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Visual progression and how to fix it (🎬take 2)

Potato BasketPotato Basket Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited September 2020 in General Discussion
I want to remind you the point of this post is to have a discussion🙏

Following the discussion on reddit, considering main arguments from the comments I'd like to suggest an alternative solution that tries to mitigate the loss of visual progression while potentially improve Intrepid's business model

A win win for everyone so please, bear with me

The problem
- Being able to apply costume skins without requirements (while the rest of the cosmetics have requirements)
- No option to toggle cosmetics on and off

What we want
- Visual progression to matter (that "starter" feel)
- Looks to represent time invested playing the game
- Have a sense of anticipation and exclusivity

What we don't want
- Upset those who already pre-ordered
- Make it harder for those who don't have as much time to play
- Hurt Intrepid's business model

The solution
- Already pre-ordered cosmetics enjoy early adopters benefit of no restrictions (no change)
- Make future costume cosmetics tied to tier
- Price scales accordingly to chosen tier

So every costume skin has these options to chose from:
$35 - COMMON
$30 - UNCOMMON
$25 - RARE
$20 - EPIC
$15 - LEGENDARY

Whichever tier you buy will determine the starting tier of gear you will be able to apply your skin to

Assuming you bought the legendary tier, you will be able to apply your skin only once you equip a legendary armor in game
If you bought the common tier you get to apply the same skin on common gear and higher

The tier represents an entry point of when the player will be able to apply a costume skin according to his gear in game

$25 is the current price for pre-ordered costume skins, being the base line with a reasonable time-frame from purchase to application (assuming rare tier will be the middle in game)

Players who want to deviate from this point will pay the difference accordingly
Those who want to enjoy looking good earlier still can by paying a premium price
Those who want to stand on their principles get to enjoy a lower price
Those who want to enjoy good looks but don't play as much get the middle point

This allows more options catered to more needs, incentivizing visual integrity while breaking it comes at a price that Intrepid and we the players benefit from for further support for the game

Essentially Intrepid just has to pick a point when this will take effect, personally I think with the release of Alpha 1 is a great time

Feedback is very welcome, please be gentle ^^

Comments

  • I play GW2, and i hate the fact that someone who spent 15 dollars on a skin equipped on their mid tier gear can outshine and look better than a hard earned set of legendary gear. I'm all for your suggestion, however I think a more feasible pricing where the highest gear tiers are on the same price would be more convincing for Intrepid to implement your suggestion, and that's for two reasons.

    -Intrepid will, following your suggestion have to make more skins to cater to the different gear tiers.

    -MMOs are one of the few game genres with many players who "No-Life" them, which means slowly but surely, you'll have more players acquiring the higher gear tiers and having no use for the lower ones. This means that Intrepid will be selling skins that look better, skins that are higher in demand for less, and attempting to sell "worse" looking skins, that are lower in demand, for more.

  • Potato BasketPotato Basket Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Riegnar wrote: »
    I play GW2, and i hate the fact that someone who spent 15 dollars on a skin equipped on their mid tier gear can outshine and look better than a hard earned set of legendary gear. I'm all for your suggestion, however I think a more feasible pricing where the highest gear tiers are on the same price would be more convincing for Intrepid to implement your suggestion, and that's for two reasons.

    -Intrepid will, following your suggestion have to make more skins to cater to the different gear tiers.

    -MMOs are one of the few game genres with many players who "No-Life" them, which means slowly but surely, you'll have more players acquiring the higher gear tiers and having no use for the lower ones. This means that Intrepid will be selling skins that look better, skins that are higher in demand for less, and attempting to sell "worse" looking skins, that are lower in demand, for more.

    What I meant is for the same costume skin you have different entry points of tiers, not different skin for different tier as you understood
  • Question is visual progression a problem in AoC the game isn’t even out yet?

    Steven has said that they want the visual progression to be good and that the end game gear to look as good as cosmetics bought from the shop.

    I personally don’t start glamouring my equipment until I reach the end game because I like seeing the progression of my armour and weapons, however others do not and want to look good from the start and why shouldn’t they?

    It doesn’t hurt anyone if they do and the only time it’s bad is if you literally have to pay to look good in the game...looking at you BDO
  • So, you want to lock people to paying extra just because they have lower level gear? Or make them choose to wait until the work their way up to higher tier gear just to get the same cosmetic skin?
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The problem with this idea is that it it feels like pay to win. While you are not outright winning by looking better. You making it so that only the people with a very disposable income can really use cosmetics.

    "- Being able to apply costume skins without requirements"
    I don't agree that this is actually a issue. Like I was trying to say before in your other thread. This is extremely temporary. Players will exceed those requirements fairly quickly, and the good ol days of visual progression will be gone until intrepid spools up a new server. It may take a month to a half a year, but sooner or later players are going to look epic. I think day one you are going to see a ton of cosmetics anyways. They have been selling cosmetics for years now. The idea that there will be a time where everyone looks like peasants is a fantasy already.

    Complicating the pricing of cosmetics for a temporary gain of a slight sense of visual progression is just not worth it in my opinion. I like the idea of no cosmetics/ being able to turn them off. Sadly everyone acts like a todder that just got their moms phone that was playing "baby shark" taken away when you talk about being able to disable cosmetics on your client. We ain't gonna win this one.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • With the sheer amount of cosmetic skins Intrepid has sold, the real question should be, will the game have enough unique armor to compete with them?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited September 2020
    ninfosho wrote: »

    The problem
    - Being able to apply costume skins without requirements (while the rest of the cosmetics have requirements)


    The solution

    So every costume skin has these options to chose from:
    $35 - COMMON
    $30 - UNCOMMON
    $25 - RARE
    $20 - EPIC
    $15 - LEGENDARY

    Whichever tier you buy will determine the starting tier of gear you will be able to apply your skin to
    This solution doesn't fix this problem. It just makes it more expensive.
  • WarthWarth Member
    edited September 2020
    Noaani wrote: »
    ninfosho wrote: »

    The problem
    - Being able to apply costume skins without requirements (while the rest of the cosmetics have requirements)


    The solution

    So every costume skin has these options to chose from:
    $35 - COMMON
    $30 - UNCOMMON
    $25 - RARE
    $20 - EPIC
    $15 - LEGENDARY

    Whichever tier you buy will determine the starting tier of gear you will be able to apply your skin to
    This solution doesn't fix this problem. It just makes it more expensive.

    agreed
  • WarthWarth Member
    edited September 2020
    Alternative Idea:

    Create an "immersion mode" setting in the UI.
    This would only show cosmetics deemed immersive:

    Uncommon starting with lvl 10+
    rare with 20+
    epic with 30+
    legendary with 40+

    certains cosmetics giant duck heads, swimwear etc. wouldn't be shown at all to people who have it toggled.

    This will:
    *prevent immersion breaking for players who it is important to.
    *still allow people to show off their shinies to everybody eventually once they are at the required level and most people even before that
    *Allow IS to sell items that don't fit into the fantasy setting as people within immersion mode wouldn't see them.

    Hard on/off toggles are bad. This one is not
  • Also, in terms of costumes, i have only seen the march 2020 armor, that would be immersion breaking. Maybe 1-2 more.

    Most others don't really seem to be off the charts to me. Just different types of armor any seasoned adventure could have
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Warth wrote: »
    Alternative Idea:

    Create an "immersion mode" setting in the UI.
    This would only show cosmetics deemed immersive:

    Uncommon starting with lvl 10+
    rare with 20+
    epic with 30+
    legendary with 40+

    certains cosmetics giant duck heads, swimwear etc. wouldn't be shown at all to people who have it toggled.

    This will:
    *prevent immersion breaking for players who it is important to.
    *still allow people to show off their shinies to everybody eventually once they are at the required level and most people even before that
    *Allow IS to sell items that don't fit into the fantasy setting as people within immersion mode wouldn't see them.

    Hard on/off toggles are bad. This one is not

    A idea I would be in favor of, but once again the crying would never stop. They say that I am ruining their fun, by restricting their freedom of self expression. I say they are ruining my fun by turning the games that I play to immerse myself into some bad ass fantasy shit into a Walmart parking lot. What these people don't realize is that the allowing people to disable cosmetics client side is the middle ground. They will still fight until they have dried every last tear in their body to force use to see their shit.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    Alternative Idea:

    Create an "immersion mode" setting in the UI.
    This would only show cosmetics deemed immersive:

    Uncommon starting with lvl 10+
    rare with 20+
    epic with 30+
    legendary with 40+

    certains cosmetics giant duck heads, swimwear etc. wouldn't be shown at all to people who have it toggled.

    This will:
    *prevent immersion breaking for players who it is important to.
    *still allow people to show off their shinies to everybody eventually once they are at the required level and most people even before that
    *Allow IS to sell items that don't fit into the fantasy setting as people within immersion mode wouldn't see them.

    Hard on/off toggles are bad. This one is not

    A idea I would be in favor of, but once again the crying would never stop. They say that I am ruining their fun, by restricting their freedom of self expression. I say they are ruining my fun by turning the games that I play to immerse myself into some bad ass fantasy shit into a Walmart parking lot. What these people don't realize is that the allowing people to disable cosmetics client side is the middle ground. They will still fight until they have dried every last tear in their body to force use to see their shit.

    but you aren't restricting their fun at all.

    You can't toggle it off. The only thing thats holding their freedom of self expression back is them being lvl 18 instead of 20. That's in their agency to change
  • Beck AltarrBeck Altarr Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Right now buying cosmetics for myself isn't something I am going to do. For the price of just cosmetics I can go buy another game or two, it's more expensive than buying Cyberpunk 2077. At almost $140 CAD for a full set... Nope. Not interested. They should allow those of us who have pre-order packages to exchange our sets before launch with sets they put out after our purchase... I am a Dwarf, I wont be using the swamp people stuff. It's wasted money in that regard, I just wanted to get the Voyager + for the availability and access.

    I'd like the Fox Mount and Pet skins... but not for $50 CAD. Not for myself and I know quite a few people who feel the same way so I really don't think this is going to be that much of an issue when likely millions more people will join the game post launch vs the 100-200K or so that have likely gotten the Pre-Order packages.
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  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Warth wrote: »
    but you aren't restricting their fun at all.
    You can't toggle it off. The only thing thats holding their freedom of self expression back is them being lvl 18 instead of 20. That's in their agency to change

    "certains cosmetics giant duck heads, swimwear etc. wouldn't be shown at all to people who have it toggled."

    That, and I personally do want a hard On/Off Toggle. I just realize it will probably never happen. Just like all of these other ideas to increase immersion and reduce cosmetics.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    but you aren't restricting their fun at all.
    You can't toggle it off. The only thing thats holding their freedom of self expression back is them being lvl 18 instead of 20. That's in their agency to change

    "certains cosmetics giant duck heads, swimwear etc. wouldn't be shown at all to people who have it toggled."

    That, and I personally do want a hard On/Off Toggle. I just realize it will probably never happen. Just like all of these other ideas to increase immersion and reduce cosmetics.

    well, the alternative is that they aren't being sold at all.

    Steven already said that they won't go for cosmetics that fit into the setting. So you aren't restricting them, but give them the chance to get what they want
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited September 2020
    @ninfosho

    I said no in the last post, and I stick to that answer for this post as well.

    Similar to what @Vhaeyne said, Allowing cosmetic items to be applied to individual items provides a high level of customization to players that spend a lot of money in the cash shop. This will, in a way, be p2w.

    If its a one piece cosmetic skin that cannot be mix and matched, then that level of customization doesn't exist. Sure you would look cool, but a player that matches different pieces of gear to create a cool set, will look cooler.

    Does it ruin immersion? Yes. But its about choosing the lesser of the two evils.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Warth wrote: »
    well, the alternative is that they aren't being sold at all.

    Steven already said that they won't go for cosmetics that fit into the setting. So you aren't restricting them, but give them the chance to get what they want
    https://youtu.be/KtVUiS7yAHE?t=54m10s

    Seems pretty set in stone unfortunately. I like the discussion, but I think the majority of players want what he is describing in the video.

    It would be really cool if someone figured out a way to client side mod the cosmetics out of the game, and intrepid just looked the other way. Like FFXIV tried to do until nude screenshots started ending up on their twitter feed. :D
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • MerekMerek Member
    edited September 2020
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    well, the alternative is that they aren't being sold at all.

    Steven already said that they won't go for cosmetics that fit into the setting. So you aren't restricting them, but give them the chance to get what they want
    https://youtu.be/KtVUiS7yAHE?t=54m10s

    Seems pretty set in stone unfortunately. I like the discussion, but I think the majority of players want what he is describing in the video.

    It would be really cool if someone figured out a way to client side mod the cosmetics out of the game, and intrepid just looked the other way. Like FFXIV tried to do until nude screenshots started ending up on their twitter feed. :D

    I think it's stupid that instead of gearing all cosmetics towards following the "lore" of the game, they're just going to go straight for whatever gets cash. Can't wait to see a bunch of kids in jordans riding ducati's...
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited September 2020
    Merek wrote: »
    With the sheer amount of cosmetic skins Intrepid has sold, the real question should be, will the game have enough unique armor to compete with them?

    THIS. This is a good point to talk about. Because by the looks of it, players are gonna end up looking like lvl50 character on their lvl1s just because of these cosmetics.
  • ninfosho wrote: »
    The problem
    - Being able to apply costume skins without requirements (while the rest of the cosmetics have requirements)
    - No option to toggle cosmetics on and off

    What we want
    - Visual progression to matter (that "starter" feel)
    - Looks to represent time invested playing the game
    - Have a sense of anticipation and exclusivity

    I’d like to suggest we reframe the problem so that it is more honest. I don’t read the problem above to be about your appearance, but about how you are perceived. Those are very different things.

    Let’s say you spent your whole career working tirelessly up the ladder until finally you reach an executive role. As a reward you can afford and then buy a Ferrari. Now driving your Ferrari, it represents an achievement to you, and you want to be perceived as reaching that achievement.

    Now, let’s say I rent a Lambo and pull up next to you.

    The argument you’re making above is that I (as a consumer) shouldn’t be able to rent an expensive car and further that a rental agency (as a business) should not be renting expensive cars, because you feel it diminishes how you are perceived.

    So, my suggested solution is a little more simple: enjoy your Ferrari and take pleasure in what it took to earn it.

    If someone doesn’t think x or y of you, so what? Exclusivity on the whole is largely driven by ego. Take pride in what you’ve done, and let everything else go.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • Personally I'm not against the idea of a cosmetic shop. But as we can see here, it upsets players because they suspect there won't be as visually stunning cosmetics available through playing the game.

    For example I really like that red ghostly concept art armor, but I'm not gonna pay for the cosmetic.

    My solution:
    - Have good looking gear you can earn in game
    - Have (current) cosmetics
    - Have some sort of proxy currency you can earn in-game or buy via cash shop, so that you can still get those unique cosmetic...it'll just take you some time.

    An example of a game which has done this system reasonably well is Warframe. Just have a few ways you can earn these 'gems' which can't be grinded for and are time gated.

    E.g. Flaming set costs 20 gems. 9.99 for 20 gems. You can earn 5 gems a week through completing in-game activities.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Merek wrote: »
    I think it's stupid that instead of gearing all cosmetics towards following the "lore" of the game, they're just going to go straight for whatever gets cash. Can't wait to see a bunch of kids in jordans riding ducati's...
    I'm curious as to why you think this will be the case.
  • lunarskylunarsky Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited September 2020
    @Merek


    What do you mean? They're creating lore for the cosmetics as they release them.
    signature.png
  • Potato BasketPotato Basket Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited September 2020
    CROW3 wrote: »
    ninfosho wrote: »
    The problem
    - Being able to apply costume skins without requirements (while the rest of the cosmetics have requirements)
    - No option to toggle cosmetics on and off

    What we want
    - Visual progression to matter (that "starter" feel)
    - Looks to represent time invested playing the game
    - Have a sense of anticipation and exclusivity

    I’d like to suggest we reframe the problem so that it is more honest. I don’t read the problem above to be about your appearance, but about how you are perceived. Those are very different things.

    Let’s say you spent your whole career working tirelessly up the ladder until finally you reach an executive role. As a reward you can afford and then buy a Ferrari. Now driving your Ferrari, it represents an achievement to you, and you want to be perceived as reaching that achievement.

    Now, let’s say I rent a Lambo and pull up next to you.

    The argument you’re making above is that I (as a consumer) shouldn’t be able to rent an expensive car and further that a rental agency (as a business) should not be renting expensive cars, because you feel it diminishes how you are perceived.

    So, my suggested solution is a little more simple: enjoy your Ferrari and take pleasure in what it took to earn it.

    If someone doesn’t think x or y of you, so what? Exclusivity on the whole is largely driven by ego. Take pride in what you’ve done, and let everything else go.

    The thing is you're not renting a lambo for a limited time, you're actually buying and owning an equivalent to the lambo I've worked for like a Ferrari which doesn't represent any time, effort or progression

    It's seems like everyone OK with it as long as both looking on par but that throws visual progression out the window because everyone will own a Ferrari or an equivalent so there's no exclusivity in owning it in the first place while it also makes my hard earned lambo through tears, sweat and monthly sub fees worth as much as your $25 Ferrari

    If you can't see a problem with that then I guess you'll have to experience it on your own first
  • ninfosho wrote: »
    The thing is you're not renting a lambo for a limited time, you're actually buying and owning an equivalent to the lambo I've worked for like a Ferrari and it doesn't represent time and effort or progression.

    The analogy isn't perfect, so let's say it was a gift. The point was that Lambo guy didn't earn it. If that diminishes how you feel about your Ferrari, I don't think that's something someone else has the responsibility to solve for you.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • WarthWarth Member
    edited September 2020
    Most people in the game will know that you worked for yours, he bought his.

    That's all the prestige you need, that's all the exclusivity you need. Owning a Cosmetic everybody can own through spending 10$? Well he might look nice, but he is still just one of many.

    Own a cosmetic less than 1% of the server owns? Now we are talking. He isn't buying a lambo. I won't pretend to know enough about cars to make a proper analogy, so let me just say this:

    He is buying an somewhat above average car. You on the other hand will have a limited edition, highly exclusive car, that most people will never attain, if you want to put your mind to that.

    Sold cosmetics won't matter, every player, that's no complete casual, will know the difference between your skin and his. @ninfosho
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