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Dynamic Archetypes
MindFork
Member
Thanks all who took part on the discussion. Already the first comments have shown me multiple places which were wrong from the first brainstorming. I also don't like on some places how I tried to explain the feature. Before completely giving it up I would still like to try to present it in a way different form taken into account the feedback and rethinking multiple things.
1) What is meant by dynamic Archetype:
Dynamic archetype will be a posibility to master skills of more than 1 archetype learn the skills independent from class and to be able to switch the archetypes depending on the situation to adapt the build dynamically. The archetype would be built dynamically depending on the actions you perform and not by the choise you do at the beginning.
2) Advantage of dynamic Archetype:
- The main point is that you would be able to try all basics with your main char without creating any alt. And depending on your expirience with different instruments one or another will fit better to your gameplay. The new skills would be unlocked depending on the skills which you are mostly using. In short this system should help you to select the archetype you are most comfortalbe with.
- One another advantage is - it would learn people how to play their class right. The system should analyze how the person is playing. You would not get tank related skills if you are not playing agressive anough. You will not get some agility skills if you are too often hit by enemies instead of engaging.
3) Mechanic of dynamic archetypes:
- In first step you would get maybe only the primitive skills like learning how to hit with onehand weapon or two hand weapon.
- To unlock next skills you would need to fullfill the requirements for them by mastering the basics. Your behavior in battle will also be kind of condition. The system will propose you to unlock first the skills which it thinks is best for you according to your gameplay.
- The more far you go, the more time you would need to spend on the lvling of skills to unlock the next.
- If you are not using something which you learned before you start to forget it. Means if you would like to try something new you would need to start from the basics and be ready that the stuff you already learned would get forgotten.
Example:
currently you can select mage as your primary archetype and as secondary. There will be possibility to switch second archetype to get another branch of the build.
By dynamic archetype more or less same will happen, but more smoother. You will become less mage, but in this time you would learn skills of another branch.
Currently if I understood right the switch will be possible by doing quest, or something like this. By dynamic archetype system there would be no need of a quest, you would just skill it and spend the time this way. And on the way you go to your goal you would already be used to new skills and specificity.
PS: by dynamic achetype there will be no notion of primary and secondary archetype. In fact the one which less used will dissapear.
1) What is meant by dynamic Archetype:
Dynamic archetype will be a posibility to master skills of more than 1 archetype learn the skills independent from class and to be able to switch the archetypes depending on the situation to adapt the build dynamically. The archetype would be built dynamically depending on the actions you perform and not by the choise you do at the beginning.
2) Advantage of dynamic Archetype:
- The main point is that you would be able to try all basics with your main char without creating any alt. And depending on your expirience with different instruments one or another will fit better to your gameplay. The new skills would be unlocked depending on the skills which you are mostly using. In short this system should help you to select the archetype you are most comfortalbe with.
- One another advantage is - it would learn people how to play their class right. The system should analyze how the person is playing. You would not get tank related skills if you are not playing agressive anough. You will not get some agility skills if you are too often hit by enemies instead of engaging.
a) It provides understanding what to expect in PvP against another archetype.
b) It provides understanding what to expect from your teammembers by knowing which skills, etc. they have, and to understand what exactly happening when this or that is casted.
c) It is hard to select the Archetype you are born for just by the first choise. By dynamic archetype system you would be able to skill multiple nodes, to test them and then invest more time to skill of the node, which you like more.
d) When the game is 5 years old and older - dynamic archetype would be very friendly for the new incoming people to demostrate them different skill nodes.
e) Some content of the game is open only to specific archetypes which forces to take them, even if you don't want to play them, but just wants to not miss something interesting. In example some archetypes can see traces, which could lead to something interesting, why do we need this binding? Or some can see the traps - with dynamic archetypes all would see the traps, but some would do it better, some would be bad at it.
f) It provides the possibility to switch the role in group if someone is leaving. Lets say maintank has left, what to do? Over? No - someone switching the archetype to tank by equiping shield and you can continue.
g) The more we have to master the more good feeling we get at the end.
h) If some new patch is killing your main archetype - pff, then you just focus another one.
i) Having this feature we would always have something to improove on us. It would keep players not bored for longer time. I know that some players are managing it to get the end game in shortest time... Like this they would always have to archive something.
j) There are much more positive side effects of having this, but the main is - we want to go through the game with only ONE character. Not having X characters to try each skill etc. But to master our all and everything.
b) It provides understanding what to expect from your teammembers by knowing which skills, etc. they have, and to understand what exactly happening when this or that is casted.
c) It is hard to select the Archetype you are born for just by the first choise. By dynamic archetype system you would be able to skill multiple nodes, to test them and then invest more time to skill of the node, which you like more.
d) When the game is 5 years old and older - dynamic archetype would be very friendly for the new incoming people to demostrate them different skill nodes.
e) Some content of the game is open only to specific archetypes which forces to take them, even if you don't want to play them, but just wants to not miss something interesting. In example some archetypes can see traces, which could lead to something interesting, why do we need this binding? Or some can see the traps - with dynamic archetypes all would see the traps, but some would do it better, some would be bad at it.
f) It provides the possibility to switch the role in group if someone is leaving. Lets say maintank has left, what to do? Over? No - someone switching the archetype to tank by equiping shield and you can continue.
g) The more we have to master the more good feeling we get at the end.
h) If some new patch is killing your main archetype - pff, then you just focus another one.
i) Having this feature we would always have something to improove on us. It would keep players not bored for longer time. I know that some players are managing it to get the end game in shortest time... Like this they would always have to archive something.
j) There are much more positive side effects of having this, but the main is - we want to go through the game with only ONE character. Not having X characters to try each skill etc. But to master our all and everything.
3) Mechanic of dynamic archetypes:
- In first step you would get maybe only the primitive skills like learning how to hit with onehand weapon or two hand weapon.
- To unlock next skills you would need to fullfill the requirements for them by mastering the basics. Your behavior in battle will also be kind of condition. The system will propose you to unlock first the skills which it thinks is best for you according to your gameplay.
- The more far you go, the more time you would need to spend on the lvling of skills to unlock the next.
- If you are not using something which you learned before you start to forget it. Means if you would like to try something new you would need to start from the basics and be ready that the stuff you already learned would get forgotten.
Example:
currently you can select mage as your primary archetype and as secondary. There will be possibility to switch second archetype to get another branch of the build.
By dynamic archetype more or less same will happen, but more smoother. You will become less mage, but in this time you would learn skills of another branch.
Currently if I understood right the switch will be possible by doing quest, or something like this. By dynamic archetype system there would be no need of a quest, you would just skill it and spend the time this way. And on the way you go to your goal you would already be used to new skills and specificity.
PS: by dynamic achetype there will be no notion of primary and secondary archetype. In fact the one which less used will dissapear.
a) The current archetype is defined by the current weapon you have equiped. Not all skills are bound to a specific weapons. Example: Shield hit can be done only if shield is equiped. But to detect the trap - you don't need to have specific archetype.
b) The archetype powers up some skills. Example: you can detect traps even as warrior, but having the staff or dagger equiped would make the skill more effective. Or even another way round, not having those equiped would make it less effective. The more effective the skill is the better chance you have to detect the trap.
c) Fast weapon switch allowed only between 2 weapon equipments. By PvP it is often the case that 1 Archetype can counter another one. Switch between 2 archetypes brings more balance to such duels. At the tournamet noone would know beforehand which 2 archetypes you have selected, which would always bring interesting surprise. And having 2 archetypes would give the possibility to combine and to cover the weakness of 1 archetype by another one to combine some distanced archetype with a melee one.
d) The 2 main archetypes cannot be rerolled any time. You can select them only by specific conditions, like 10 minutes without battle etc. You cannot switch archetype just during battle or during dungeon, but in dungeons will be some checkpoints where you will be allowed to switch (purpose: if someone disconected and you need to replace his role by someone else i.e.). You cannot reselect archetype during a siege or to do it each 5 minutes.
e) Having multiple archetypes does not mean, that if you are lvl 100500 you can just reroll and have everything learned for another archetype - not at all. There will be no understanding of skill points how we know them. The skills will be mastered only when you use them. I.e. you cannot learn a double shot with bow, if you have not mastered a single shot to rang X or to 100% what ever mechanic is selected. To master the archetype you will need really to spend the time with this archetype. And to get progress on such skills as detecting the traps etc you would need to detect traps etc. But the skills could be used to make some new basic or advanced skills available to be skilled. Like for learning double shot you need master single shot + invest some skill points.
It is kind of brainstorming first. The idea could be extended much more far. But first I would like to get some feedback from the community and administration how they would like it and if this can ever happen.
Thanks for you Attention!
b) The archetype powers up some skills. Example: you can detect traps even as warrior, but having the staff or dagger equiped would make the skill more effective. Or even another way round, not having those equiped would make it less effective. The more effective the skill is the better chance you have to detect the trap.
c) Fast weapon switch allowed only between 2 weapon equipments. By PvP it is often the case that 1 Archetype can counter another one. Switch between 2 archetypes brings more balance to such duels. At the tournamet noone would know beforehand which 2 archetypes you have selected, which would always bring interesting surprise. And having 2 archetypes would give the possibility to combine and to cover the weakness of 1 archetype by another one to combine some distanced archetype with a melee one.
d) The 2 main archetypes cannot be rerolled any time. You can select them only by specific conditions, like 10 minutes without battle etc. You cannot switch archetype just during battle or during dungeon, but in dungeons will be some checkpoints where you will be allowed to switch (purpose: if someone disconected and you need to replace his role by someone else i.e.). You cannot reselect archetype during a siege or to do it each 5 minutes.
e) Having multiple archetypes does not mean, that if you are lvl 100500 you can just reroll and have everything learned for another archetype - not at all. There will be no understanding of skill points how we know them. The skills will be mastered only when you use them. I.e. you cannot learn a double shot with bow, if you have not mastered a single shot to rang X or to 100% what ever mechanic is selected. To master the archetype you will need really to spend the time with this archetype. And to get progress on such skills as detecting the traps etc you would need to detect traps etc. But the skills could be used to make some new basic or advanced skills available to be skilled. Like for learning double shot you need master single shot + invest some skill points.
It is kind of brainstorming first. The idea could be extended much more far. But first I would like to get some feedback from the community and administration how they would like it and if this can ever happen.
Thanks for you Attention!
0
Comments
No.
Exactly.
There is this WoW Private Server with EXACTLY this premise.
Do you know what happened? Everyone started stacking certain on hit buffs and began onceshotting each other.
This means that when you make a choice, you get a thing. It also means that when you make a choice, you don't get a thing.
When you create a class, you get those abilities. You specifically don't get the abilities of the other classes.
This is good.
However this is not the goal of AoC and I am glad for it, because division of the playerbase into 8 base archetypes is enough diversity. Also from the way it was talked about I suppose that basically any base archetype could tank dungeons (if they took tank as secondary archetype), but you still want a dedicated tank to do the hardest content.
― Plato
― Plato
Would be okay with that as long as you get reset to lvl 1 and it would include a lengthy hellish questline.
Do you realize that any sane person would just delete the character and create a new one with the same name?
― Plato
Of course i do^^
sounds like a solid system. i like it
Yeah, agree and this goes already into details. Normaly the idea is by switch only the weapon you will only get some another skills which are bound only to this weapon. But of cource this weapon should also fit the rest of your gear. Just a streight example if you whole build full intellect and you switch from stuff to sword, you would not be able to deal heavy damage with it.
The rules when exactly and how the switch is posibile can also be specified more strict.
Thanks all for taking time for reading and giving a feedback!
First: its nice for you to engage such a controversial discussion!
Second: there are skills that depend on your weapon. A bard will have the same spear weapon skills as a warrior or a mage.
Third: the "reading the traces stuff" is a special ranger ability which is their "specialty". A tank can see invisible enemies (kind of), a cleric can cleanse poison, a rogue can find invisible doors or treasure, a mage can lift enchantments, etc. Its all about the choice of you choosing that class at the beginning. If you go mage, then you will have to live with the fact that you wont be able to go invisible
Fourth: freedom is okay, but not if it takes away the importance of choice
Alright bro. I know you are catching a lot of crap from everyone for your thread but I am going to break each of your suggestions down from my own perspective. I've noticed a lot of healthy discussion on these forums and I hope to add to that : ).
1) I'm starting as a tank for my guild so we can ensure that raid progression and constant organized play is accessible for the whole guild. If others can easily switch to tank, my value is now lowered. gear will be a nightmare to maintain and acquire as well.
2) We don't and here's why
A)If people can't learn how other classes are played through communication or pvp, they don't deserve to survive.
B)Same answer from A
C)You can easily re-roll your character if you don't like what you have. You should get a general feel for how the gameplay will be in the first few hours.
D)Making something too user friendly IMO is just bad for games that intend to live for a long time. If the game is 5 years old and someone is joining it, it will be because they've seen videos on it or have friends who play. The difficulty for newbies at that point will not be a factor is further success.
E)Where you see class specific talents as a negative, I see it as a positive. Rogues finding hidden loot areas to explore, tanks being able to get their faces smashed in and survive, rangers detecting things and whatever else Intrepid delivers to us are what make our individual characters unique. It will be exciting to decide between a bard for their support or a rogue for its additional loot possibilities as one example of the many we will face.
F)As a main tank, I would never leave a group unless it's an emergency. However, this does happen. Yes the raid or dungeon is over at that point unless you have someone else. The point with this one is to know people, have a presence in the community that will allow for more organized content.
G)I will hate having to master healing if I am planning on tanking. I also don't really want to dps. I want to interrupt, pull people, and get torn to shreds. When I want to meme around I will play my summoner/cleric.
H)I have faith that Intrepid will prevent classes becoming useless from patching. If they continue with the no addon aspect of the game, it will be very hard for people to straight dismiss classes because of patch notes. I plan on mastering all 8 of my sub-types to find out which best fits my style as a tank.
I)I disagree that this would be more fun than what is currently in play. It just adds more things for me to do which I wouldn't do. I have no need to improve other styles. There should be enough content in the game to keep us entertained that doesn't involve us going through the rounds of healing and dpsing and tanking all over again in the same content.
J)I usually play 1-3 characters but my alts are never my raiders. They are more for fun. My brother usually plays one of every class and tries to master them all. He has twinks, he has bank alts, he goes all out in this area. If he was stuck with one character that could play everything, he wouldn't even pick the game up. I do agree that people should focus on one character and not get so addicted that min/maxing several causes them to forget about real life priorities (as no game should allow for this) but forcing everyone to focus on one just doesn't work.
3) Your imagination on archetypes
A)I do like the idea of different weapon types giving different skills but it cannot change the entire kit. Maybe 2-3 skills.
B)I do not like the idea that a weapon will give me a class specific skill. That takes away from that class.
C) I think weapons should be unable to change during combat. I guess I am on the fence here really. Maybe a second weapon that allows for a dynamic style of interchanging abilities but this is a really tough one to implement imo.
D)Makes sense to have a timer limit or something to stop people from abusing the switch. Again with the dungeons, whatever takes away from the community aspect of communication and making friends is a no from me. If a player leaves, be forced to find a replacement or stop the run.
E)It's a good idea to feel progression on many different levels in an mmo. Leveling skills always feels good. It makes sense to level abilities by using abilities and this can be implemented in the game with relative ease.'
At the end of the day, it seems you have a solid idea but it just doesn't fit into the MMO scene that people are wanting right now. New World is proof of this. They allowed 3 different weapon swaps and then ended up removing pvp (dumb). But even then it wasn't smoothed out and the pvp wasn't really praised as something that would last for a long time. Hopefully you don't take my post as negative as I meant all of this as just my side of the discussion.
All that honest mental effort going into writing this out in total defiance of the design principles behind your choice of primary archetype being a meaningful and permanent decision towards the development of your character.
Bro calm down. He changed his mind after listening to the replies. Its ok to have an opinion on something, even if that opinion is wrong.
For point 3 and rest under it - understand and mostly agree Haha^^ No worry I understood it right way
PS: feedback from you and another guys helped me to modify the original post to something which could be maybe better fit the expectations. Nevertheless kept the history under spoilers.