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Roll is part of the general game?

I mean i see some videos and I realized the characters rolls... is this means doesn't care your race or class you can roll with your character and is part of the game like in Dark Souls?

I just don't like it, but I want to know if this is going to be like that.

Comments

  • So far yep. It doesn't have I-frames by default, and some classes will be better at it.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited August 2020
    I'm not sure. In A1, it seems like everyone can roll but in the past, they have said rolling will be limited to some classes and I haven't heard differently yet.

    Might be something that is on the table to change as we test the hybrid system.

  • DreohDreoh Member
    edited August 2020
    So far yep. It doesn't have I-frames by default, and some classes will be better at it.

    Which personally I believe is a mistake, because it will be completely useless against tab-target players who's abilities track you.

    I-frames don't exist on these dodges just to add extra safety, they exist to give a base level of safety, the movement is a bonus.

    Edit: A possible compromise is that dodging unattaches tracking projectiles from you, but that removes the concept of perfectly timing the dodge from the equation, and instead means as soon as you see a projectile leave the enemies hands just dodge and you'll be safe, instead of dodging at the right time when it gets close to you.
  • @Dreoh as I tank it'd just be a way for me to get out of fire and obvious telegraphs a bit earlier. Not entirely sure I'd want my passive mitigation balanced around the capacity to doge roll w/I-frames.

    Unless I was an evasion tank🤔

    64 classes opens a ton of variation.
    Not just in mechanics, but also in flair.

    Stuff like fighters doge rolling further, mages blink w/I-frame, rouge's could gain a short stealth w/bonus avoidance, rangers drop traps ECT ECT.

    It's worth pointing out Steven has been quoted saying that I-frames might end up on player active skills as well.

    Guess we'll have to wait and see.
  • Oh, I agree with "rolls with flair", where a mage has a teleport with i-frames to replace the roll and such
  • I prefer having dodge roll as a universal action. In the footage it is on a cooldown, so you won’t end up with rolypolies like you sometimes see in other games.
  • I am all for an Elf "Cartwheel" and a Dwarf "Cannonball" rolling!
    E8OOol.gif
  • Caeryl wrote: »
    I prefer having dodge roll as a universal action. In the footage it is on a cooldown, so you won’t end up with rolypolies like you sometimes see in other games.

    Which (at the risk of sounding like a broken record on this forum) is why I keep promoting GW2 combat system and it's cooldown/charge-based roll system over systems like ESO where you can spam dodge as long as you have stamina.
  • Dreoh wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    I prefer having dodge roll as a universal action. In the footage it is on a cooldown, so you won’t end up with rolypolies like you sometimes see in other games.

    Which (at the risk of sounding like a broken record on this forum) is why I keep promoting GW2 combat system and it's cooldown/charge-based roll system over systems like ESO where you can spam dodge as long as you have stamina.

    Yeah honestly I kinda hated that all major defensive mechanics were tied to the physical damage resource in ESO. Either a ability resource or cooldowns make it much easier to balance the athletics actions.
  • VioVio Member
    Personally I’m not a big fan of roll dodging with I frames. It’s good in games like dark souls where you can bypass stats for timing(skill) but giving that power to players in the MMO context is too difficult to balance. Unless it is a fairly long cool down, or very limited class skill (sacrificing a lot of damage mitigation via other methods for the opportunity to I-frame roll) I don’t see it working well. And even in those cases, it just feels like a gimmick.

    The versatility alone would probably negate a lot of classes in the rock/paper/scissors meta.
  • Dreoh wrote: »
    Oh, I agree with "rolls with flair", where a mage has a teleport with i-frames to replace the roll and such

    I can't see an Archiwizard rolling at all so definitely yess
  • raylegh wrote: »
    Dreoh wrote: »
    Oh, I agree with "rolls with flair", where a mage has a teleport with i-frames to replace the roll and such

    I can't see an Archiwizard rolling at all so definitely yess

    And a Bard should pirouette. 😉
  • I dont want rolls like it's a Dark Souls, I dont want it.
  • Marcet wrote: »
    I dont want rolls like it's a Dark Souls, I dont want it.

    Could you at least elaborate on your reasoning?

    Would you be ok with it if it was on a cooldown or tied to a limited resource?
  • Dreoh wrote: »
    Marcet wrote: »
    I dont want rolls like it's a Dark Souls, I dont want it.

    Could you at least elaborate on your reasoning?

    Would you be ok with it if it was on a cooldown or tied to a limited resource?

    Hi, yes.

    I don't want skill based combat, people should be able to do stuff because of their gear and stats, not by skill, if not people will do bosses at lvl 1 and rush the game with no equipment. I want stat based combat.

    Its not that im bad at games, I play lots of darksouls and its one of my favourite games, combat is important for me, but I dont want skill based combat here. Maybe if one class (rogue) has it its okay, or maybe its limited like you said.

    Its not the end of the world, but I prefer basic tab combat, click and don't move. That's my opinion.
  • DreohDreoh Member
    edited August 2020
    Marcet wrote: »
    Dreoh wrote: »
    Marcet wrote: »
    I dont want rolls like it's a Dark Souls, I dont want it.

    Could you at least elaborate on your reasoning?

    Would you be ok with it if it was on a cooldown or tied to a limited resource?

    Hi, yes.

    I don't want skill based combat, people should be able to do stuff because of their gear and stats, not by skill, if not people will do bosses at lvl 1 and rush the game with no equipment. I want stat based combat.

    Its not that im bad at games, I play lots of darksouls and its one of my favourite games, combat is important for me, but I dont want skill based combat here. Maybe if one class (rogue) has it its okay, or maybe its limited like you said.

    Its not the end of the world, but I prefer basic tab combat, click and don't move. That's my opinion.

    I just saw your post in the tab-target vs. action combat thread where you outlined your opinion on this and have responded to you there.

    I will say your complaint about lvl 1 players killing end level bosses is definitely hyperbolic and ridiculous. You're essentially advocating that a lvl 1 WoW Classic player could kill Ragnaros if the game was skill-based.
    First of all, that's highly improbable.
    Second, that level of skill is so insane that they deserve to be able to do that.
    Third, dodges and especially cooldown-based dodges don't make you somehow a god.

    Edit: Using insane and improbable examples to dismiss or promote an idea is one of the logical fallacies, but I don't remember the name of it off the top of my head

    Edit2: It's the Appeal to extremes
  • MarcetMarcet Member
    edited August 2020
    Dreoh wrote: »
    Marcet wrote: »
    Dreoh wrote: »
    Marcet wrote: »
    I dont want rolls like it's a Dark Souls, I dont want it.

    Could you at least elaborate on your reasoning?

    Would you be ok with it if it was on a cooldown or tied to a limited resource?

    Hi, yes.

    I don't want skill based combat, people should be able to do stuff because of their gear and stats, not by skill, if not people will do bosses at lvl 1 and rush the game with no equipment. I want stat based combat.

    Its not that im bad at games, I play lots of darksouls and its one of my favourite games, combat is important for me, but I dont want skill based combat here. Maybe if one class (rogue) has it its okay, or maybe its limited like you said.

    Its not the end of the world, but I prefer basic tab combat, click and don't move. That's my opinion.

    I just saw your post in the tab-target vs. action combat thread where you outlined your opinion on this and have responded to you there.

    I will say your complaint about lvl 1 players killing end level bosses is definitely hyperbolic and ridiculous. You're essentially advocating that a lvl 1 WoW Classic player could kill Ragnaros if the game was skill-based.
    First of all, that's highly improbable.
    Second, that level of skill is so insane that they deserve to be able to do that.
    Third, dodges and especially cooldown-based dodges don't make you somehow a god.

    Edit: Using insane and improbable examples to dismiss or promote an idea is one of the logical fallacies, but I don't remember the name of it off the top of my head

    I recommend you reading better, I never said a lvl 1 could beat the last boss. I think you are getting emotional about this in the way you argue. Have a good day.

    Edit: Changing what other people say and exagerating it, how is that called?
  • DreohDreoh Member
    edited August 2020
    Marcet wrote: »
    I recommend you reading better, I never said a lvl 1 could beat the last boss. I think you are getting emotional about this in the way you argue. Have a good day.

    What lol?

    One, I'm not getting emotional, you can't just say that because I'm criticizing your logic.
    Two, you literally said a lvl 1 could beat bosses.

    And I quote
    Marcet wrote: »
    I recommend you reading better, I never said a lvl 1 could beat the last boss. I think you are getting emotional about this in the way you argue. Have a good day.
    Marcet wrote: »
    I don't want skill based combat, people should be able to do stuff because of their gear and stats, not by skill, if not people will do bosses at lvl 1 and rush the game with no equipment. I want stat based combat.

    Edit: The fallacy was Appeal to Extremes, and I haven't changed anything you've said, I've directly quoted you. You can't gaslight me when there's ready to find proof.
  • Dreoh wrote: »
    Marcet wrote: »
    I recommend you reading better, I never said a lvl 1 could beat the last boss. I think you are getting emotional about this in the way you argue. Have a good day.

    What lol?

    One, I'm not getting emotional, you can't just say that because I'm criticizing your logic.
    Two, you literally said a lvl 1 could beat bosses.

    And I quote
    Marcet wrote: »
    I recommend you reading better, I never said a lvl 1 could beat the last boss. I think you are getting emotional about this in the way you argue. Have a good day.
    Marcet wrote: »
    I don't want skill based combat, people should be able to do stuff because of their gear and stats, not by skill, if not people will do bosses at lvl 1 and rush the game with no equipment. I want stat based combat.

    Edit: The fallacy was Appeal to Extremes, and I haven't changed anything you've said, I've directly quoted you. You can't gaslight me when there's ready to find proof.

    I said killing a boss, not killing the last boss, now brother, I have a life to attend, no time to argue with an internet dweller. Have a good day my friend.
  • VioVio Member
    edited August 2020
    Marcet wrote: »
    I said killing a boss, not killing the last boss, now brother, I have a life to attend, no time to argue with an internet dweller. Have a good day my friend.


    I understand your point of view and I agree. I don't think rolling should be a core mechanic. As someone who beat Dark Souls as a level 1 pyromancer, I can say that rolling abuse would be a horrible thing. If it turned out it was a viable choice, it would most certainly be exploited.

    However, I don't think combat will ever get that bad (at least at the final state of the game). AoC staff seems really interested in balancing the combat for both PvP and PvE. If dodge was too similar to Dark Souls, it would definitely be abused/exploited. But more than likely it will have a long cool down, perhaps a shorter cool down if you're a proper archetype or class combo.

    Personally I dislike rolling in MMOs, but it really depends on how its implemented. Breaks the immersion to see a heavy armored tank doing agile rolls back and forth. If it is ever a viable defensive option in the game, it should come at an equal sacrifice of other stats to compensate the I-frame defense.

    From what I understood of the skills explanations, it would be a passive skills versus active skill builds. You can choose how you want to play, and be rewarded for it. I'm sure there will be a limit on how efficient you can make your rolling, skill wise. I know that I'd rather PvP be a clash of skill builds, rather than an elaborate game of tag. But to each their own.


  • Marcet wrote: »
    Dreoh wrote: »
    Marcet wrote: »
    I recommend you reading better, I never said a lvl 1 could beat the last boss. I think you are getting emotional about this in the way you argue. Have a good day.

    What lol?

    One, I'm not getting emotional, you can't just say that because I'm criticizing your logic.
    Two, you literally said a lvl 1 could beat bosses.

    And I quote
    Marcet wrote: »
    I recommend you reading better, I never said a lvl 1 could beat the last boss. I think you are getting emotional about this in the way you argue. Have a good day.
    Marcet wrote: »
    I don't want skill based combat, people should be able to do stuff because of their gear and stats, not by skill, if not people will do bosses at lvl 1 and rush the game with no equipment. I want stat based combat.

    Edit: The fallacy was Appeal to Extremes, and I haven't changed anything you've said, I've directly quoted you. You can't gaslight me when there's ready to find proof.

    I said killing a boss, not killing the last boss, now brother, I have a life to attend, no time to argue with an internet dweller. Have a good day my friend.

    By implying a lvl 1 could rush and kill a boss you're implying all bosses. Even if he rushed and killed a lvl 10 boss that's fine too. I could give the exact same argument that I did for Ragnaros and switch it to Hogger and it'd be the exact same.
  • Waw.... I didn't expect my thread was going to live so long...

    I neither like the idea in terms of "LORE" that classes like paladins, mages, necromancers, bards, etc can use an ability like ROLL, it's obviously an ability more for rogues for example.
  • Marcet wrote: »
    Dreoh wrote: »
    Marcet wrote: »
    I dont want rolls like it's a Dark Souls, I dont want it.

    Could you at least elaborate on your reasoning?

    Would you be ok with it if it was on a cooldown or tied to a limited resource?

    Hi, yes.

    I don't want skill based combat, people should be able to do stuff because of their gear and stats, not by skill, if not people will do bosses at lvl 1 and rush the game with no equipment. I want stat based combat.

    Its not that im bad at games, I play lots of darksouls and its one of my favourite games, combat is important for me, but I dont want skill based combat here. Maybe if one class (rogue) has it its okay, or maybe its limited like you said.

    Its not the end of the world, but I prefer basic tab combat, click and don't move. That's my opinion.

    Look dude, this anti-skill mindset is just not gonna get you anywhere in Ashes. It’s honestly a bit wild and nonsensical to hear someone unironically say skill shouldn’t be rewarded in a multiplayer game. Of course players should have advantages for being skilled, skill and build should both have equal impact on who wins fights.
  • Hurf DerfmanHurf Derfman Member
    edited September 2020
    Sholer wrote: »
    Waw.... I didn't expect my thread was going to live so long...

    I neither like the idea in terms of "LORE" that classes like paladins, mages, necromancers, bards, etc can use an ability like ROLL, it's obviously an ability more for rogues for example.

    I'm fine with everybody having and base line avoidance mechanic that's fundamentally the same across the board, provided the animations and lore match the class fantasies.

    A fighter rolling in the mud, sure. I'd expect a rouge to be more acrobatic, like a jumping cartwheel or a back flip and a ranger to be in the middle.

    A mage with a blink effect, a cleric levitates and elegantly floats to the side.

    And so on.

    What I saw Steven's tank do didn't hurt my feelings, but a ducking side step would make more sense for a guy in full plate.

    Gw2 PVP could be like roly poly wars so I get why peeps don't want it.

    I would prefer to have it but with classy logical aesthetics and extremely judicious use of I-frames based on class. With ways to alter it in the skill tree.

    The more I-frames you get the less health and armor you'll have. I say less is more.
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