Combat feedback

I want to preface by saying my feedback is based on footage and not actual hands on experience, still, I wanted to share my thoughts early

What throws me off in the current iteration of hybrid combat as shown in the recent development update is the quick phase and weight of the attacks or rather the lack of it

Weight

The swings of the sword seem to travel way too fast and disproportionate to how I imagine a metal sword this size would swing like

This looks more like how a wooden wand would move or a long light stick

It seems to be effecting way further than its actual physical range in the 3d environment

Also, the fx being spread far from the edge of the sword extenuate its weightlessness even more

It seem like the fx was designed in a way that the camera was zoomed way out and the resolution of the "brush" was too broad

Phase

The sweet spot is fast enough but comprehensive to allow a reasonable reaction time for counter play
I feel like the current phase is pretty spammy too fast and overwhelming for a basic attack

I imagine slowing the phase and the swing animation together with reducing the spread of the fx and bringing it closer to the sword would add the feeling of weight its missing and do the trick for me

Generally speaking there seems to be a weak correlation to physics in the general approach to combat, it's the fundamental base to make a world believable especially one of fantasy and magic

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Comments

Hurf Derfman

They need to put abilities on four more base archetypes.
Animations come later.

I mean, you aren't wrong.

Would be pretty cool to see different races have different combat animations for the primary attack combo.

Yoanna

It is a difficult balance to strike to have combat that suits every person's gusto. ShadonSol posted in his message "3 things from the New World Preview that I want to see in Ashes" about how good and impactful the combat in New World looks and feels, for me, it is just slow. I do not like it that much. I prefer a faster style, that makes it less realistic, true, but more fun to play.
So it will be impossible to have a combat system that caters to everybody's needs. I for my part liked the speed of the animations and frankly I do not care if the sword is balanced right. There are 183925948 other things I like to see perfected before the weapons physics, even less if the combat animations stay as fast as they are now.

I would extend on the combat feedback in so far as to ask, if there will be some form of animation cancelling. In the latest dev videos it did not seem like it.

Potato Basket

Archi McQueen wrote: »

It is a difficult balance to strike to have combat that suits every person's gusto. ShadonSol posted in his message "3 things from the New World Preview that I want to see in Ashes" about how good and impactful the combat in New World looks and feels, for me, it is just slow. I do not like it that much. I prefer a faster style, that makes it less realistic, true, but more fun to play.

Yes, I agree about fun over realistic combat

I guess it's something we'll have to play first to judge properly

Can't wait for alpha 1

Kneczhevo

Realism versus gameplay is a really old topic, and most games give into the gameplay mechanic. Real life is boring.

Ravudha

This makes me think about New World - the combat animations, swinging a massive hammer, really embody that aspect of weight, but I've seen players say combat is slow and sluggish (even though the animations are technically smooth).

Maybe MMO players are just used to a certain pace of combat...not sure.

For me, I don't need to feel the weight of the sword itself, just the weight of its impact. The sound effect, enemy animation, screen shake etc - stuff to inject weight in a different way.

Potato Basket

Ravudha wrote: »

For me, I don't need to feel the weight of the sword itself, just the weight of its impact. The sound effect, enemy animation, screen shake etc - stuff to inject weight in a different way.

Looking at BDO, it's a high phase, not realistic, lots of fx but still plays well and very fun

I think a good combat is one with a rhythm that gets the player to tune in, easily pick up and start playing his own tune

Design has to approach combat as a musical instrument and everything will start to fall into place

Maybe all they need is Bear McCreary to step in

CaptnChuck

Yea I definitely think that the attacks could use a little bit more weight, especially when you consider the fact that Steven was wearing heavy armor.

Anonymous332

Weight can be fixed with audio, animations and effects. Problem is it can interfer with how fluid and responsive combat feels, but there are ways to work around it.

Take animationlocking in NW for example; no issues with weight, but the combat is clunky and unresponsive because devs paid too much attention to weight taking feedback from people who dont really know what they are talking about.

Potato Basket

Izilion wrote: »

Weight can be fixed with audio, animations and effects. Problem is it can interfer with how fluid and responsive combat feels, but there are ways to work around it.

Take animationlocking in NW for example; no issues with weight, but the combat is clunky and unresponsive because devs paid too much attention to weight taking feedback from people who dont really know what they are talking about.

Wait so how was the combat in NW different before the feedback?

I know they say it's inspired by dark souls so I don't see it being very different regardless the feedback of the players

BobzUrUncle

Please note that this is a very early iteration on character animation. This will get better over time. Or, if not, we will get used to it...

Potato Basket

BobzUrUncle wrote: »

Please note that this is a very early iteration on character animation. This will get better over time. Or, if not, we will get used to it...

Pff if you're willing that easily to just get used to mediocre combat at best you're probably having a blast playing the current shit tier mmos

Rhaelah

I had the same concern, except I went farther and said that a sword being swung wont hit more than at most 2 mobs effectively. Being able to take on that many mobs doesnt make the world feel dangerous and therefor not fun. Also, its completely unfair to those who are going to play tab-target. I can only assume that while I'm attacking one mob tab targetted, someone else is hack n slashing away at 4-5 mobs. If that idea is true, thats highly unbalanced.

Dreoh

Rhaelah wrote: »

I had the same concern, except I went farther and said that a sword being swung wont hit more than at most 2 mobs effectively. Being able to take on that many mobs doesnt make the world feel dangerous and therefor not fun. Also, its completely unfair to those who are going to play tab-target. I can only assume that while I'm attacking one mob tab targetted, someone else is hack n slashing away at 4-5 mobs. If that idea is true, thats highly unbalanced.

Your position stands on more than a few assumptions.

First, that being able to attack many mobs doesn't feel dangerous. Well that combat video was a showcase of the abilities, not actual balanced combat. Fighting many enemies your level quite possibly could be a very very bad idea. Games like GW2 have the same melee cone system, and yes, you can kill multiple things, but if you fight more than 1 or 2 things your level you will be in trouble. In group content like dungeons and stuff, this issue isn't a big deal at all because there's just so much going on anyways.

Second, you assume tab-target people can't do the same. There is only 1 type of melee attack, both tab-target and action use it. I think you're assuming that tab-target players will only be able to hit their primary target, which I have no idea why you came to that conclusion. Maybe you meant casting single-target spells? Well in every game single-target abilities are always more powerful than any multi-hit abilities. If you're saying action players have the option of running around meleeing stuff with ease, well WoW melee classes do the same thing, have you seen rogues/warriors dance around mobs and enemy players as they auto-attack/melee-skill attack? And WoW is an entirely tab-target game. Well less so nowadays, but you get my point, I hope.

Third, I'll go back to your first sentence where you talk about realism. This is a game, not real life, you're not complaining that a dwarf is launching fire and beams from his hands out of thin air, or that his grappling hook ability can pull an enemy like 30 feet away directly to him, ignoring all realistic physics.

The easiest way to ease your concerns is to just tell you to play games that utilize this kind of combat, like GW2 (which the core game is f2p so you could easily go test it out right now if you were so inclined) which has aoe-melee for every melee attack yet all classes are balanced. The game even utilizes mainly tab-target combat with optional action combat and you don't see anyone with the complaints you have.

Rhaelah

@Dreoh Im glad you responded. You're correct that I am making a lot of assumptions. I find it better to make pessimistic assumptions about games nowadays considering that usually im correct because most are trash nowadays.

Dreoh wrote: »

First, that being able to attack many mobs doesn't feel dangerous. Well that combat video was a showcase of the abilities, not actual balanced combat. Fighting many enemies your level quite possibly could be a very very bad idea. Games like GW2 have the same melee cone system, and yes, you can kill multiple things, but if you fight more than 1 or 2 things your level you will be in trouble. In group content like dungeons and stuff, this issue isn't a big deal at all because there's just so much going on anyways.

I feel youre making the opposite assumption in your first sentence, that being able to attack many mobs does feel dangerous. I just want to spread ideas that try and help make the game feel more dangerous because I guess I feel that fighting one mob at a time does that. I did play GW2 for a while, so I know what youre saying about the combat. However, GW2 still didnt feel that dangerous because death had no consequence. It made it so that fighting more than one mob wasnt scary at all. As for group content, there shouldnt be so much going on that I cant tell what the heck is happening on my screen.

Dreoh wrote: »

Second, you assume tab-target people can't do the same. There is only 1 type of melee attack, both tab-target and action use it. I think you're assuming that tab-target players will only be able to hit their primary target, which I have no idea why you came to that conclusion. Maybe you meant casting single-target spells? Well in every game single-target abilities are always more powerful than any multi-hit abilities. If you're saying action players have the option of running around meleeing stuff with ease, well WoW melee classes do the same thing, have you seen rogues/warriors dance around mobs and enemy players as they auto-attack/melee-skill attack? And WoW is an entirely tab-target game. Well less so nowadays, but you get my point, I hope.

I do assume that, because that's kinda how tab-targetting works in every other game. I didnt know that both would use the same attack. Idk if I can agree on the single vs multi target power level thing.

Dreoh wrote: »

Third, I'll go back to your first sentence where you talk about realism. This is a game, not real life, you're not complaining that a dwarf is launching fire and beams from his hands out of thin air, or that his grappling hook ability can pull an enemy like 30 feet away directly to him, ignoring all realistic physics.

This is a bad argument imo, the idea, at least I think, is that the game/world should be treated as real, and should therefor be subject to that. Obviously, not to say that the game is Earth and there is no magic. I'm not arguing against fire beams or grappling hooks, I am arguing about combat perhaps feeling too powerful to the extreme where I can take on the world.

Dreoh

I completely support your pessimistic notion. Thinking critically about things leads to improvement, whereas blind fanaticism leads to stale ideas.

Rhaelah wrote: »

I feel youre making the opposite assumption in your first sentence

Well that was me stating your point of view in that first sentence so that I could follow up with the counterpoint. I may be misinterpreting here though, and if that's the case I'll try to re-summarize my opinion. I think that fighting many mobs should feel dangerous, but I don't like the idea of my attacks being limited to my selected target, that feels artificial to me. even if it was only a 2 people cleave that'd be a thousand times better in my mind than the stale single-target of WoW and other games.

I do completely agree that death in GW2 falls flat in the dangerous territory. They even removed the repair costs at one point. AoC won't really have that issue as far as I'm aware since there will be experience debt and repair costs.

Rhaelah wrote: »

I do assume that, because that's kinda how tab-targetting works in every other game. I didnt know that both would use the same attack. Idk if I can agree on the single vs multi target power level thing.

Yea, even in the earliest gameplay footage the melee attacks aren't "auto-attack" and require manual input for swinging, though I don't know if they had cleave at that point.

I do admit the single-target vs. multi-target power level thing is a bit iffy to me too. Because how do you balance a melee-class with a ranged class that uses single target abilities in a 1v1 scenario? As devil's advocate here, AoC is going to be balanced around team fights, not 1v1's.
But from my and I guess your side of the argument here, I do think that maybe melee attacks should do more damage if you're hitting a single target maybe? And the damage is reduced to a set minimum for cleave or something. Obviously not a complete thought, just a spitball of how to balance it.

Rhaelah wrote: »

This is a bad argument imo, the idea, at least I think, is that the game/world should be treated as real, and should therefor be subject to that. Obviously, not to say that the game is Earth and there is no magic. I'm not arguing against fire beams or grappling hooks, I am arguing about combat perhaps feeling too powerful to the extreme where I can take on the world.

I respect your opinion on this. This is a high point of contention in the gaming community, realism vs. gameplay. Both sides have good arguments and the only real solution is to find that perfect balance between the two, and honestly that point of balance is usually the best outcome anyways.

Rhaelah

@Dreoh Im constantly being surprised at the level of thoughtfulness, intelligence, and calmness in 99% of the communities response to many of my comments. Here I was thinking that all was lost in the MMO and gaming community ever since around 2010. This community is a huge breath of fresh air. The amount of like-mindedness going around is unbelievable. It's like the gaming community's last hope. My hopes are rekindled.

Dreoh

@Rhaelah Haha, definitely. Though that's not to say there's no negativity and rashness, I've definitely had to argue with people who had innate illogical biases but most people here definitely understand how to think critically and understand how game development works.

I personally try to always respond with logic and fairness and as well constructed of an argument as possible since it's hard for people to stay angry and illogical when presented with calm logical replies, although sometimes I too get a little heated or biased (pretty sure I might be starting to get a reputation as "the GW2 guy" or something too) xD

Azeem

I agree you shouldn't be able to take on more than 2 mobs your level but in the video steven's character was lvl 10 and the mobs he was fighting were lvl 1. Still not a fan of the sword having that much aoe but in terms of the level they were decently lower.

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