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Problems and Solutions for Rogues and the Thieves' Guilds

ViBunjaViBunja Member
edited September 2020 in General Discussion
The main problem of the Thieves' Guild
I have come to the conclusion that having a Thieves' Guild in a publicly known location is a disappointment as it breaks the immersion of what a Thieves' Guild should be.

The solution for the Thieves' Guild problem
The solution is actually simple, don't advertise the guild. The guild can be naturally and be a business like any other, but it has a hidden menu from the NPCs in there, which allows their members to interact. This will make it more immersive for people who don't play Rogues and for those who play them as well.

How can someone join the Guild then? (And also my problem with Rogues)
Usually, Rogues are people who steal, who pickpocket others, it's one of their main traits yet playing MMO's I've noticed no one wants to implement such feature? Sure, it could be complicated and/or problematic, but if well implemented, it can function pretty well. So the solution is to pickpocket and gain a reputation from the Thieves' Guild.

Why pickpocket?
This is not just a mechanic for the Rogues alone, this is also meant to be Gold sink as well, a system for those who AFK. Yes, one of the biggest issues is that some people love to AFK, they can be hours AFKing in-game, and seeing this type of server we are going to have if people AFK in-game it's going to be problematic for some people, this will be a great system to prevent people from AFKing as they could lose their gatherables.

What can a Rogue Pickpocket?
To make this system balanced and not to fear your gear from a thief, I'd say the same thing you lose when you die. Gatherbles and certificates, this way it's no different from dying, expect for not losing EXP.

Is pockpocketing simple?
No, pickpocket should be a minigame where the rogue needs to find the pocket, and after finding the pocket they need to play another minigame. If failing, the PC that is being robbed will have an animation, which will alert anyone nearby them. A detected thief will not grant any corruption, it'd be like an instanced mini-game where killing the thief should grant some certificates as well, the Rogue needs to be careful not to be seen.

I think with these systems will give some immersion for the Thieves' Guild, more RP elements for Rogues for RP and we will obtain another gold sink, and as well, a system to go after AFK players that is better than most scripts anyone has designed so far. The losses aren't that big from getting pickpocket and allow Rogues to do something outside combat related to their class.

EDIT:
The Gold Sink Mechanic
Gatherables/Certificates/Gold can be traded into Thief Tokens, which opens up to special items such skins, these should range from simple and cheap sets, but as well as expensive and good looking clothes, of course, these should be skins and not gear with stats.

What's the Pickpocket Mechanic?
They Pickpocket mechanic will use Stealth as the main ability to sneak unseen because anyone trying to pickpocket will be easily seen. Then the main mechanic for pickpocketing will be for the skillful, pickpocketing will be a mechanic similar to Skyrim's pick locking or the operate table game. Where if you fail once you alert any NPC nearby you and bounty hunters will easily spot you. This makes pickpocketing not abusable, rather, an ability for the skillful.

Why only Rogues can Pickpocket?
Like I mentioned before, you need to use stealth (Chameleon skin), anyone seeing you sneaking behind a person will totally know you are pickpocketing and it's not good for the mini-game. Some secondary rogue archetypes grant this chameleon skin, but I still consider them rogues.

Comments

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    Solid Ideas. Nothing more I can say really.
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    Sounds fun! To clarify, are you saying the gold that is pickpocketed is removed from circulation and you gain reputation instead?
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    Diocles wrote: »
    Sounds fun! To clarify, are you saying the gold that is pickpocketed is removed from circulation and you gain reputation instead?

    Nah I don't think he is saying that.
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    Diocles wrote: »
    Sounds fun! To clarify, are you saying the gold that is pickpocketed is removed from circulation and you gain reputation instead?

    You get the gold/certificates/gatherable. You gain reputation as well for the Thieves' Guild, it should have like a lower exp compared to quests as you are supposed to climb the ladder of ranks. I'd say pickpocketing is the lowest of the activities.
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    DioTheHeroDioTheHero Member
    edited September 2020
    It's not a "gold sink" then if the money isn't being removed from the game.

    Edit: Still, I like the idea.
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    Diocles wrote: »
    It's not a "gold sink" then if the money isn't being removed from the game.

    Edit: Still, I like the idea.

    I was going to implement a system where you would have to "laundry your gold", but I thought later that would be way too much coding, already. Instead how about this, with the items you steal you can get a special currency that you can trade your stolen items for. In exchange, you can unlock cosmetics from the Thieves' Guild.
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    ViBunja wrote: »
    Diocles wrote: »
    It's not a "gold sink" then if the money isn't being removed from the game.

    Edit: Still, I like the idea.

    I was going to implement a system where you would have to "laundry your gold", but I thought later that would be way too much coding, already. Instead how about this, with the items you steal you can get a special currency that you can trade your stolen items for. In exchange, you can unlock cosmetics from the Thieves' Guild.

    There you go. That's a better way to do it.
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    HasorkoHasorko Member, Alpha One
    I don't think every rogue has to be in the thieves guild. Not every criminal is part of a gang or syndicate either.

    However I do very much agree there shouldn't be that huge House "Association of Thieves and Murderer" in the middle of the town. Nor should there be a NPC giving out handouts so you absolutely cant miss it. Maybe it should also come with certain restrictions being in the thieves guild. Like being blessed apostle by the gods, while being part time murderer only makes sense in certain religions...

    I feel like the pick pocketing idea has a lot of potential to be abused. Also I acutally prefer a world in which there are people even when afk over running through empty streets, getting the feeling of being in danger the second I leave the desk. (Also it will be frustrating for those who actually pickpocket, because people will just not stand around then. So there wont be anything to pickpocket to begin with.

    WoW had a simple pickpocket mechanic and it only worked on monsters. I can see a little more sophisticated system work as long as it is on mobs. However, I have the feeling, thats the kind of system, which will slowly be forgotten, becoming pointless.
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    It’s a fair point to bring up how in the world anyone would know to join a Thieves Guild. I like the idea of being able to pickpocket bits of gold or materials off random players in exchange for Reputation or some other miscellaneous Thief Tokens. I’m not sure how a mini game would quite work given that players are more often than not running and it’d be difficult to maintain proximity for any significant amount of time, but it would be interesting.
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    Thief tokens for money sink someone sounds good
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    While you might be using the term 'rogue' in the traditional sense/definition, since this is an entire archetype in game, I think this is a bit of a misnomer. Rogues in games today are identified as more the mdps type, with quick and devastating attacks, often with a more covert ops type role (hence the reason for stealth abilities usually).

    So I kind of take exception to the idea that you just consider Rogues, 'thieves' because we are not by default. (although we can also BE but not as a matter of fact)

    If you want a thieves guild I have zero problems with the concept but it should be open to ANYONE who is interested in the more seedy underbelly of ones city. This type of side activity might either run contrary or align with possible religious affiliations (so you probably won't see any life clerics or Paladins pickpocketing)

    Note: If you choose to participate in this type of guild you could also, if caught, become corrupt which will lead to city guards looking for you and if caught, put in jail for X hours of game time to 'work off' that corruption.
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    CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited September 2020
    PlagueMonk wrote: »

    If you want a thieves guild I have zero problems with the concept but it should be open to ANYONE who is interested in the more seedy underbelly of ones city. This type of side activity might either run contrary or align with possible religious affiliations (so you probably won't see any life clerics or Paladins pickpocketing)

    Note: If you choose to participate in this type of guild you could also, if caught, become corrupt which will lead to city guards looking for you and if caught, put in jail for X hours of game time to 'work off' that corruption.

    I agree. It shouldn't just be restricted to rogues and I'm pretty sure that it isn't.
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    ViBunjaViBunja Member
    edited September 2020
    PlagueMonk wrote: »
    While you might be using the term 'rogue' in the traditional sense/definition, since this is an entire archetype in game, I think this is a bit of a misnomer. Rogues in games today are identified as more the mdps type, with quick and devastating attacks, often with a more covert ops type role (hence the reason for stealth abilities usually).

    So I kind of take exception to the idea that you just consider Rogues, 'thieves' because we are not by default. (although we can also BE but not as a matter of fact)

    If you want a thieves guild I have zero problems with the concept but it should be open to ANYONE who is interested in the more seedy underbelly of ones city. This type of side activity might either run contrary or align with possible religious affiliations (so you probably won't see any life clerics or Paladins pickpocketing)

    Note: If you choose to participate in this type of guild you could also, if caught, become corrupt which will lead to city guards looking for you and if caught, put in jail for X hours of game time to 'work off' that corruption.

    I'm using Rogue in the most common term in D&D and Fantasy instead of the Anime where Rogues are Cops in Disguise. Then there is the issue with the mechanic only Rogues can use for pickpocket is stealth. If any other class could pickpocket, then they would need to have stealth which will break the game. The reason why Rogues will only be Rogues is because of some keywords in the Wiki: Sabotage, Espionage, and Intrigue. From the looks of it, the Thieves' Guild is going to be limited to classes that can "sneak" which is very limited to Rogues, since it was confirmed as well that only Rogues can use stealth.

    Let's clarify corruption when a player is corrupted, they are no considered criminals, but monsters. There is no jail for the corrupted, but it's KoS. Hence why I said there no corruption gained. However, this is why I said there is no corruption in killing a thief, and of course, stuff drops.

    Though for bounty hunters, hunting down thieves should be a thing and it should grant the same mechanics, IMO, getting tokens for hunting down corrupted and thieves. Which in return bounty hunters could get skins for their gear and weapons.
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    Hasorko wrote: »
    I don't think every rogue has to be in the thieves guild. Not every criminal is part of a gang or syndicate either.

    However I do very much agree there shouldn't be that huge House "Association of Thieves and Murderer" in the middle of the town. Nor should there be a NPC giving out handouts so you absolutely cant miss it. Maybe it should also come with certain restrictions being in the thieves guild. Like being blessed apostle by the gods, while being part time murderer only makes sense in certain religions...

    I feel like the pick pocketing idea has a lot of potential to be abused. Also I acutally prefer a world in which there are people even when afk over running through empty streets, getting the feeling of being in danger the second I leave the desk. (Also it will be frustrating for those who actually pickpocket, because people will just not stand around then. So there wont be anything to pickpocket to begin with.

    WoW had a simple pickpocket mechanic and it only worked on monsters. I can see a little more sophisticated system work as long as it is on mobs. However, I have the feeling, thats the kind of system, which will slowly be forgotten, becoming pointless.

    Pickpocketing won't be easy and won't be simple, it's not just sneaking behind, crotching and hitting a key and waiting for the bar to steal. This is more akin to a mini-game like Skyrim picking locks, . This is a game mechanic that will favor the skillful only, so don't worry, it won't be abused, as it would be similar to Operate game, where if you mess up once, you are detected and you are spotted, nearby NPCs will target you and bounty hunters will easily spot you.

    It's a high risk, high skill, high reward system.
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    ZeekMysticZeekMystic Member
    edited September 2020
    ViBunja wrote: »
    PlagueMonk wrote: »
    While you might be using the term 'rogue' in the traditional sense/definition, since this is an entire archetype in game, I think this is a bit of a misnomer. Rogues in games today are identified as more the mdps type, with quick and devastating attacks, often with a more covert ops type role (hence the reason for stealth abilities usually).

    So I kind of take exception to the idea that you just consider Rogues, 'thieves' because we are not by default. (although we can also BE but not as a matter of fact)

    If you want a thieves guild I have zero problems with the concept but it should be open to ANYONE who is interested in the more seedy underbelly of ones city. This type of side activity might either run contrary or align with possible religious affiliations (so you probably won't see any life clerics or Paladins pickpocketing)

    Note: If you choose to participate in this type of guild you could also, if caught, become corrupt which will lead to city guards looking for you and if caught, put in jail for X hours of game time to 'work off' that corruption.

    I'm using Rogue in the most common term in D&D and Fantasy instead of the Anime where Rogues are Cops in Disguise.

    Hmm you say that but rogues in 5e specifically have a thieve archetype that makes them better at it. While rogues May be better at pickpocketing and stealing that isn’t necessarily what they excel at. For me a rogue is someone who strikes quickly and may not have the strength behind it but know how’s to make those hits count. Those that can evade attackers, capture and get themselves out of tough situations with misdirection and cunning. Rogues can be thieves assassins, tricksters and scouts. So while you’re not entirely wrong you can build a rogue that doesn’t and haven’t stolen anything in their life.

    I’m curious about the cops in disguise thing doesn’t sound much like a rogue, although they have released inquisitive for the rogue in 5e so you could play that as a detective
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    KeybladerH wrote: »
    Hmm you say that but rogues in 5e specifically have a thieve archetype that makes them better at it. While rogues May be better at pickpocketing and stealing that isn’t necessarily what they excel at. For me a rogue is someone who strikes quickly and may not have the strength behind it but know how’s to make those hits count. Those that can evade attackers, capture and get themselves out of tough situations with misdirection and cunning. Rogues can be thieves assassins, tricksters and scouts. So while you’re not entirely wrong you can build a rogue that doesn’t and haven’t stolen anything in their life.

    I’m curious about the cops in disguise thing doesn’t sound much like a rogue, although they have released inquisitive for the rogue in 5e so you could play that as a detective

    Rogues in AoC already have Pick Locking and Pick Locking is a skill for thieves, most of the time the rogues will be stealing a town's/village's stuff that they hide which could lead to something extra in a quest. It's not just limited to open chests, if anything, chests are rare, getting inside a castle, or something, stealing something is more of a thief and usually, you get Sleight of Hand and Stealth as Rogue.

    And I'm not saying all Rogues need to be part of the Thieves' Guild, I'd say only those who want to be a Thieve. As for D&D, it stats the Thieves' Guild is for Rogues and Thieves. I'd say, thieves, are more specialized mercs in being stealthy, taking down opponents faster and not upfront. So I really can't see anything but a Rogue doing all that, IMO, if Mages could have an invisibility spell then they could join as well. Sadly true invisibility doesn't exist in AoC and only Rogues can become semi-invisible (kind of like camouflage from Predator).

    As for Detectives, you need some Hunter as they are pretty good at being a detective since they have better investigation traits and abilities. Especially since they gain skills like locate objects and such.
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    ZeekMysticZeekMystic Member
    edited September 2020
    ViBunja wrote: »
    KeybladerH wrote: »
    Hmm you say that but rogues in 5e specifically have a thieve archetype that makes them better at it. While rogues May be better at pickpocketing and stealing that isn’t necessarily what they excel at. For me a rogue is someone who strikes quickly and may not have the strength behind it but know how’s to make those hits count. Those that can evade attackers, capture and get themselves out of tough situations with misdirection and cunning. Rogues can be thieves assassins, tricksters and scouts. So while you’re not entirely wrong you can build a rogue that doesn’t and haven’t stolen anything in their life.

    I’m curious about the cops in disguise thing doesn’t sound much like a rogue, although they have released inquisitive for the rogue in 5e so you could play that as a detective

    Rogues in AoC already have Pick Locking and Pick Locking is a skill for thieves, most of the time the rogues will be stealing a town's/village's stuff that they hide which could lead to something extra in a quest. It's not just limited to open chests, if anything, chests are rare, getting inside a castle, or something, stealing something is more of a thief and usually, you get Sleight of Hand and Stealth as Rogue.

    And I'm not saying all Rogues need to be part of the Thieves' Guild, I'd say only those who want to be a Thieve. As for D&D, it stats the Thieves' Guild is for Rogues and Thieves. I'd say, thieves, are more specialized mercs in being stealthy, taking down opponents faster and not upfront. So I really can't see anything but a Rogue doing all that, IMO, if Mages could have an invisibility spell then they could join as well. Sadly true invisibility doesn't exist in AoC and only Rogues can become semi-invisible (kind of like camouflage from Predator).

    As for Detectives, you need some Hunter as they are pretty good at being a detective since they have better investigation traits and abilities. Especially since they gain skills like locate objects and such.

    I’m technically not disagreeing with you, I think I’ve just seen it as all thieves are rogues but not all rogues are thieves.

    I will also say that I do like you’re idea, however I don’t think IS is intending for the social organisations to be available to only one archetype

    Also back to d&d talk that is interesting with the hunter/ranger that sounds like a really good combo with the inquisitive and hunter
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    KeybladerH wrote: »
    I’m technically not disagreeing with you, I think I’ve just seen it as all thieves are rogues but not all rogues are thieves.

    I will also say that I do like you’re idea, however I don’t think IS is intending for the social organisations to be available to only one archetype

    Also back to d&d talk that is interesting with the hunter/ranger that sounds like a really good combo with the inquisitive and hunter
    Oh, yeh, that's good.

    Actually, we do have a religious social organization that is only for the cleric archetype, so you are kind of wrong in there which grants you the archbishop title with super cleric skills during seiges. So I don't see why there can't be one of Rogues.

    As for D&D, you need revised Ranger Hunter, and take 'Humanoids' as your favoured enemy. I'd say at least level 5th, as that's when you get level 2 spells, which includes locate objects. Though if you get level 6th, then you gain Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer Improvements, which are great improvements for a detective build.
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    ViBunja wrote: »
    KeybladerH wrote: »
    I’m technically not disagreeing with you, I think I’ve just seen it as all thieves are rogues but not all rogues are thieves.

    I will also say that I do like you’re idea, however I don’t think IS is intending for the social organisations to be available to only one archetype

    Also back to d&d talk that is interesting with the hunter/ranger that sounds like a really good combo with the inquisitive and hunter
    Oh, yeh, that's good.

    Actually, we do have a religious social organization that is only for the cleric archetype, so you are kind of wrong in there which grants you the archbishop title with super cleric skills during seiges. So I don't see why there can't be one of Rogues.

    As for D&D, you need revised Ranger Hunter, and take 'Humanoids' as your favoured enemy. I'd say at least level 5th, as that's when you get level 2 spells, which includes locate objects. Though if you get level 6th, then you gain Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer Improvements, which are great improvements for a detective build.

    I haven’t seen anywhere that says only clerics can become the leaders of the religious social organisation. The title is earned through your progression and standing in that organisation. If I’ve missed something and am wrong then I apologise, but they have said you don’t have to be a cleric to join a religion and I haven’t heard anything about only clerics becoming archbishops.

    Revised ranger is the only good one in 5e lol
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    KeybladerH wrote: »
    ViBunja wrote: »
    KeybladerH wrote: »
    I’m technically not disagreeing with you, I think I’ve just seen it as all thieves are rogues but not all rogues are thieves.

    I will also say that I do like you’re idea, however I don’t think IS is intending for the social organisations to be available to only one archetype

    Also back to d&d talk that is interesting with the hunter/ranger that sounds like a really good combo with the inquisitive and hunter
    Oh, yeh, that's good.

    Actually, we do have a religious social organization that is only for the cleric archetype, so you are kind of wrong in there which grants you the archbishop title with super cleric skills during seiges. So I don't see why there can't be one of Rogues.

    As for D&D, you need revised Ranger Hunter, and take 'Humanoids' as your favoured enemy. I'd say at least level 5th, as that's when you get level 2 spells, which includes locate objects. Though if you get level 6th, then you gain Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer Improvements, which are great improvements for a detective build.

    I haven’t seen anywhere that says only clerics can become the leaders of the religious social organisation. The title is earned through your progression and standing in that organisation. If I’ve missed something and am wrong then I apologise, but they have said you don’t have to be a cleric to join a religion and I haven’t heard anything about only clerics becoming archbishops.

    Revised ranger is the only good one in 5e lol

    Steven said something about having an ArchBishop and stuff. But I don't think that I heard him say that it was only for clerics.
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    ValentineValentine Member, Pioneer, Kickstarter
    Can we make the rogue's guild something run by players instead of NPCs? Maybe have a few in the guild but make it like cities with us making the objectives etc.
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    Valentine wrote: »
    Can we make the rogue's guild something run by players instead of NPCs? Maybe have a few in the guild but make it like cities with us making the objectives etc.

    I'd argue that would be the only realistic solution for managing a true thieve's guild. Which I think open's up some interesting questions on how to tie a player run guild to NPC run aspects of a node. But with a player mayor / leader for a node, and player businesses in the node and surrounding freeholds, this could be a cool way to manage a crime syndicate.
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    3 things:

    1)
    The main problem of the Thieves' Guild I have come to the conclusion that having a Thieves' Guild in a publicly known location is a disappointment as it breaks the immersion of what a Thieves' Guild should be.

    Obviously you're not a fan of Terry Pratchett. In the words of Lord Vetinari of Ankh-Morpork - "If you're going to have crime it might as well be organised crime"


    2) They've already said there will be no pickpocket mechanic - sorry

    3) Being stealthy isn't the same as being able to pickpocket. In fact being unseen can actually hamper this as a huge part of being a pickpocket is actually miss-direction. I know the iconic rogue from D&D and WoW would have you believe this but that's not the type of rogue they seem to be going for in this game. They seem far more interested in the rogue as the stealthy assassin and dungeon delver than the city thief.
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    LowQuey wrote: »
    3 things:

    1)
    The main problem of the Thieves' Guild I have come to the conclusion that having a Thieves' Guild in a publicly known location is a disappointment as it breaks the immersion of what a Thieves' Guild should be.

    Obviously you're not a fan of Terry Pratchett. In the words of Lord Vetinari of Ankh-Morpork - "If you're going to have crime it might as well be organised crime"


    2) They've already said there will be no pickpocket mechanic - sorry

    3) Being stealthy isn't the same as being able to pickpocket. In fact being unseen can actually hamper this as a huge part of being a pickpocket is actually miss-direction. I know the iconic rogue from D&D and WoW would have you believe this but that's not the type of rogue they seem to be going for in this game. They seem far more interested in the rogue as the stealthy assassin and dungeon delver than the city thief.

    3 Things.

    1) Hi, I live in Mexico, we have organized crime in every city, yet we have no idea where they are headquarters though, sorry, organized crime doesn't have a public building where you know they are in there and you can apply for a job.

    2) I already know, this is why I'm suggesting a method to bring it in. Sorry, I thought that was the whole point of this post in the first place.

    3) I wanna play roguelike a thief. I think you are overlooking a large part of the community who wants skill-based abilities and play like a thief.
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