers of balancing and control schemes.
It honestly just feels like they are trying to add both systems, but not really actually combining them, and instead keeping them in some quasi-separate form, like I said in my cheesecake analogy.
I get what you're saying in that players can choose how they want to play and stuff, but there's going to be versions of abilities that are just better when you split them like that, that's just going to happen as it does in every game.
Coupled with the 25% required tab or action spells, and action spells like using bows or projectile/hitscan abilities, swapping between cameras is a thing that's going to happen, based off the information we have. You can do tab-target skills in action-cam, as is shown in ESO, but you can't do Reticle-based action skills in MMO camera mode efficiently. This means that for combat Action-cam is almost going to be required to be mastered by everyone and be toggled on at all times because nobody likes swapping camera modes mid-combat.
Edit: Again I'll say I know I'm being a bit nitpicky on the little information we do have right now, but I want to better understand their intentions or maybe how the current setup that we know about can work without being clunky
Well there's a few key points that help to understand what he's saying. I'd say for now, disregard the idea of reticule mode/action camera, vs tab target mode because I don't think that has anything to do with how skills work, just the controls you decide to use. That's just confusing the matter a bit.
His definition of what a tab target skill is vs what an action skill is, can at it's simplest be broken down to one question:
Does this skill require a target to cast? Then it's tab target. If it does not require a target, it's action combat.
Steven answered this question directly and went into more details here -
So your skill shot example that Steven talked about earlier is in line with this. It does not require a target. Based on what he said, the "action" version of this ranged skill would be a line AoE on the ground, so the player would place themselves in the right spot to get this AoE to hit the intended target, and it might also potentially hit other targets in the way as well. So no target required, just an AoE effect on the ground - but a skinny line AoE to mimic it being an arrow shot for example.
The tab version of this would require a target and be a simple single target damage ability. So when you mention "projectiles", that by itself doesn't say much. Even in this example, both of these skills would have an arrow projectile, but they are targeted in different ways - AoE vs targeted single target. I don't think it's going to be jarring at all when you consider how they'll function.
Well that's just a tab target skill then. If it requires a target, it's tab target. You can still use it in action camera mode, and I have to assume (I don't know but logically speaking here) that using action camera mode (so the control scheme here, not changing skills) would auto target the skill like in ESO or GW2.
Well we don't know this yet until we see them in game. But from the video we've been quoting (link below to this particular section of it) he does address that balance. He says that because the action version of this power shot is an AoE (small line AoE) and has the potential to hit more than one target, it'll do less damage than the tab target ability, because the tab target ability can only ever hit one person. And then both would have additional affects as well.
So this is where that quote comes into play "Action oriented and tab oriented versions of skills will have different characteristics. Variables will change based on which version is chosen.[13]". This is how they balance the skills out. How well that balance turns out is of course to be determined, but that's the plan at least.
This is just not true, there's so much footage of players running around in third person view shooting arrows and spells using reticle-based aiming. I know a lot of it is Apocalypse footage, but Apocalypse was their testing ground for AoC combat.
You can't just simplify all "non-target" skills as one type of Action skill.
There's ground target action skills, ground directional action skills (like the narrow line arrow example you used), there's frontal-based action skills, and there's reticle-based action skills (like third person shooters, or in AoC, bows and projectile/hitscan based spells like the lightning spell in Apocalypse).
The thing is, with all the footage of the Reticle-based type of Action combat skills, it's hard to assume that they aren't going to be in the game, and Reticle-based type of Action combat skills REQUIRE an Action-camera mode to use, unless you make them auto-target a tab-target like they do in GW2.
This again is just not true.
In this video example that you linked Steven actually confirms that Reticle-based abilities are in the game. He says, and I quote "An action oriented skill is anything that can be utilized by placement of the player. Whether that be placement on a reticle, placement on the ground, and template directional placement.."
With the confirmation of reticle-based skills, of which I'm assuming power shot will be because It's a bow skill and there's already plenty of footage of reticle-based bow combat, which I guess I'll actually rename as Shooter skills to better help us understand what I'm talking about, we go right back to the problem I was describing.
If you have shooter skills mixed in with traditional MMO skills then the camera-switching is something that's going to happen unless the auto-targeting for shooter skills exist. But then if auto-targeting for shooter skills exists, then why have split abilities (power shot and others like the shield ability)?
Do you see what I mean? Either they've found a way to blend them together smoothly in a way they haven't shown yet, or there's going to be an inherent clunkiness/jarringness to the combat in the final product.
Edit: Or everyone's going to default to playing in Shooter-cam like ESO because you can implement tab-targeting in Shooter-cam far easier than you can add Shooter-targeting in MMO-cam
Edit2: I know he's not an official source or anything but I've asked Jahlon about if the Action combat is going to be the Apocalypse combat, and he confirmed it's going to be a polished version of it. He's not an Intrepid dev so I know it's to be taken with a grain of salt but if that's the truth it just confirms that there's some credence to my worries
https://youtu.be/Tvco6ISqvEw?t=924