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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
[Feedback] What makes a good MMO?
D3ATHSPARK
Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
This post is intended for the developers to give feedback on past MMO experience. I have been playing games since I was a toddler and starting PC gaming on a Commodore computer. I've followed many MMOs in my time and each did stuff well while failing in other areas. I am also a very perceptive person who over analyzes just about everything, so perhaps you guys will find this feedback useful.
To start, my first MMO was Ultima Online. This was back when games had box copies and seeing the back of the box was literally what made me bring it to my parents and beg them to buy it. I was about 12 at the time and had no idea what I was in for. All I knew was the box screenshots looked epic.
Ultima Online is VERY unique. It is the only MMO I've ever seen to have a skill based system instead of a leveling system. I've honestly preferred this when reflecting back because it felt far more immersive. There were no classes, but rather you built your class based on the skills you chose to master. You could drop a skill to do less damage while picking up another weapon mastery if you so choose, or be a mix of a gatherer and mage. You had SO MANY options. The game also didn't hold your hand. In fact, there was little to no direction when you logged in. You started in front of an inn and it was up to you to choose what to do. You had COMPLETE FREEDOM. It felt great!
Not having levels led to interesting situations. Me being a complete noob and very young I spent a lot of time teaching myself the game. I often ran into more experienced players who looked to murder me and take my stuff. While this would normally feel horrible it wasn't bad because UO had a very simplistic item system. There was no crazy magical gear. Thus losing your equipment just meant stopping by a bank to grab another set of gear. It also felt rewarding when you stumbled across a body to loot because who doesn't like free stuff?! The flagging system seemed perfect to a degree, but slightly lacking in punishment for murderers. You could place bounties on those who kill you encouraging others to track them down. Many times you would see someone run into town and ask for help which led to a whole caravan of people leaving to go hunt a murderer. It felt both rewarding and satisfying. The best part of the skill system shined in combat.
In other games a max level player could kill dozens of lowbies with ease. That is not immersive at all. Yet in UO even a group of noobs could surround a evil player and slowly kill him. Sure they wouldn't do as much damage do to lacking skill, but they could still offer something in a fight. There was strength in numbers but skill was also highly rewarded.
I miss the above mentioned systems very much. I'm baffled no company (that I know of) ever tried a system like this again. I feel as if skills are highly superior to levels. However, I am glad that some systems like the bounty system, open world dungeons, and player housing will be in Ashes. I think one of the most important things I learned with my time in UO was how important community and character customization was. You could often know who someone was in UO by the choice of their clothing and what colors they dyed things. You would also know people by their reputation, whether good or bad. Your actions had merit and the community would spread word themselves of players who were good or bad. Be too negative and you would exile yourself. These are factors I hope make it to Ashes!
My next major MMO was WoW, but before that I did dabble in others.
City of Heroes held a special place in my heart. While I mainly PvPed in UO, CoH was all about PvE. It was one of the most exciting group experiences I've had in an MMO. The constant chaos and sense of community this game brought really made you feel like a super hero. The biggest take away from CoH was the sense of community and how the developers put that into a characters kit. You couldn't do a lot on your own, at least not well. Yet the synergy of having a balanced team allowed for crazy potential. Most beneficial skills couldn't be used on yourself, only allies. It highly encouraged group play and you would constantly here the gratitude of others when you give them your three minute buff. It was easy to make friends with systems like this. It's something to think about when creating support classes and other abilities.
In Warhammer Online my PvP roots from UO came back. This game had a lot of issues, but they brought leveling event areas and big PvP open world areas, including keep battles. These were an absolute blast! You had instant comradery since it was a faction based game, but I could see the same result through guilds in Ashes. Having eventful areas was extremely nice because it encouraged more group play. I think many people are getting sick of the solo adventure that most games are not forcing down the throats of gamers.
There were a few other MMOs I played before WoW as well but nothing really stuck. Most of these games lack a repetitive nature or had a lack of things to do at high level. This is the biggest pitfall in MMOs. The more open the world is the better allowing more freedom and choice for the player.
This brings me to WoW... oh how I loved this game up until Wrath. Most of my excitement for WoW came from growing up with and playing the original games. Being able to experience that world first hand was an experience I'll never forget. The difficulty level was high and any mob could kill you if you weren't prepared. Difficulty is VERY IMPPORTANT as players will want that achievement feeling no matter if it's a hard quest or boss fight. Blazing through mobs at lightning speed isn't fun and leads to boredom.
Almost everything in Classic was designed pretty well. It wasn't perfect but it doesn't need to be. WoW captured the feeling of immersion on an insane level. I'll never forget the first time I went into Onyxia's lair and turned that corner to see a massive sleeping dragon half the size of the cave. It was very similar to seeing the molten giants in MC. The feeling was great but actually clearing MC was a nightmare Time vs reward is also something to consider.
I'll also never forget the opening of AQ. In game events are ALWAYS going to be things that form memories and lead people to remember a game fondly. UO did this as well with monster attacks on towns. It's another way to bring people together to solve an evolving problem. I really hope these happen frequently in Ashes.
Wow's success came through class identity, community, insane immersion, great storytelling, and lots of content/freedom. This is why it was successful for years. Many tried imitating WoW but all failed to grasp these concepts. Even WoW lacked things that could have made it better, but if the above factors in Ashes it will do very well.
After WoW you saw clones pop up left are right. The only one I actually played through was Star Wars The Old Republic. The story telling was great and having a fully voice acted game made it stand out big time. Yet this game fell into the traps I mentioned earlier. Once you hit max level and finish your story it becomes boring. You PvP in matches or raid, that's it. No open world events, pvp, sieges, monster events, nothing. It was a husk with so much missed potential.
Even the WoW devs lost sight of what mattered. They butchered their community and constantly put in features that drove players apart instead of bringing them together. It became the solo theme park it is today. Another husk with very little to offer. All these other companies followed suit thinking it's the only way to make a game. It's led to a decline in gaming in general and has made the MMO genre nothing but a risk in the eyes of delveopers.
I'm glad to see Ashes is taking a different approach. This is why I've backed the game and now offer my support. I've always wanted to make my own MMO and save this genre but I will never get to live out that dream. I figured maybe I can help Steven make his dream game.
While I don't agree with every decision in Ashes I still think the systems sound very effective. i look forward to seeing them in action and giving more detailed feedback. It's easy to disagree or mock something, but I believe in trying something before explaining why one feels it doesn't work. So that will be my approach. I also am seeing way more positive things in Ashes than negative. I will probably be starting a talk shot/podcast just to discuss this game in the future!
This has been my elaborated two cents from a gamer with 22+ years of MMO experience. I hope you find something useful in this wall of text.
-Spark
To start, my first MMO was Ultima Online. This was back when games had box copies and seeing the back of the box was literally what made me bring it to my parents and beg them to buy it. I was about 12 at the time and had no idea what I was in for. All I knew was the box screenshots looked epic.
Ultima Online is VERY unique. It is the only MMO I've ever seen to have a skill based system instead of a leveling system. I've honestly preferred this when reflecting back because it felt far more immersive. There were no classes, but rather you built your class based on the skills you chose to master. You could drop a skill to do less damage while picking up another weapon mastery if you so choose, or be a mix of a gatherer and mage. You had SO MANY options. The game also didn't hold your hand. In fact, there was little to no direction when you logged in. You started in front of an inn and it was up to you to choose what to do. You had COMPLETE FREEDOM. It felt great!
Not having levels led to interesting situations. Me being a complete noob and very young I spent a lot of time teaching myself the game. I often ran into more experienced players who looked to murder me and take my stuff. While this would normally feel horrible it wasn't bad because UO had a very simplistic item system. There was no crazy magical gear. Thus losing your equipment just meant stopping by a bank to grab another set of gear. It also felt rewarding when you stumbled across a body to loot because who doesn't like free stuff?! The flagging system seemed perfect to a degree, but slightly lacking in punishment for murderers. You could place bounties on those who kill you encouraging others to track them down. Many times you would see someone run into town and ask for help which led to a whole caravan of people leaving to go hunt a murderer. It felt both rewarding and satisfying. The best part of the skill system shined in combat.
In other games a max level player could kill dozens of lowbies with ease. That is not immersive at all. Yet in UO even a group of noobs could surround a evil player and slowly kill him. Sure they wouldn't do as much damage do to lacking skill, but they could still offer something in a fight. There was strength in numbers but skill was also highly rewarded.
I miss the above mentioned systems very much. I'm baffled no company (that I know of) ever tried a system like this again. I feel as if skills are highly superior to levels. However, I am glad that some systems like the bounty system, open world dungeons, and player housing will be in Ashes. I think one of the most important things I learned with my time in UO was how important community and character customization was. You could often know who someone was in UO by the choice of their clothing and what colors they dyed things. You would also know people by their reputation, whether good or bad. Your actions had merit and the community would spread word themselves of players who were good or bad. Be too negative and you would exile yourself. These are factors I hope make it to Ashes!
My next major MMO was WoW, but before that I did dabble in others.
City of Heroes held a special place in my heart. While I mainly PvPed in UO, CoH was all about PvE. It was one of the most exciting group experiences I've had in an MMO. The constant chaos and sense of community this game brought really made you feel like a super hero. The biggest take away from CoH was the sense of community and how the developers put that into a characters kit. You couldn't do a lot on your own, at least not well. Yet the synergy of having a balanced team allowed for crazy potential. Most beneficial skills couldn't be used on yourself, only allies. It highly encouraged group play and you would constantly here the gratitude of others when you give them your three minute buff. It was easy to make friends with systems like this. It's something to think about when creating support classes and other abilities.
In Warhammer Online my PvP roots from UO came back. This game had a lot of issues, but they brought leveling event areas and big PvP open world areas, including keep battles. These were an absolute blast! You had instant comradery since it was a faction based game, but I could see the same result through guilds in Ashes. Having eventful areas was extremely nice because it encouraged more group play. I think many people are getting sick of the solo adventure that most games are not forcing down the throats of gamers.
There were a few other MMOs I played before WoW as well but nothing really stuck. Most of these games lack a repetitive nature or had a lack of things to do at high level. This is the biggest pitfall in MMOs. The more open the world is the better allowing more freedom and choice for the player.
This brings me to WoW... oh how I loved this game up until Wrath. Most of my excitement for WoW came from growing up with and playing the original games. Being able to experience that world first hand was an experience I'll never forget. The difficulty level was high and any mob could kill you if you weren't prepared. Difficulty is VERY IMPPORTANT as players will want that achievement feeling no matter if it's a hard quest or boss fight. Blazing through mobs at lightning speed isn't fun and leads to boredom.
Almost everything in Classic was designed pretty well. It wasn't perfect but it doesn't need to be. WoW captured the feeling of immersion on an insane level. I'll never forget the first time I went into Onyxia's lair and turned that corner to see a massive sleeping dragon half the size of the cave. It was very similar to seeing the molten giants in MC. The feeling was great but actually clearing MC was a nightmare Time vs reward is also something to consider.
I'll also never forget the opening of AQ. In game events are ALWAYS going to be things that form memories and lead people to remember a game fondly. UO did this as well with monster attacks on towns. It's another way to bring people together to solve an evolving problem. I really hope these happen frequently in Ashes.
Wow's success came through class identity, community, insane immersion, great storytelling, and lots of content/freedom. This is why it was successful for years. Many tried imitating WoW but all failed to grasp these concepts. Even WoW lacked things that could have made it better, but if the above factors in Ashes it will do very well.
After WoW you saw clones pop up left are right. The only one I actually played through was Star Wars The Old Republic. The story telling was great and having a fully voice acted game made it stand out big time. Yet this game fell into the traps I mentioned earlier. Once you hit max level and finish your story it becomes boring. You PvP in matches or raid, that's it. No open world events, pvp, sieges, monster events, nothing. It was a husk with so much missed potential.
Even the WoW devs lost sight of what mattered. They butchered their community and constantly put in features that drove players apart instead of bringing them together. It became the solo theme park it is today. Another husk with very little to offer. All these other companies followed suit thinking it's the only way to make a game. It's led to a decline in gaming in general and has made the MMO genre nothing but a risk in the eyes of delveopers.
I'm glad to see Ashes is taking a different approach. This is why I've backed the game and now offer my support. I've always wanted to make my own MMO and save this genre but I will never get to live out that dream. I figured maybe I can help Steven make his dream game.
While I don't agree with every decision in Ashes I still think the systems sound very effective. i look forward to seeing them in action and giving more detailed feedback. It's easy to disagree or mock something, but I believe in trying something before explaining why one feels it doesn't work. So that will be my approach. I also am seeing way more positive things in Ashes than negative. I will probably be starting a talk shot/podcast just to discuss this game in the future!
This has been my elaborated two cents from a gamer with 22+ years of MMO experience. I hope you find something useful in this wall of text.
-Spark
2
Comments
Welcome
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
Or in fuppos case just cookies.
While many people seem to be fixated on a good combat system no matter what the combat is like some will hate it and others will love it there is no perfect combat system for everyone. For many the combat is the only thing that matters, while I do agree is is very important personally I feel it should be no more important than the systems that make up the rest of the game.