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Player Reputation, Fighting against toxicity!

PeggysuegotParriedPeggysuegotParried Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
Hello all, In many games not just MMO's we have seen a large increase over the years of internet rambo's and just plain trolls. These people can seriously take the fun out of the game for me and I'm sure some other people. Archeage is a great example of how toxic players can be, and I'm sure Steven had that game in mind when he wanted to kill some of his own faction.

So what can we do to help slow it down in the nodes we will call our home?

I would like to have a player reputation system established by our players, now this will have to be limited to 1 player per account to prevent alt spamming, and I would suggest maybe letting a player use it only once a week so they're not tempted to boost buddies, and actually save it for a reason to use it.

Things that could earn reputation would be being helpful and answering questions in chat for people, players could have a small button next to the chat to give rep and or lose rep.

Helping someone survive if you see them about to die.

Organizing a group or raid.

any positive action that stands out for the best interest of you Node.

Now Bad Rep would work the opposite obviously, players doing the exact opposite of this.

Being a asshat in chat, purposely trolling people, and many other reason I'm sure these people will find to grief and annoy players.

Now I would suggest a title system for both good and bad, and I know some people would relish the bad titles.

However I would like to add a twist. For players that continue to be a plague on our nodes, as a Merchant myself and running a player stall. I would like the following options on my merchant:

*Give a discount to high rep players
*Charge extra for bad rep players
*Have the right to refuse service to a bad rep player by entering his name on a block list, and when he tries to buy have a message for him saying he is being refused service.


Now some people will say money is money, and they have every right to feel that way, for me personally I would rather stick to my principles then help enable these people. Even if just a handful of merchants did it, I'm sure players would not only appreciate the discounts but would be dismayed if a item they really wanted was for sale and they could not get it due to being a weenie!

Please let me know any other suggestions you might have to improve on a system like this if you like this idea thanks for reading.

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Comments

  • dawntrackerdawntracker Member
    edited August 2020
    There is an "active" forum post on this where the devs asked for input. Not sure if you've seen it so I just wanted to share this with you:
    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/42812/dev-discussion-7-toxicity/p1

    edit: Also for my two cents: I think it's a really interesting topic that I'm not even sure what i want from the game when it comes to player toxicity.

    Myself, I always try to help people and try to be friendly as much as possible. On the other hand, trolls and people who like to get on peoples nerves intentionally are also part of the community.

    Your suggested Rep system is also used in at least 1 other game I know and played. only there you got rewards like cosmetics.
    In the end. People pretty much just harvested those points, got all the rewards and got back to their normal ways.
  • OrcLuckOrcLuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    This problem swings both ways and isn't a simple problem.

    You get too many people blowing the whistle on you, and you feel like you're being oppressed by tattle tails when ever something even slightly curves from the aggregate viewpoint.

    That said, there is also a very nasty case of where systems have been abused. Streamers being banned automatically because trolls in mass, mass report them.

    This is going to be a problem that will probably burn money.
  • PeggysuegotParriedPeggysuegotParried Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    even simply giving a player the ability to refuse service or mark up prices or give discounts would be enough for me. That way it would be hard to be abused.
  • Make this based on a player's choice and it will be abused. There is no way around that.

    There is just two way to implement a system like this properly and yours most certainly isn't one that works. That has been proven by years and years of games with similar games where player report players which is then evaluated by an automated system.

    The two way possible are:
    1. Don't base it on an automatic system at all. The server capacity is limited. If someone is a bad griefer/ganker/troll, then people who care will know them sooner or later. If they want to refuse to sell to somebody, then they can do that at any time. Let Intrepid provide the possibility to blacklist certain people from your trades and shop to support this.
    2. Base it on a fully automated system without player input. Track the Node's caravans a player robs, track how many of the Node Citizen he has killed etc. Based on that people can be able to adjust prices for their services or even blacklist them from trading based on these metrics.
  • IzilIzil Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Just dont read the chat just disable the chat close your eyes omegalul
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  • PeggysuegotParriedPeggysuegotParried Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Warth wrote: »
    Make this based on a player's choice and it will be abused. There is no way around that.

    There is just two way to implement a system like this properly and yours most certainly isn't one that works. That has been proven by years and years of games with similar games where player report players which is then evaluated by an automated system.

    The two way possible are:
    1. Don't base it on an automatic system at all. The server capacity is limited. If someone is a bad griefer/ganker/troll, then people who care will know them sooner or later. If they want to refuse to sell to somebody, then they can do that at any time. Let Intrepid provide the possibility to blacklist certain people from your trades and shop to support this.
    2. Base it on a fully automated system without player input. Track the Node's caravans a player robs, track how many of the Node Citizen he has killed etc. Based on that people can be able to adjust prices for their services or even blacklist them from trading based on these metrics.

    I don't see how a player having the ability to either charge more or blacklist someone would be abused. There are plenty of stalls they can go to, just not mine.
  • Sandman wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    Make this based on a player's choice and it will be abused. There is no way around that.

    There is just two way to implement a system like this properly and yours most certainly isn't one that works. That has been proven by years and years of games with similar games where player report players which is then evaluated by an automated system.

    The two way possible are:
    1. Don't base it on an automatic system at all. The server capacity is limited. If someone is a bad griefer/ganker/troll, then people who care will know them sooner or later. If they want to refuse to sell to somebody, then they can do that at any time. Let Intrepid provide the possibility to blacklist certain people from your trades and shop to support this.
    2. Base it on a fully automated system without player input. Track the Node's caravans a player robs, track how many of the Node Citizen he has killed etc. Based on that people can be able to adjust prices for their services or even blacklist them from trading based on these metrics.

    I don't see how a player having the ability to either charge more or blacklist someone would be abused. There are plenty of stalls they can go to, just not mine.

    TL/DR

    You should re-read what i wrote. Blacklist and A**hole Tax for Stalls is good.

    Player generated Reputation Systems are bad.
  • There are so many interdependent systems that will require multiple people to work together. Player agency and word of mouth will be quite powerful.

    This game will have PVP, and what's toxic to one person may not be toxic to another. Just because you got your reality check bounced doesn't mean it was toxic.

    In a civilised society there is acceptable parameters of behavior without the need for thought police.

    As for exploits and design flaws there will be GMs.
  • Beck AltarrBeck Altarr Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 2020
    This is very subjective if you are basing it on chat.

    What you find offensive might just be normal for that person. I have a homeless shelter near where I live. Their day to day language and attitudes I do no find personally agreeable. For them that's just how they talk to each other.

    Some people naturally sound like they are condescending and talking down to others, some people are witty and sarcastic or have a dry sense of humor. We can't really judge them on their day to day normal personality.

    Basing any system off of chat is an instant fail. It is their actions that I agree could be a better standard for the type of system you are talking about and it has a bit of a role play element to it as well.

    If a player is part of a PvP guild who's primary objective is farming caravans then they would be brigands and thieves and the local towns and shops shouldn't service them, if they know who they are. That makes sense from a story perspective and obviously if a town has a big issue with that kind of stuff happening how many players are going to hang around and do business there?

    So I do like the idea but maybe make it a server system where if you attack caravans consistently in a node they would just pay a higher tax in that node.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    You seem to be conflating characters with players.
  • LfmrLfmr Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    There is a good way to handle this, and then a terrible way to handle this system, I have seen it go waaaay too far when players handle these sorts of 'reputation' systems, I have seen a plug-in that blacklists players, it would block all messages, not allow them to group together, etc. It would also blacklist players that played with blacklisted players unless they downloaded the plug-in.

    Like I said, there's a good way to handle this, and a terrible way, so hopefully we can find a good and non oppressive balance, the best way is when the community comes together and posts evidence on server forums of unsavory behavior, like scamming and luring, then allowing other players to make that informed decision for themselves of whether to associate with them or not.
  • What stops guilds from bad-reviewing competition into the ground?
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  • You essentialy want to punish people for pvping? You get corrupted as punishment, penalizing people for enjoying an aspect of the game like attacking caravans is ridiculous.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dygz wrote: »
    You seem to be conflating characters with players.

    There is no difference.

    Anyone that thinks there is a difference is just using it as an excuse to act out.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Warth wrote: »
    Blacklist and A**hole Tax for Stalls is good.
    Basically this.

    Give players the ability to refuse service to anyone they want - or even any guild or people from any node they want. This is fine.

    Making it a player reputation thing though, that will end badly.

    You'll have those trolls you are trying to "punish" use their guild to give them a stellar reputation, regardless of what other people think. Then they can be a dick towards you, and still buy your items at your high reputation price.

    A simple blacklist (that also blocks all characters on the account) is all that is needed imo - but I do like that suggestion.
  • Isn't there a mega thread in this topic already?
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder
    I don't think a system like the OP suggests is really necessary, as the players will do this naturally on their own. Remember that in Ashes, fast travel is limited so you will likely get to know most of the other players in your node and maybe the neighbouring nodes too. When everyone knows everyone else it's a lot harder to remain anonymous. If a player is toxic or tries to rip off or scam other players, they will very quickly find that they will get no customers and go out of business.

    It won't be like in WoW where you do most of your gameplay cross-server and can hide among the masses. In Ashes, reputation WILL matter.
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  • PeggysuegotParriedPeggysuegotParried Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Azeem wrote: »
    You essentialy want to punish people for pvping? You get corrupted as punishment, penalizing people for enjoying an aspect of the game like attacking caravans is ridiculous.

    Where did I ever say that? I love PvP and this is in no way directed at reputation for PvP. If I die to another player, I might not like it, but I have respect for that player not saying he is a troll. Unless there was a mechanic where he could kill uou, get u up, kill u again and so on and there isn't.

    This is directed towards people who are not city friendly, who go out of their way to find mechanics in the game to her people) IE. New World blocking doors and stairs. Archeage blocking Ladders. Everygame has something and people will find them.

    Being a consistent asshat in general and that is subjective. Title systems might be more difficult, but a right as a player with my own STALL would at least empower me to give kind people, and buttheads their own prices. Which would in no way affect the general Populus.
  • Player-driven reputations that affect gameplay are very bad, it’ll get used by the trolls and griefing d-bags you wanna punish with it.

    Personal and trade blacklists are very good ideas though. If someone peeves me then I don’t want to offer anything to them, they can buy somewhere else. There’s no auto-grouping so it’ll be up to you if you don’t wanna group with them, but assuming we get the usual block features, you won’t have to read their chat.
  • MedrashMedrash Member
    edited August 2020
    @Sandman

    Saying that a good game with a good balance doesn't have toxicity problems.. it can always happen .. but a good game will never let the toxic player ruin your game.

    Anyway your solution isn't a bad idea for me :smile: , a reputation system is awesome ... but i think that it can cause some problems. if a certain player have a way to play that makes other people mad that's fine ... it's part f the game, and it build factions. So this can led a good player to be voted negatively by other players .. or just becouse they are enemies..
    I don't get how the merchant works .. do you intend the npc? Or you? I think that a major of a node can ban someone from the city ... with a report to the autority or the "police" , and then give your name to other nodes or players ... but then a player can also hide himself and his face, making harder or impossible to be detected my the guards and merchants...
    of course if a player is toxic nobody (players) will give stuff or help him , there is no need for a reputation system.
  • BaSkA13BaSkA13 Member
    edited August 2020
    A block feature which will make that person's nameplate a different color that completely removes that guy from my chat/chat bubbles and help me boycott him as much as I possibly can is more than enough.

    Also, whatever Ashes ToS regarding "toxicity" are, if people break them I hope I'll be able to report them and hopefully get them IP/HWID chat banned for weeks if not more - which can't be based on poor AI, or else false positives/report abusing will be a problem.
  • PeggysuegotParriedPeggysuegotParried Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Medrash wrote: »
    @Sandman

    Saying that a good game with a good balance doesn't have toxicity problems.. it can always happen .. but a good game will never let the toxic player ruin your game.

    Anyway your solution isn't a bad idea for me :smile: , a reputation system is awesome ... but i think that it can cause some problems. if a certain player have a way to play that makes other people mad that's fine ... it's part f the game, and it build factions. So this can led a good player to be voted negatively by other players .. or just becouse they are enemies..
    I don't get how the merchant works .. do you intend the npc? Or you? I think that a major of a node can ban someone from the city ... with a report to the autority or the "police" , and then give your name to other nodes or players ... but then a player can also hide himself and his face, making harder or impossible to be detected my the guards and merchants...
    of course if a player is toxic nobody (players) will give stuff or help him , there is no need for a reputation system.


    I mean me personally, if I'm not mistaken we will be allowed to run player stalls to sell our wares, that is where I would grant a discount to valuable society members or charge more to those less helpful, or outright deny them.
  • BaSkA13 wrote: »
    A block feature which will make that person's nameplate a different color that completely removes that guy from my chat/chat bubbles and help me boycott him as much as I possibly can is more than enough.

    Also, whatever Ashes ToS regarding "toxicity" are, if people break them I hope I'll be able to report them and hopefully get them IP/HWID chat banned for weeks if not more - which can't be based on poor AI, or else false positives/report abusing will be a problem.

    Provide players with a chat channel where being toxic is allowed. A channel, which you have to join on purpose.
    That would reduce the amount of toxicity in the general channels. That's already the tactic they have employed on the discord as well with the Guild Chat.
  • PeggysuegotParriedPeggysuegotParried Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Warth wrote: »
    BaSkA13 wrote: »
    A block feature which will make that person's nameplate a different color that completely removes that guy from my chat/chat bubbles and help me boycott him as much as I possibly can is more than enough.

    Also, whatever Ashes ToS regarding "toxicity" are, if people break them I hope I'll be able to report them and hopefully get them IP/HWID chat banned for weeks if not more - which can't be based on poor AI, or else false positives/report abusing will be a problem.

    Provide players with a chat channel where being toxic is allowed. A channel, which you have to join on purpose.
    That would reduce the amount of toxicity in the general channels. That's already the tactic they have employed on the discord as well with the Guild Chat.

    That's a fair idea, for players that like it a bit more spicy.
  • Warth wrote: »
    Provide players with a chat channel where being toxic is allowed. A channel, which you have to join on purpose.
    That would reduce the amount of toxicity in the general channels. That's already the tactic they have employed on the discord as well with the Guild Chat.

    I agree that's a great idea, but I'm not sure allowing for a channel where breaking their ToS is going to be acceptable by Intrepid.

    Let's say calling me fat is against ToS. I don't mind it and I won't report people who do that. However if there's a channel where people call others fat, nothing will stop someone from going there only to report these people, because Intrepid wouldn't say "ToS is not enforced in the following channels: x, y, z". I'm using a dumb example, but things can quickly escalate if people start saying nazi propaganda, racial slurs, doxxing, sharing scammer links, pedophilia etc, which could even get them in legal trouble.

    Simply make rules which are not subjective, give players a block option (and a way to identify blocked people easily), give players a report button and don't issue suspensions/bans based on AI only.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    BaSkA13 wrote: »
    A block feature which will make that person's nameplate a different color that completely removes that guy from my chat/chat bubbles and help me boycott him as much as I possibly can is more than enough.

    Also, whatever Ashes ToS regarding "toxicity" are, if people break them I hope I'll be able to report them and hopefully get them IP/HWID chat banned for weeks if not more - which can't be based on poor AI, or else false positives/report abusing will be a problem.
    We have already seen multiple people banned from the forum and Discord so clearly Intrepid is willing to police toxicity. I can’t imagine it’ll be any different in the game.
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  • H8edHeroH8edHero Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    I would like to be able to add a note to a person I ignore. That note should be account bound as well in case they have multiple toons. So that way months later if some interaction pops up I can see why. Choose to give them a second chance or do some of the above mentioned ideas.
  • Great BraeGreat Brae Member
    edited September 2020
    I was just thinking of having player history as an option, like an open record of how much players killed in the open world vs non-comabatants, or initiated with non-combatants, kills of them, kills of open non-pvp world comabatants, and how many times/highest level of curruption they had.

    This can go with stats from instanced pvp/pve as well like how many times they died in pve content or pvp/world pvp content, and other statistic stats.

    In the end it can tell the player if they are a greiver (if they spent allot of time/had high curruption) and you would know instinctly if that player is toxic. You can have the system give the player that did wrong negative node reputation for wrong-doings like pking a player to steal there resources, robbing caravan's etc. Even bigger loss if you attack a non-combatant even.
  • GrihmGrihm Member


    However I would like to add a twist. For players that continue to be a plague on our nodes, as a Merchant myself and running a player stall. I would like the following options on my merchant:

    *Give a discount to high rep players
    *Charge extra for bad rep players
    *Have the right to refuse service to a bad rep player by entering his name on a block list, and when he tries to buy have a message for him saying he is being refused service.


    Now some people will say money is money, and they have every right to feel that way, for me personally I would rather stick to my principles then help enable these people. Even if just a handful of merchants did it, I'm sure players would not only appreciate the discounts but would be dismayed if a item they really wanted was for sale and they could not get it due to being a weenie!

    Please let me know any other suggestions you might have to improve on a system like this if you like this idea thanks for reading.

    Fully supported, and i will do this myself with my armors and materials from hunts.
    Having the " security " as well as a system that bases a reputation on prices i feel would also remove the possible blackmail or threats that could arise from a massive abusive guild.

    If a player has a stall, he o she could become forced to sell at any price, but a system of reputation could be a safety net for many, because many could be mic shy etc. With that system in play overall, no one would be threatened or blackmailed, because we as players have no say over the games code and rule set.
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