Player Movement - Inertia, Weightiness, and Immersion

This possibly could have been addressed already but I've not been able to find information on the Player Movement Wiki, nor can I recall the exact topic being talked about on the livestreams.

TLDR: Basically, World of Warcraft's character movement system heavily breaks immersion during combat. What I don't enjoy about it boils down to character acceleration and turning radius. These are my suggestions to fix the problem I forsee.

[I'm sure that this is not the sentiment of many veteran MMORPG players like Steven (due to system familiarity bias, which isn't neccesarily bad). This viewpoint is coming from a younger player who is looking to get into the genre through Ashes of Creation.]

My Suggestions: I think players should have three states:
- Not Moving: almost instant rate of rotation, and zero-point turn radius (obviously)
- Accelerating: slower rate of rotation, and mild turn radius
- Maximum Velocity: much slower rate of rotation, and largest turn radius

As a note: even at Maximum Velocity, all values should still be considerably smaller than in Black Desert Online. It's my intuition that having Tab-Targeting requires faster turning overall.

Negatives: Poor accesibility, and less responsive gameplay of course!

Counterpoint: WoW's movement (though certainly easy to learn) has a VERY mild learning curve, and apart from some very niche tactics, lacks a ton of depth.

In Closing: My concern lies with the fact that going with a basic character control system (like WoW's) will massively hamper the combat systems, and be somewhat lack-luster amongst the backdrop of this grand MMORPG for players that share my view.

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Comments

VmanGman

I disagree with that perspective. I don't think that movement needs to be overly complicated through acceleration and turning radius systems (especially the turning radius sounds awful in a MMORPG). I think that WoW's level of fluidity is very good and very important to achieve.

The game can be complex and have a learning curve through many other aspects, but movement should be simple and fluid so as to not be cumbersome. I can see what you mean about immersion, but I think having a movement system that is overly complicated, cumbersome, and not responsive (slower response) would not feel good to play. WoW might not be immersive in its movement, but it sure feels good to move in that game.

CROW3

MrBlueSky wrote: »

My Suggestions: I think players should have three states:
- Not Moving: almost instant rate of rotation, and zero-point turn radius (obviously)
- Accelerating: slower rate of rotation, and mild turn radius
- Maximum Velocity: much slower rate of rotation, and largest turn radius
.

This sounds a bit like the movement dynamics in the Witcher series. It takes some getting used to, but is much more realistic.

Are there other examples that come to mind that are close to the system you’re proposing?

ilisfet

I don't know about a turn radius; I can see the benefits and drawbacks -- but I am wholeheartedly for a little momentum. I'm fine with there being one, fast run speed, but it's important that players come to a stop. Even high octane games like ULTRAKILL and DOOM ease the player to a halt over half a second once WASD is released. That little bit of "sliding" adds an easily palpable sense of weight to yourself.

On turn caps, it can be used for balancing. I do get people turning around in 1 frame is suspicious looking at best, but for responsiveness it can be considered a must (to allow it, that is). On the other hand, helicopters in Battlefield 4 are busted on PC yet balanced on console despite being identical, all because analogue sticks have a built in turn cap -- what made choppers so broke on PC is because they could 180 instantly, taking out any ability to flank them. So, it really comes down to PvP balance on this regard. If AoC were a PvE game, turn caps would be right out, but for PvP they reward flanking. And AoC is a PvX game, which is one of my favorite types, thanks to Dark Souls.

Another route is to implement conditional turn caps: siege beasts could have turn caps, as could attacks. MORDHAU has turn caps that kick in only while attacking or parrying, and otherwise allow all the seizure mimicking spasms a mouse can do. As for why siege beasts and other mounts/monsters, well, look back to my Battlefield 4 example.

Vhaeyne

No thank you. Your suggestions would make the game feel like you are piloting a aircraft. As far as I have ever felt in WOW, with only a small handful of settings tweaks the controls in WOW are really tight.

If they have anything less that the standard MMO controls my reaction will range from complaining on the forums, to outright canceling my sub. I have not given several games in the past the time of day due to shitty controls and UI designs. This is one of those areas where it makes zero sense to reinvent the wheel.

The only compromise I could offer you is to make your suggestions optional. ESO and FFXIVs default movement controls and UI are unplayable to me, but ESO allows mods and FFXIV allows for a high enough degree of customization to make them acceptable. I just literately have to spend the first 20min of a character setting keybindings and options.

Voidwalkers

Your suggestion would make the game feel more like an action game - so it depends on how action-heavy do the devs want Ashes to be.

But imo anything that takes acceleration into account is better suited for a console controller than a traditional wasd keyboard + mouse ...

maouw

I'm with you on inertia - don't know about turning radius (coz I haven't played any games with it that I noticed).
I find linear movement in games really mediocre - even Mario has momentum mechanics and it feels way better than games where letting go of WASD instantly stops you. Such movement feels robotic and unnatural without inertia - coz it's the illusion of inertia that makes you feel like you have weight and impact on the world, rather than a puppet on strings.

Just think of SuperMario64 - the skidding, the turning, the sliding - it feels good.

HellFrost

I completely disagree on this one with you. One thing that WoW, and latest blizzard games in general has spot on is combat fluidity. Blizzard really nailed user experience when it comes to combat to the point that I would call it pretty much perfect for MMORPG or ARPG(Diablo for example)

In WoW combat feels extremely smooth and fluid and whenever you press the action, it actually happens like it should. You always feel that you are in control of every action that you make, there's no frustration, as character is always in your control.

It's very hard to explain but if you were to play WoW and jump into something like AION, RIFT, SWOTR you'd feel that there's some kind of lag, some delay to you controlling your characters and action happening. There's just this feeling that you are not in sync to what you wanna do and what's actually happening. It's a very small lag, but it's so infuriating once you know that it could be soooo much better. For example I never bought or played RIFT, AION or SWOTR after their betas simply because they did not had smooth and fluid combat.

I do agree that there's a hit in immersion when it comes to WoW combat when you are solo questing, specially if you are playing melee class. However once you are in hot combat, you don't really notice immersion, you are too focused on the action and control and that's where it matters the most. That feeling of control during highly packed action. If immersion has to take a hit I'd say lets take it as long as I feel in control of my character.

MrBlueSky

HellFrost wrote: »

I completely disagree on this one with you. One thing that WoW, and latest blizzard games in general has spot on is combat fluidity. Blizzard really nailed user experience when it comes to combat to the point that I would call it pretty much perfect for MMORPG or ARPG(Diablo for example)

In WoW combat feels extremely smooth and fluid and whenever you press the action, it actually happens like it should. You always feel that you are in control of every action that you make, there's no frustration, as character is always in your control.

It's very hard to explain but if you were to play WoW and jump into something like AION, RIFT, SWOTR you'd feel that there's some kind of lag, some delay to you controlling your characters and action happening. There's just this feeling that you are not in sync to what you wanna do and what's actually happening. It's a very small lag, but it's so infuriating once you know that it could be soooo much better. For example I never bought or played RIFT, AION or SWOTR after their betas simply because they did not had smooth and fluid combat.

I do agree that there's a hit in immersion when it comes to WoW combat when you are solo questing, specially if you are playing melee class. However once you are in hot combat, you don't really notice immersion, you are too focused on the action and control and that's where it matters the most. That feeling of control during highly packed action. If immersion has to take a hit I'd say lets take it as long as I feel in control of my character.

1. I'm speaking to base movement systems, and not anything to do with combat specifics. This means I'm not concerned with how mobility skills have been implemented for each class.
2. There is a distinct difference between fluid and simplistic. Somebody who tries Super Mario 64 for the first time will suck and call that movement clunky. However if you actually play the game you find that the movement is rewarding and responsive, even fluid.

By your logic, Super Mario 64 would be frustrating because you can't just do whatever you want at any time; you have to build some momentum and be decent at the game.

Imagine Assassin's Creed with WoW movement.

apmax

I am utterly confused about what exactly you're talking about here.
Whether I'm using the action camera mode or I'm holding right click, I will move my mouse to turn the camera.

Kneczhevo

If size and weight were game mechanics, you'd see a lot of short skinny pvpers running circles around the roleplayers.

In EQ, if you were a halfling, it felt like you were running at high light speed. But, if you were an oger, it felt like you were lumbering slower than molasses. It was all first person perspective, so it just looked this way, everyone moved at same speed.

Reality vs gameplay...

maouw

@Kneczhevo
I don't think AoC has a variance in player size that is comparable to a Halfling vs Ogre. Plus I don't think anyone here is asking for weight calculations of that precision.

Combined with the idea that some people can dash, mages can teleport, etc. there will be variance to player movement speed anyways.

Kneczhevo

@maouw

You are correct. My statement was a sloppy analogy. But, you got my point. 😁

Nerror

Hard no thanks on the turn radius. That just feels clunky as hell, and would actually be immersion breaking for me.. As for inertia, maybe a little when sprinting. While ok on a mount, I prefer almost none on my character.

HellFrost

MrBlueSky wrote: »

1. I'm speaking to base movement systems, and not anything to do with combat specifics. This means I'm not concerned with how mobility skills have been implemented for each class.
2. There is a distinct difference between fluid and simplistic. Somebody who tries Super Mario 64 for the first time will suck and call that movement clunky. However if you actually play the game you find that the movement is rewarding and responsive, even fluid.

By your logic, Super Mario 64 would be frustrating because you can't just do whatever you want at any time; you have to build some momentum and be decent at the game.

Imagine Assassin's Creed with WoW movement.

Movement and combat is directly related because if you have sluggish movement, combat will also feel sluggish. You also opened with how movement in WoW breaks combat immersion which for the most activities it does not.

In the end they want action combat system and if you want to feel action the movement must be simplistic, because all your suggestions adds sluggishness and that takes away from the action.

AC/Super or Super Mario are not action games. Look at Devil May Cry if you want better comparison. Imagine if DMC had turn radius. That would completely ruin the action that's going on.

maouw

@HellFrost
at least Assassin's Creed Odyssey is an Action RPG.
Even smash bros has inertia mechanics with heaps of skills and that doesn't feel clunky.
SuperMario 64 is pretty close to an Action game, and it's not hard to imagine using skills together with that kind of movement.

I do agree that Mario took a while to get moving though (which is why everyone was longjumping).

Merek

I agree that movement should have weight to it, but your specific idea isn't very good. If they used the system you've presented with tab-target, it wouldn't work at all. The whole idea of tab-target is to be completely casual, voiding any target acquisition skill the player may have. Locking the character into a tank-style turn with tab-target just doesn't work. Even in action combat, it'd feel far too grounded and slow.

MrBlueSky

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNidsMesxSE&t=1352s

This GDC talk from 2014 is the best example of what I'm trying to get at. It's a very interesting talk.

maouw

@MrBlueSky
That video is gold!!

Noaani

The kind of movement talked about here would probably be essential for naval content in Ashes, though to an even greater extent than it would be on a single character. That said, I agree with the people here that are saying it isn't needed for character movement.

A game is not a life simulator.

MrBlueSky

maouw wrote: »

@MrBlueSky
That video is gold!!

Thank you! I'm glad you felt what I felt after watching it haha

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