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Same Subclass Progression

The whole archtype system looks to be very fun and promising so far with a lot of diversity. So far I've seen descriptions on how subclasses will augment your primary but none on how doubling up with your primary will be handled.

For example a Bard with a Bard subclass is a Minstrel but is it just basically a Bard, a Bard on steroids, or do they unlock different skills because it won't augment the class because it already has access to Bard skills? I would assume based on how they are approaching things that double classing would be equally viable and fun otherwise it wouldn't be mentioned so how does that kind of choice play out in class progression?

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    As I understand, the way the secondary archetype works is that it augments your primary. If you go full bard, you won't get more skills, but you'll get access to the four bard schools to augment your primary's skills.

    Bard/bard will be the best at what bard does.
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    AtiqaAtiqa Member
    edited August 2020
    Yeah so like GrandHarfang said, each sub-archetype offers four different augment schools that you can use to augment the skills of your main archetype.

    I don't know exactly how that will work out when going same sub-archetype as main one, but I guess it will be like an upgrade on what your skills already did, without changing the aspects of it.
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    DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Lets take Bard as an example:

    Bard ability - Heroic Leap - Leap at your target, dealing x amount of damage and inspire all surrounding alies in a 6m radius, increasing their damage by 10% for x sec.

    Bard/Bard - Leap at your target, dealing x amount of damage, inspiring all your allies in a 12m radius and demoralizing enemies in a 5m radius around your target. Inspired allies deal 10% more damage and demoralized enemies deal 10% less damage fpor x sec.
    a6XEiIf.gif
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    Damokles wrote: »
    Lets take Bard as an example:

    Bard ability - Heroic Leap - Leap at your target, dealing x amount of damage and inspire all surrounding alies in a 6m radius, increasing their damage by 10% for x sec.

    Bard/Bard - Leap at your target, dealing x amount of damage, inspiring all your allies in a 12m radius and demoralizing enemies in a 5m radius around your target. Inspired allies deal 10% more damage and demoralized enemies deal 10% less damage fpor x sec.

    Lmao. Heroic Leap for a bard? What you described would be a Fighter+bard skill.
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    KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @CaptnChuck I mean, if you think about it....the bards role is not to do those things but in this scenario he leaped into the fight specifically to inspire his team and demoralize the opponent. It might fit into the bards kit.
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    So does that mean the abilities just get buffed 1 way or are there no augment options? Like the example they always give is Fighter/Mage and the teleporting making charge a blink or do elemental effects. If you are a Mage/Mage it would seem odd to choose to augment your spells with teleport or other elements you already have so I'm just curious about if it's as flexible as having something else as a subclass or do you just get only the buffed skill with no options to alter it and that is maybe the trade off for it in being very specialized in that role but not as flexible or varied.
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    Vashramire wrote: »
    So does that mean the abilities just get buffed 1 way or are there no augment options? Like the example they always give is Fighter/Mage and the teleporting making charge a blink or do elemental effects. If you are a Mage/Mage it would seem odd to choose to augment your spells with teleport or other elements you already have so I'm just curious about if it's as flexible as having something else as a subclass or do you just get only the buffed skill with no options to alter it and that is maybe the trade off for it in being very specialized in that role but not as flexible or varied.

    We simply don't know yet. We have to wait for alpha 1.
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    DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 2020
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    Lets take Bard as an example:

    Bard ability - Heroic Leap - Leap at your target, dealing x amount of damage and inspire all surrounding alies in a 6m radius, increasing their damage by 10% for x sec.

    Bard/Bard - Leap at your target, dealing x amount of damage, inspiring all your allies in a 12m radius and demoralizing enemies in a 5m radius around your target. Inspired allies deal 10% more damage and demoralized enemies deal 10% less damage fpor x sec.

    Lmao. Heroic Leap for a bard? What you described would be a Fighter+bard skill.

    "Let's say the Bard is using a weapon, has a sword out and... does some gladiatorial looking performance attack and it looks so great. It inspires his friends around him to increase their multiplier on critical damage, and now they deal additional damage against targets for the next 10 seconds or 8 seconds. So, you're going to need to be active. You're going to worry about your position, the relation of the position of your party members to you in order to accentuate really what you offer the party. – Steven Sharif"


    You are thinking of the "Heroic Leap" ability from WoW most likely, but wows version is just a leap that sounds nice while doing nothing actually HEROIC.

    My version is a simple target specific gapcloser for bards.
    a6XEiIf.gif
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    CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited August 2020
    Damokles wrote: »
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    Lets take Bard as an example:

    Bard ability - Heroic Leap - Leap at your target, dealing x amount of damage and inspire all surrounding alies in a 6m radius, increasing their damage by 10% for x sec.

    Bard/Bard - Leap at your target, dealing x amount of damage, inspiring all your allies in a 12m radius and demoralizing enemies in a 5m radius around your target. Inspired allies deal 10% more damage and demoralized enemies deal 10% less damage fpor x sec.

    Lmao. Heroic Leap for a bard? What you described would be a Fighter+bard skill.

    "Let's say the Bard is using a weapon, has a sword out and... does some gladiatorial looking performance attack and it looks so great. It inspires his friends around him to increase their multiplier on critical damage, and now they deal additional damage against targets for the next 10 seconds or 8 seconds. So, you're going to need to be active. You're going to worry about your position, the relation of the position of your party members to you in order to accentuate really what you offer the party. – Steven Sharif"


    You are thinking of the "Heroic Leap" ability from WoW most likely, but wows version is just a leap that sounds nice while doing nothing actually HEROIC.

    My version is a simple target specific gapcloser for bards.

    I just find it difficult to imagine a bard doing a giant leap attack. But hey, what do I know.
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    DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Vashramire wrote: »
    So does that mean the abilities just get buffed 1 way or are there no augment options? Like the example they always give is Fighter/Mage and the teleporting making charge a blink or do elemental effects. If you are a Mage/Mage it would seem odd to choose to augment your spells with teleport or other elements you already have so I'm just curious about if it's as flexible as having something else as a subclass or do you just get only the buffed skill with no options to alter it and that is maybe the trade off for it in being very specialized in that role but not as flexible or varied.

    The /Bard augment also gets 3 augmentations like all other secondary class options, that was just a simple example.
    Bard/bard or Mage/Mage class augments would probably be something simple like added elemental damage (there are resistances for elements) or increased range, AoE or added dot effects etc.
    a6XEiIf.gif
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    DreohDreoh Member
    edited August 2020
    Vashramire wrote: »
    So does that mean the abilities just get buffed 1 way or are there no augment options? Like the example they always give is Fighter/Mage and the teleporting making charge a blink or do elemental effects. If you are a Mage/Mage it would seem odd to choose to augment your spells with teleport or other elements you already have so I'm just curious about if it's as flexible as having something else as a subclass or do you just get only the buffed skill with no options to alter it and that is maybe the trade off for it in being very specialized in that role but not as flexible or varied.

    With the information we have so far this is how it goes.

    A Mage/Unchosen will have an unaugmented base "Magic Missiles" spell.

    Now, all SECONDARY classes have 4 augment schools. The Mage SECONDARY class has Teleport, Fire, Ice, and Shock as seen here https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Mage.

    PRIMARY classes do NOT come with augments, only BASE ABILITIES, in the same way that SECONDARY classes come with augments but NOT base abilities.

    Those points together mean that like Mage/Cleric can have "Life or Death Magic Missiles", Mage/Mage can have "Teleport/Fire/Ice/Shock Magic Missiles". But a Mage/Cleric will not have access to "Teleport/Fire/Ice/Shock Magic Missiles"

    A Cleric/Mage similarly won't have access to the "Life/Death" augments, only a Cleric/Cleric will have the ability to augment their base abilities like, "Heal" with "Death" or "Life"
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    blackjack2525blackjack2525 Member
    edited August 2020
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Vashramire wrote: »
    So does that mean the abilities just get buffed 1 way or are there no augment options? Like the example they always give is Fighter/Mage and the teleporting making charge a blink or do elemental effects. If you are a Mage/Mage it would seem odd to choose to augment your spells with teleport or other elements you already have so I'm just curious about if it's as flexible as having something else as a subclass or do you just get only the buffed skill with no options to alter it and that is maybe the trade off for it in being very specialized in that role but not as flexible or varied.

    We simply don't know yet. We have to wait for alpha 1.

    Did you mean alpha 2? Alpha 1, as much as I heard, is limited to lvl 20, which is 5 levels lower than the point at which you get access to the second class augment.
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    DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 2020
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    Lets take Bard as an example:

    Bard ability - Heroic Leap - Leap at your target, dealing x amount of damage and inspire all surrounding alies in a 6m radius, increasing their damage by 10% for x sec.

    Bard/Bard - Leap at your target, dealing x amount of damage, inspiring all your allies in a 12m radius and demoralizing enemies in a 5m radius around your target. Inspired allies deal 10% more damage and demoralized enemies deal 10% less damage fpor x sec.

    Lmao. Heroic Leap for a bard? What you described would be a Fighter+bard skill.

    "Let's say the Bard is using a weapon, has a sword out and... does some gladiatorial looking performance attack and it looks so great. It inspires his friends around him to increase their multiplier on critical damage, and now they deal additional damage against targets for the next 10 seconds or 8 seconds. So, you're going to need to be active. You're going to worry about your position, the relation of the position of your party members to you in order to accentuate really what you offer the party. – Steven Sharif"


    You are thinking of the "Heroic Leap" ability from WoW most likely, but wows version is just a leap that sounds nice while doing nothing actually HEROIC.

    My version is a simple target specific gapcloser for bards.

    I just find it difficult to imagine a bard doing a giant leap attack. But hey, what do I know.

    I am probably too use to the AION chanter (A "Bard").
    It had a lot of gapclosers to keep on the target to apply debuffs and apply melee buffs to allies.

    And it was not supposed to be a "giant leap attack" but rather a 10m gap closer like the leap in APOC.
    a6XEiIf.gif
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    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Vashramire wrote: »
    So does that mean the abilities just get buffed 1 way or are there no augment options? Like the example they always give is Fighter/Mage and the teleporting making charge a blink or do elemental effects. If you are a Mage/Mage it would seem odd to choose to augment your spells with teleport or other elements you already have so I'm just curious about if it's as flexible as having something else as a subclass or do you just get only the buffed skill with no options to alter it and that is maybe the trade off for it in being very specialized in that role but not as flexible or varied.

    We simply don't know yet. We have to wait for alpha 1.

    Did you mean alpha 2? Alpha 1, as much as I heard, is limited to lvl 20, which is 5 levels lower than the point at which you get access to the second class augment.

    Yea but we get detailed info on the base abilities of classes in alpha 1. So yes, we'll see more about augments and stuff in alpha 2, but alpha 1 will be the base off of which alpha 2 will be built, so both are key.
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    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    Lets take Bard as an example:

    Bard ability - Heroic Leap - Leap at your target, dealing x amount of damage and inspire all surrounding alies in a 6m radius, increasing their damage by 10% for x sec.

    Bard/Bard - Leap at your target, dealing x amount of damage, inspiring all your allies in a 12m radius and demoralizing enemies in a 5m radius around your target. Inspired allies deal 10% more damage and demoralized enemies deal 10% less damage fpor x sec.

    Lmao. Heroic Leap for a bard? What you described would be a Fighter+bard skill.

    "Let's say the Bard is using a weapon, has a sword out and... does some gladiatorial looking performance attack and it looks so great. It inspires his friends around him to increase their multiplier on critical damage, and now they deal additional damage against targets for the next 10 seconds or 8 seconds. So, you're going to need to be active. You're going to worry about your position, the relation of the position of your party members to you in order to accentuate really what you offer the party. – Steven Sharif"


    You are thinking of the "Heroic Leap" ability from WoW most likely, but wows version is just a leap that sounds nice while doing nothing actually HEROIC.

    My version is a simple target specific gapcloser for bards.

    I just find it difficult to imagine a bard doing a giant leap attack. But hey, what do I know.

    Clearly you have not experienced the majesty of blade bards in d&d my friend, if they have melee bards in AoC and not relegate them to backliners I will be so happy lol
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    CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited August 2020
    KeybladerH wrote: »
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    Lets take Bard as an example:

    Bard ability - Heroic Leap - Leap at your target, dealing x amount of damage and inspire all surrounding alies in a 6m radius, increasing their damage by 10% for x sec.

    Bard/Bard - Leap at your target, dealing x amount of damage, inspiring all your allies in a 12m radius and demoralizing enemies in a 5m radius around your target. Inspired allies deal 10% more damage and demoralized enemies deal 10% less damage fpor x sec.

    Lmao. Heroic Leap for a bard? What you described would be a Fighter+bard skill.

    "Let's say the Bard is using a weapon, has a sword out and... does some gladiatorial looking performance attack and it looks so great. It inspires his friends around him to increase their multiplier on critical damage, and now they deal additional damage against targets for the next 10 seconds or 8 seconds. So, you're going to need to be active. You're going to worry about your position, the relation of the position of your party members to you in order to accentuate really what you offer the party. – Steven Sharif"


    You are thinking of the "Heroic Leap" ability from WoW most likely, but wows version is just a leap that sounds nice while doing nothing actually HEROIC.

    My version is a simple target specific gapcloser for bards.

    I just find it difficult to imagine a bard doing a giant leap attack. But hey, what do I know.

    Clearly you have not experienced the majesty of blade bards in d&d my friend, if they have melee bards in AoC and not relegate them to backliners I will be so happy lol

    Yea exactly. It would make sense for a fighter+bard to do that. But a pure bard+bard class? I find that hard to imagine.
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    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    KeybladerH wrote: »
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    Lets take Bard as an example:

    Bard ability - Heroic Leap - Leap at your target, dealing x amount of damage and inspire all surrounding alies in a 6m radius, increasing their damage by 10% for x sec.

    Bard/Bard - Leap at your target, dealing x amount of damage, inspiring all your allies in a 12m radius and demoralizing enemies in a 5m radius around your target. Inspired allies deal 10% more damage and demoralized enemies deal 10% less damage fpor x sec.

    Lmao. Heroic Leap for a bard? What you described would be a Fighter+bard skill.

    "Let's say the Bard is using a weapon, has a sword out and... does some gladiatorial looking performance attack and it looks so great. It inspires his friends around him to increase their multiplier on critical damage, and now they deal additional damage against targets for the next 10 seconds or 8 seconds. So, you're going to need to be active. You're going to worry about your position, the relation of the position of your party members to you in order to accentuate really what you offer the party. – Steven Sharif"


    You are thinking of the "Heroic Leap" ability from WoW most likely, but wows version is just a leap that sounds nice while doing nothing actually HEROIC.

    My version is a simple target specific gapcloser for bards.

    I just find it difficult to imagine a bard doing a giant leap attack. But hey, what do I know.

    Clearly you have not experienced the majesty of blade bards in d&d my friend, if they have melee bards in AoC and not relegate them to backliners I will be so happy lol

    Yea exactly. It would make sense for a fighter+bard to do that. But a pure bard+bard class? I find that hard to imagine.

    A blade bard in d&d IS a pure bard no multiclassing required, it’s a jack of all trades kind of thing multiply ways to support your allies and that’s what Steven has said with the bard
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    LeiloniLeiloni Member
    edited August 2020
    KeybladerH wrote: »
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    KeybladerH wrote: »
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    Lets take Bard as an example:

    Bard ability - Heroic Leap - Leap at your target, dealing x amount of damage and inspire all surrounding alies in a 6m radius, increasing their damage by 10% for x sec.

    Bard/Bard - Leap at your target, dealing x amount of damage, inspiring all your allies in a 12m radius and demoralizing enemies in a 5m radius around your target. Inspired allies deal 10% more damage and demoralized enemies deal 10% less damage fpor x sec.

    Lmao. Heroic Leap for a bard? What you described would be a Fighter+bard skill.

    "Let's say the Bard is using a weapon, has a sword out and... does some gladiatorial looking performance attack and it looks so great. It inspires his friends around him to increase their multiplier on critical damage, and now they deal additional damage against targets for the next 10 seconds or 8 seconds. So, you're going to need to be active. You're going to worry about your position, the relation of the position of your party members to you in order to accentuate really what you offer the party. – Steven Sharif"


    You are thinking of the "Heroic Leap" ability from WoW most likely, but wows version is just a leap that sounds nice while doing nothing actually HEROIC.

    My version is a simple target specific gapcloser for bards.

    I just find it difficult to imagine a bard doing a giant leap attack. But hey, what do I know.

    Clearly you have not experienced the majesty of blade bards in d&d my friend, if they have melee bards in AoC and not relegate them to backliners I will be so happy lol

    Yea exactly. It would make sense for a fighter+bard to do that. But a pure bard+bard class? I find that hard to imagine.

    A blade bard in d&d IS a pure bard no multiclassing required, it’s a jack of all trades kind of thing multiply ways to support your allies and that’s what Steven has said with the bard

    Never heard of Blade Bard but reading up on it, it sounds like exactly what Aion's Chanter was intended to be (except they used a Quarterstaff instead of a Sword, but from what I'm reading that would still be something they can do?). I think I understand now why they're still calling this class Bard.
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    We all know other games do different things with classes. Bard in FFXIV is a ranged bow user, and Thieves in GW2 can use staffs, etc so honestly anything is up in the air till launch since a class can be anything the devs want.
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    ZeekMysticZeekMystic Member
    edited August 2020
    Vashramire wrote: »
    We all know other games do different things with classes. Bard in FFXIV is a ranged bow user, and Thieves in GW2 can use staffs, etc so honestly anything is up in the air till launch since a class can be anything the devs want.

    As a person who plays ffxiv religiously and loves bards in d&d I was so disappointed with the bard in ffxiv, it felt nothing like a bard, but from what they have said about them in this game.

    We used bard as an example and I got seriously side tracked by that BUT to the original post a same archetype class will still get access to the same schools of augments as a dual archetype class. If the devs have built this into the game it’s up to them to make sure that you have the same choice regardless.
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    DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    KeybladerH wrote: »
    Vashramire wrote: »
    We all know other games do different things with classes. Bard in FFXIV is a ranged bow user, and Thieves in GW2 can use staffs, etc so honestly anything is up in the air till launch since a class can be anything the devs want.

    As a person who plays ffxiv religiously and loves bards in d&d I was so disappointed with the bard in ffxiv, it felt nothing like a bard, but from what they have said about them in this game.

    We used bard as an example and I got seriously side tracked by that BUT to the original post a same archetype class will still get access to the same schools of augments as a dual archetype class. If the devs have built this into the game it’s up to them to make sure that you have the same choice regardless.

    The chanter in aion was honestly the best bard class i have played in a game (except for my Bard/rogue dnd character)
    a6XEiIf.gif
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    KeybladerH wrote: »
    Vashramire wrote: »
    We all know other games do different things with classes. Bard in FFXIV is a ranged bow user, and Thieves in GW2 can use staffs, etc so honestly anything is up in the air till launch since a class can be anything the devs want.

    As a person who plays ffxiv religiously and loves bards in d&d I was so disappointed with the bard in ffxiv, it felt nothing like a bard, but from what they have said about them in this game.

    We used bard as an example and I got seriously side tracked by that BUT to the original post a same archetype class will still get access to the same schools of augments as a dual archetype class. If the devs have built this into the game it’s up to them to make sure that you have the same choice regardless.

    Same with Dancer. I appreciate the unique view on standard classes but they could have just called them something else and saved them for the traditional playstyle.
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    Problem with ffxiv is it is VERY rigid with the trinity so support classes don’t exist you’re either a healer or a tank and if you’re not one of those you are just a dd so the traditional play styles of the support oriented bard and dancer just didn’t exist so they had to go more dd heavy with it :/
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    Sadly Red Mage never had a chance to be a buffer/support either. I guess I can play 11 or tactics if I want the real deal.
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    Indeed, although I’m too into red mage to not enjoy it lol. Love me some swords and magic
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    I too enjoy it but aside from doublecast it doesn't have the feel of buffing and debuffing the world like they should.
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    Agreed, I thought for sure they would get the haste spell but alas the rigid trinity says no.

    That’s another thing that I’m hoping works well here being able to create that red mage feel, and have it actually feel like it’s working. As different secondary archetypes blend the line between the trinity a little bit, while doubling down makes you more effective at your role
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    Very true. With the more loosened trinity I think the game would have I'm interested to see how things can fit together, like can you OT as a Fighter/Tank or does Tank/Cleric become strong enough of a self healer that the actual healer can spec into more damage/buffing. I'm liking where things are going and with the skillshot/action vs tab targeting skill interactions I think Bard could be a good risk/reward buff/heal class that rewards good aim and positioning which I look forward to.
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    Vashramire wrote: »
    Very true. With the more loosened trinity I think the game would have I'm interested to see how things can fit together, like can you OT as a Fighter/Tank or does Tank/Cleric become strong enough of a self healer that the actual healer can spec into more damage/buffing. I'm liking where things are going and with the skillshot/action vs tab targeting skill interactions I think Bard could be a good risk/reward buff/heal class that rewards good aim and positioning which I look forward to.

    I think it's confirmed only Primary Tank is a Tank, and only Primary Cleric is a "good" healer
    There's some info saying Summoner might be the filler class like Druids in WoW but there's no confirmation in how well they'll be able to
    Bards are said to be able to heal but to a far lesser extant than Cleric
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