The issue with Corruption - How to fix

winner909098

bigepeen wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Reputation will also be a thing as distance matters.
If a known griefer comes to me for repairs then i am not going to repair his stuff.
Lists will be made.
Griefers will find themself locked out of public raids and if they are part of a guild then that guild is going to get busted.
Hard to level and farm, if all the other guilds in the surroundings declared on you.

The problem with reputation is that a system like this can be abused and players can be punished for no reason. For example, someone is behaving like an idiot and farming for hours with a mule without offloading their mats periodically, a player notices this and makes the smart decision to kill the farmer and loots his mule and takes the corruption hit, then the farmer calls the attacker a 'griefer' simply for killing him once and now the attacker is banned from getting repairs from players.

Another scenario is if you were already farming a location, then a moron shows up 30 minutes later and starts farming on top of you, and he reports you for "stealing his mobs" even though you were there long before him. Now you are banned from getting repairs from players.

At least with the corruption system, you can verify that, yes, that player must have attacked a non-combatant. With some sort of reputation system there's a lot of gray area, people can intentionally or unintentionally false report, and it's not verifiable.

The thing is, each player makes their list. So while one or two people may block you, others may block the idiot who claims that you attacked once.

Miracle

Although open-world PvP with % loot drop is exhilarating, it needs to be accompanied with certain protections for the weak or beginning player. Having played both Anti-PK and PK in open-world full loot MMOs, the corruption system seems like a good way to protect the enjoyment of new / weak players from RPKs.

LowQuey

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

The corruption system is designed to address killing many of those who do not fight back. If you want it to address other forms of griefing, either expand the system (that doesn't require removing the current system); or, add a new system

But altering the system an mitigate a lot of what griefing is likely to go on. In that situation it's the game designers ain of risk vs reward is still there but griefing in other ways are far less likely.

Perhaps. Time to kill is targeted at 30 seconds with zero 1-hit kills. However, if a glass cannon attacks a glass cannon, fast time to kill will happen. However, dying so fast would be the fault of the defender.

Another thing to consider: dying has a rather extensive list of penalties that grow as you die more times.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/248136#Comment_248136
Considering the high penalties + time required to travel without fast travel, I think we may see a lot more players using more defensive stats than the damage focus many previous MMO's have favored.

I can still see glass cannon being a thing: it always is. Whether it's the best option or not it will always be a thing because people like seeing the huge damage numbers xD

Correct and it may not be preventable. However, is it worth keeping a high level character around to attack for low level resources? The high level character should be able to generate gold very quickly to pay for such resources. It seems like the time spent getting there and back may be more profitable if the high level literally buys the resources instead.

Griefing rarely has a good reason mate. The world will always create a bigger idiot.

Ashes is heading to risk vs. reward and meaningful PVP through the risk of loss. Players will fight harder to protect what is theirs. I'm not seeing the place of least harm anywhere around

Read the OP - it's there 😋

Dreoh

insomnia wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

LowQuey wrote: »

Ridik wrote: »

I think your problem is the belief that there is a unflagging system. You cannot unflag yourself on a whim. You have to wait.

Who said on a whim? I think people are forgetting the scale of this map. There is no fast travel. Calling for help will take people a fairly long time to reach you. In that time the person could have left. A rogue could be hidden. They could have logged off. They could have just gone to a town where they are no long flagged by default.

And?

If you get jumped in the wilderness by a bandit and no one is there to save you then you fucked up by not using the buddy system.

What if you can't play at the same times as your friends, if they even want to play this game. Or they can't play at the time you can. Not everybody works doing the same hourse, doing the day. Maybe they are a different level or want to go somewhere else. I hate that you have to rely on others. For me that ruins it. My experience tells me you can't rely on others being able to provide what you need or being there.
And as have been say in the previous topics about this. Lets wait and see. Though i do have a feeling that the testers won't abuse the system. Though some might do it just to test the system

You do realize we're talking about a game that is all about cooperation and working together?
And nothing you've said about running around solo discounts my point. If you go out solo into dangerous territory that's on you. If your friends aren't online, then group with another player from your node who's doing the same thing. Hell, that even helps build the sense of community.

Also, I think some people are forgetting that even if you cleanse your corruption, it's easier to get corrupted again based on how much corruption you've accumulated in your lifetime.

NelsonRebel

Warth wrote: »

I hate that you have to rely on others. For me that ruins it.

(real) MMORPGs might just not be the genre for you in that case.

I have to agree here.

One of my gripes with ESO is that you can do everything completely solo and become a master crafter of everything and every style. And the majority of it requires little to no player/player interaction.

LowQuey

Dreoh wrote: »

Also, I think some people are forgetting that even if you cleanse your corruption, it's easier to get corrupted again based on how much corruption you've accumulated in your lifetime.

Umm source?

LowQuey

Miracle wrote: »

Although open-world PvP with % loot drop is exhilarating, it needs to be accompanied with certain protections for the weak or beginning player. Having played both Anti-PK and PK in open-world full loot MMOs, the corruption system seems like a good way to protect the enjoyment of new / weak players from RPKs.

I agree entirely that its exhilarating and they need to protect the weak new players. But this system is designed to stop GRIEFING. Think of griefing like online bullying. Level of player has nothing to do with it.

Dreoh

LowQuey wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

Also, I think some people are forgetting that even if you cleanse your corruption, it's easier to get corrupted again based on how much corruption you've accumulated in your lifetime.

Umm source?

Steven mentioned it in one of the livestreams or interviews, he said that even after you cleanse your corruption, you have a hidden overall corruption score that influences your corruption gain. I'll have to get back to you on the source because I don't remember exactly where it was

Edit: In this interview with Summit1G at 42:55 he mentions you get corruption based on the number of previous non-combatant kills but it's unclear in this quote if he's referring to total or just in this corruption instance. It's not the quote I was referring to though, I'm still looking for that one.

Dreoh

@LowQuey here we go I found it

In Asmongold's Steven interview at 33:33 Steven starts describing how your total player kills influences how much corruption you gain even after you've cleansed your corruption. He does say that you can lower the total killscore by an amount, but doesn't say how or if it will be difficult or not.

LowQuey

@Dreoh Cheers buddy
As I said in the OP I'm new to AoC so theres some stuff I just don't know. So far this thread has been REALLY informative


Edit: Ok so theres loads of stuff in this that isnt on Wiki. Is there like a list of these interviews that I can just go through?

mcstackerson

This probably has most things but there is a lot there: https://ashespost.com/category/resources/transcriptions/

Dreoh

@LowQuey you can go to youtube and just search "Interview Steven Shariff" and you'll find a bunch

There's 3 by the big streamers, Summit1G, Asmongold and TimtheTatman that I've seen so far

There's a bunch of old interviews over the last few years too by smaller streamers/youtubers

LowQuey

@Dreoh

Well I just watched the entire thing and I get it a lot better now. So from what he's said there the primary way PvP will be in the game is through open world but not so much the "I want to fight so i hit you" sense but more along the lines of caravans, guild wars, node wars etc giving you a independent flag depending on who you are interacting with. So for example you have three people all in different guilds and person A and person B are in guilds that are at war with each other while person C is only at war with person A's guild. So for person B and person C they would look like non-combatants to each other while person A to person B and person A to person C they would appear as combatants.

Is that right or did I completely get the wrong end of the stick?

Dreoh

@LowQuey Well, that does exist, guilds can flag for war against certain guilds, but everything described in this thread already does also exist. You can still attack John Doe who's out in the wilderness mining iron if he has somehow scorned you, or if you just want to kill someone for some reason. Though you will incure penalties in the form of corruption and a semi-permanent one in the kill-counter thing.

FuryBladeborne

LowQuey wrote: »

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

The corruption system is designed to address killing many of those who do not fight back. If you want it to address other forms of griefing, either expand the system (that doesn't require removing the current system); or, add a new system

But altering the system an mitigate a lot of what griefing is likely to go on. In that situation it's the game designers ain of risk vs reward is still there but griefing in other ways are far less likely.

I'm not sure that I understand what your getting at as it seems that your echoing my statement; but, it looks like an oppositional statement. As I said, you can expand the system (read: alter the system) as long as your not removing the punishments already in place as a valid system to address other forms of greifing.

LowQuey wrote: »

I can still see glass cannon being a thing: it always is. Whether it's the best option or not it will always be a thing because people like seeing the huge damage numbers xD

I have been wondering about it. I think that it will really depend upon how much the glass cannons die. Large xp debt turning the estimated 160-240 (I think) hours to max level into something several times higher may encourage people to get some defensive stats. That is just my impression, though. We will see how it plays out.

Griefing rarely has a good reason mate. The world will always create a bigger idiot.

Point taken.

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

Ashes is heading to risk vs. reward and meaningful PVP through the risk of loss. Players will fight harder to protect what is theirs. I'm not seeing the place of least harm anywhere around

LowQuey wrote: »

Read the OP - it's there 😋

I already did an almost line by line breakdown of the original post and what I agree with and what is wrong with the ideas for most of the post until I realized that what was wanted was to replace the current corruption system with a reward and recognition mechanic and a punishment of receiving less value for items looted off of dead players. This will not happen. The point of the corruption system is a punishment for killing players that will not fight back (which will generally be much lower level or weaker than the attacker) either repetitively (which will be difficult due to the respawn mechanic) or for killing many such players. The OP idea is nowhere near punishing in comparison to the current corruption mechanic; and, players will not be rewarded more than a percentage of carried crafting material drops for killing others that will not fight back.

My breakdown is about halfway down the first page of this thread. If you agree with the OP, I think you should read it.