It's not just action combat vs tab-target; it's counter-able abilities vs no counterplay abilities.

It's not just action combat vs tab-target; it's counter-able abilities vs no counterplay abilities.
A lot of action combat fans act like all tab-target elements require 0 skill while action abilities require you to 300+m quick-scope while managing recoil and weapon sway. Meanwhile, a lot of tab-target fans think action-combat will just be a fast-paced button mash that will just cover the screen with effects.

Truth is aiming will really not be that hard considering your range is limited to tab-target range while also your projectiles will be super fast if not hit-scan and considering the amount of CC in-game landing shots will be most likely really easy unless the enemy is blinking or dodge-rolling. Meanwhile, effective tactical action-combat has been done in many Fighting games and RPGs though not many MMORPGs.

What really should determine a skill's effectiveness shouldn't be if it's tab or action, it should two factors:

1- How difficult and costly it is to execute the ability

2- How difficult and costly it is to counter the ability

If an ability requires you to aim, predict, react, combo, time correctly, etc while also costing you a lot in cast time, mana cost, cooldown time, stamina etc then that ability should be more effective.

Meanwhile, if an ability can be easily countered by moving out of the way, having plenty of time to interrupt, having plenty of time to invincibility frame (assuming i-frame costs you less in resources than the ability), easily blocked etc while also not costing much in mana, cooldown time etc to counter the ability shouldn't do much damage or hard CC.

For example, a one time cast with high CD, cast time, and mana cost with a slow projectile that be easily I-framed or interrupted should do more damage than a rapid-fire hit-scan ability. Now the caster can be skillful and predict the I-frame and cancel the cast at the last moment so he doesn't waste it. Meanwhile, a rapid-fire hitscan ability can easily be landed and pretty much can only be countered by enemy minions moving to block the shots or target going invincible for a while or out of range or sight.

A similar example can be applied to tab-targeting. An auto-locked channel ability that can't be interrupted for example and it's only counter is pretty much going of range or fully invincible shouldn't do much damage compared to an action combat ability that is high draw time that shoots one shot only with the accuracy of the shot being important.

Overall the nature of the ability shouldn't matter, both tab and action combat abilities can be effective just depending on how skillful and costly they are to execute and counter. An ability being action-based alone and require to aim shouldn't be the only factor; Aim is important but there a lot of more important factors especially if it doesn't take much skill to land aim shots and it's quite difficult to dodge aimed shots.

TL:DR Abilities effectiveness should depend on how difficult and costly they are to execute and counter not just if they are action-based or tab-based.

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CaptnChuck

iliya wrote: »

TL:DR Abilities effectiveness should depend on how difficult and costly they are to execute and counter not just if they are action-based or tab-based.

Doesn't that go without saying?

Maezriel

Was this not already assumed?

iliya

CaptnChuck wrote: »

iliya wrote: »

TL:DR Abilities effectiveness should depend on how difficult and costly they are to execute and counter not just if they are action-based or tab-based.

Doesn't that go without saying?

I mean right Intrepid's plan is now only that action-based abilities can apply hard CC. That sounds weird to me, I mean I rather face a tab ability with a high-cost 3-second cast with a slow projectile that can be I-framed rather than a hitscan instant hard CC. If APOC BR was any indicator landing shots in this game is hella easy even at long BR ranges, I with 250+ ping pretty much had 90% headshots on every shot with the hitscan shortbow, will be 99% at MMO ranges. So pretty sure any aimed ability will be really easy to hit.

If this was clear with Intrepid, It just sounds weird that only action-based abillites can hard CC. I mean it makes sense if they make all those action-based abilities high cost and difficult to use and easy to counter but then they could do the same with Tab-target ones.

Dreoh

iliya wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

iliya wrote: »

TL:DR Abilities effectiveness should depend on how difficult and costly they are to execute and counter not just if they are action-based or tab-based.

Doesn't that go without saying?

I mean right Intrepid's plan is now only that action-based abilities can apply hard CC. That sounds weird to me, I mean I rather face a tab ability with a high-cost 3-second cast with a slow projectile that can be I-framed rather than a hitscan instant hard CC. If APOC BR was any indicator landing shots in this game is hella easy even at long BR ranges, I with 250+ ping pretty much had 90% headshots on every shot with the hitscan shortbow, will be 99% at MMO ranges. So pretty sure any aimed ability will be really easy to hit.

If this was clear with Intrepid, It just sounds weird that only action-based abillites can hard CC. I mean it makes sense if they make all those action-based abilities high cost and difficult to use and easy to counter but then they could do the same with Tab-target ones.

This is why I've been trying to bring to attention in all the combat threads that there's some inherent flaws (with the information we have) in the direction they're taking the combat.

They want to appeal to both types of players, however they're creating two separate systems to do so and calling it a hybrid system. Splitting functionality is directly contrary to the concept of hybrid. They want to balance action-combat skills differently than tab-target skills, but that's going to create obvious metas and obvious balance issues. To add on top of that, apparently you can CHOOSE which form each spell you have takes. Your fireball spell can be either tab-target OR projectile-based. This means that you're going to have to choose between a better and a worse version, because we all know how end-game metas work. That's not even getting into the problem with having to switch camera mode mid-combat to use abilities of either type.

Then you have actual hybrid combat games like ESO or GW2 where each ability is inherently BOTH tab-target AND action-combat. The only thing that changes is how you aim them. (For anyone confused, ESO has tab-targeting which comes in the form of essentially aim-assist, and the ability to hit your melee target even if there's another target between you and it)

CaptnChuck

@iliya
@Dreoh

Lets just be patient. I've made posts about combat too, but we need more data and we'll get that with Alpha 1, which is just around the corner. Once it rolls out, we can spam the heck out of combat threads.

Dreoh

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@iliya
@Dreoh

Lets just be patient. I've made posts about combat too, but we need more data and we'll get that with Alpha 1, which is just around the corner. Once it rolls out, we can spam the heck out of combat threads.

Very true, which is why I've been careful to add in all my comments that my opinion is based on current knowledge lol

I'm just being very vocal about it even now because I know it's harder to commit to change and even harder to enact change after systems have already been built around a combat system, so it's better to get the opinions out there early so that the devs can see them and consider them before combat is complete.

It's also hard to tell if the devs actually read these threads too which is why you see so many repeated posts by the same people

CaptnChuck

Dreoh wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@iliya
@Dreoh

Lets just be patient. I've made posts about combat too, but we need more data and we'll get that with Alpha 1, which is just around the corner. Once it rolls out, we can spam the heck out of combat threads.

I'm just being very vocal about it even now because I know it's harder to commit to change and even harder to enact change after systems have already been built around a combat system, so it's better to get the opinions out there early so that the devs can see them and consider them before combat is complete.

It's also hard to tell if the devs actually read these threads too which is why you see so many repeated posts by the same people

Steven clearly mentioned that alpha 1 will have the barebones version of the hybrid combat system in AoC, and that through the feedback and data that they collect from the players and from the game, they will improve it and release a more finalized version in alpha 2, which will be the persistent alpha.

Also yes, Steven does read the threads on the forums and he occasionally replies to a few of them.

I noticed this with the multiboxing poll. I had made a very detailed post regarding multiboxing and why it wouldn't be as much of an issue in AoC. One of the main things that I mentioned in that post was key-broadcasting software. And they specifically mentioned it in the very first option of the poll. So yes, I do feel like they read some of the posts on the forums.

FuryBladeborne

iliya wrote: »

Truth is aiming will really not be that hard considering your range is limited to tab-target range while also your projectiles will be super fast if not hit-scan and considering the amount of CC in-game landing shots will be most likely really easy unless the enemy is blinking or dodge-rolling.

"considering the amount of CC in-game landing shots will be most likely really easy..." The quantity of CC skills has nothing to do with whether it is easy to hit with them.

iliya wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

iliya wrote: »

...rather than a hitscan instant hard CC. If APOC BR was any indicator landing shots in this game is hella easy even at long BR ranges, I with 250+ ping pretty much had 90% headshots on every shot with the hitscan shortbow, will be 99% at MMO ranges. So pretty sure any aimed ability will be really easy to hit.

Are you only counting enemies that stand still for your entire shot, including the delay for ping?

Also, I did play the BR until 50 and it never looked like the bows were hitscan. With the wide variety of skills required to give all 8 archetypes about 30 abilities (just those on the action bar, there could be more), hitscan will probably exist but you shouldn't assume that it will be the dominant way hits are determined.

iliya wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

iliya wrote: »

If this was clear with Intrepid, It just sounds weird that only action-based abillites can hard CC. I mean it makes sense if they make all those action-based abilities high cost and difficult to use and easy to counter but then they could do the same with Tab-target ones.

If a player can use tab target to auto hit a CC, then action combat players will be able to get free hits as a result. Instead, hard CC requires action combat to earn the hit, then other players can take their free hits afterward.

Another way to look at it is, tab targeted hard CC takes away the challenge of subsequent attacks aiming at the target using action combat. Putting the hard CC on action combat abilities retains the accuracy challenge.

Lfmr

Hey, I just wanted to speak on this, I used to be a diamond ranked player in League of Legends, and sometimes targeted abilities are just stronger then skillshots and that is fine, in some cases, specifically when it comes down to CC, targeted 100% gauranteed CC is always going to be better then aimed CC that has a chance to miss, it makes characters with this 100% stun chance really effective, and it synergizes well with people using action combat since a stun pretty much guarantees skill shots to hit on the stationary target.

I think that this synergy is really healthy for the game combat, and having both targeted and action combat abilities is going to be meta, and even if you choose only one or the other, they both still synergise well with other players, very good since the game is going to be balanced around groups of 8.

I still think that with action combat, since it is aimed, there is a risk / reward placed into that system on purpose, whereas targeted abilities are going to be more reliable but have less of a payoff, still, there are just some things that are more valuable to players to be reliable, like CC or important buffs / debuffs.

Dreoh

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Also yes, Steven does read the threads on the forums and he occasionally replies to a few of them.

I noticed this with the multiboxing poll. I had made a very detailed post regarding multiboxing and why it wouldn't be as much of an issue in AoC. One of the main things that I mentioned in that post was key-broadcasting software. And they specifically mentioned it in the very first option of the poll. So yes, I do feel like they read some of the posts on the forums.

You're right, but that doesn't mean he reads EVERY thread, or even most of them. I'm actually more than positive he probably reads a very few amount of threads, simply because there's so many threads and comments constantly and he only has so much time to peruse forums and the subreddit. Unlike a few of the community who can sit here all day reading through every thread, the devs at Intrepid have work to do and just simply can't make time to read everything.

Lfmr wrote: »

Hey, I just wanted to speak on this, I used to be a diamond ranked player in League of Legends, and sometimes targeted abilities are just stronger then skillshots and that is fine, in some cases, specifically when it comes down to CC, targeted 100% gauranteed CC is always going to be better then aimed CC that has a chance to miss, it makes characters with this 100% stun chance really effective, and it synergizes well with people using action combat since a stun pretty much guarantees skill shots to hit on the stationary target.

I think that this synergy is really healthy for the game combat, and having both targeted and action combat abilities is going to be meta, and even if you choose only one or the other, they both still synergise well with other players, very good since the game is going to be balanced around groups of 8.

I still think that with action combat, since it is aimed, there is a risk / reward placed into that system on purpose, whereas targeted abilities are going to be more reliable but have less of a payoff, still, there are just some things that are more valuable to players to be reliable, like CC or important buffs / debuffs.

Everything you say here is correct, but if you widen the discussion to include things like, "Should we have stuns?" or how is toggling between tab-target cam and action cam going to play out, it becomes a lot more complicated.

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