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Meta KILLER!
Ixanthylus
Member
Seems the mantra in todays MMO scene is "There will always be a meta" If you listen close enough you can here the droning of a thousand jaded zombies repeating "there will always be a meta, there will always be a meta". But does that have to be true?
If you think over complicating gear and talents will do the trick, you're wrong.
The meta killer is.... Class, and Racial resistances and not being able to change specs at the drop of a hat to be more effective against another player(PVP) or a raid boss(PVE).
I remember a time in a certain MMO when what you went into the dungeon as was it, and if you wanted to re-spec you had to hearth, pay a fee, and get summoned back, or you were hoofin' it back. Otherwise your raid team had to live with the fact that the frost mages weren't going to be as effective as fire mages. It was cool, nothing wrong with that, we kept ourselves entertained.
I remember being in a battle ground and seeing a class/spec that had a resistance to DOTs or shadow damage coming at me and I'd have to get the hell out of dodge. It was fun, that guy was my nemesis for the battle ground and I watched out for him.
Homogenization kills the game, if everyone is equally effective against everything then who cares what you choose. Bring on the Meta.
AoC it's resistances that bring on diversity and that is what makes race/class/talent selection so much fun, when they actually mean something. PLEASE heed what I say. I say it because I love you and want this game to make my dreams come true.
Hit me up @Ixanthylus on Twitter
If you think over complicating gear and talents will do the trick, you're wrong.
The meta killer is.... Class, and Racial resistances and not being able to change specs at the drop of a hat to be more effective against another player(PVP) or a raid boss(PVE).
I remember a time in a certain MMO when what you went into the dungeon as was it, and if you wanted to re-spec you had to hearth, pay a fee, and get summoned back, or you were hoofin' it back. Otherwise your raid team had to live with the fact that the frost mages weren't going to be as effective as fire mages. It was cool, nothing wrong with that, we kept ourselves entertained.
I remember being in a battle ground and seeing a class/spec that had a resistance to DOTs or shadow damage coming at me and I'd have to get the hell out of dodge. It was fun, that guy was my nemesis for the battle ground and I watched out for him.
Homogenization kills the game, if everyone is equally effective against everything then who cares what you choose. Bring on the Meta.
AoC it's resistances that bring on diversity and that is what makes race/class/talent selection so much fun, when they actually mean something. PLEASE heed what I say. I say it because I love you and want this game to make my dreams come true.
Hit me up @Ixanthylus on Twitter
3
Comments
I don't have any sources, but my brain is telling me I saw it somewhere.
This is how rumours start, isn't it?
i have seen him say this somewhere as well.
I agree, it a breath of fresh air to have mmo where ur choices matter and you cant keep switching between classes on the go as if it was ur gender...
Tank and healer is meta. If any class, could do what they do, then maybe, you'd have less meta, but still at the root to meta.
The trick is; have as much viable variety as possible. (Ie. 64 classes, viable boss encounters, etc.). Then, perhaps, meta might be mitigated. But, then you'll have FotM.
In AoC, the only fixed "augments" are; Race and Primary Archtype (class). Everything else is flexible/changeable, as they can be respected (most likely). So, it'll take some time for the meta to really kick in.
So, until the FotM gets worked out, I don't see meta being an issue, for some time. 😁
There will always be a meta.
Without damage meters or other tools, it will be pretty hard to establish one.
Additionally: Armor is not class restricted and craftsmen can choose what stats get on what piece of gear.
A mage with a greatsword could be as good as a mage with a staff.
I myself plan to make my "own" meta.
Heavy armor, Bard, Tulnar, Halberd with extreme focus on a choice few spells/abilities.
@Damokles that's probably not true.
Content Creators will put up writen and video guies in no-time, which will establish the "meta". Whether they are correct or not doesn't matter. Popular streamers and youtubers will set the meta.
Meta is like death and taxes - always guaranteed.
Yes. Humans like optimizing things and dislike risks.
Most content creators dont go through the effort to make their "own" builds. They go for Icy-veins and take the first build they see. The people there make the builds and stat distributions with complex mathematics and dps meters.
A meta is something that lasts more then a few days to switch to another build. A meta wont exist for the first month. I could think that it will take more time then normal to establish on in Ashes, and please not that I never said anything about there NOT being a meta. I just said that it will be harder to establish one and that it will take time.
The meta of any game is driven by the content, and when it comes to PvE, the harder the content, the stricter the meta. Taking WoW as an example, if you are just doing open world stuff, or LFR or even normal raids, you can pretty much use whatever build you want and nobody will care. However, if you are looking to do mythic raiding, the fights are so tightly tuned that you NEED to follow the meta in order to succeed.
The problem occurs when players demand the meta for situations that don't really require it. I saw this a lot in GW2 raiding where the fights are a lot less tightly tuned than WoW's mythic raids, and yet groups were so strict when it came to the meta. If you weren't using the exact team comp that the meta demanded, you were kicked.
Looking at the PvP side, you only really need to play the meta at the higher levels of competitive gameplay where players are able to produce the most out of their characters, and every small scrap of advantage matters. That's why if you watch competitive League of Legends you will typically only see a very small selection of champions being picked. However, if you're playing in low level ranked matches, the meta is less important because the players there aren't using the champions to their full potential.
Open world PvX dungeons would break that system to pieces though right? If Augments and gear have enough impact on the field as they say they do then Meta wouldn't matter as much as team synergy and skill. Thinking on your feet when you need to counter an entire team trying to wipe you in the middle of a dungeon or at a boss fight will mean it will be detrimental to have a Meta PvE build or just a Meta PvP build, therefore it would be wise to play a class you actually enjoy that is effective in PvE while still being capable of handling a skirmish in the open world, not every single build will fit a Meta and sometimes people just won't even know how to counter an odd team synergy they aren't used to fighting at all. That's the dream anyways.
That certainly is the dream.
― Plato
― Plato
Even so, Meta will still be a thing, because even though you make every class valuable the same, some will be easier or harder to play. And meta is usually Strong-Easy>Strong-Hard. So Easiest class to play will be meta.
If you are into changing mankind then go for it. If you have no power people won't bother with you, if you have power you will be called dictator.
What is so wrong with allowing people play games the way they like them. If people love meta and follow it, then they will always create it.
― Plato
The absolute irony of you saying this makes me laugh. You are the most toxic person I've seen on this forum these past 3 years. You contribute nothing to discussions and insult others to simply make your self sound more important. When others are excited about something you crap on their ideas. You look for confrontation and seek confirmation. When I read your comments I imagine you cracking your knuckles and saying, "oh I'm going to make this dude cry”.
Just once I encourage you to discuss and not discourage. Because in the end you know you'll give IS your money and will be playing AoC right along side everyone you're making fun of.
I think of a meta as just the currently agreed most effective way to do something which could be to the detail of these classes with these skills and these items doing these things or just simply the meta is to run 3 tanks, 3 healers, 2 dps in this dungeon, so to me, there will be a meta pretty quickly which will change as people discover more.
Also with my understanding of a meta, I don't see why it would be an issue to have one.
My interpretation of a meta could be different to what most people think though.
While I oftentimes do not share his antagonistic approach he actually has a point here that relates to this thread - so please call him out in threads where he actually doesnt contribute towards the discussion. Almost all bad players are using these points(DPS meters, the "meta", leveling time, etc...) to make excuses for themselves instead of focusing on getting better. All I took from his post is the notion that people that hate on meters, meta and time investments are a lot of times just bad players trying to hide this fact from others and thus removing credibility for the points against those things.
Good players usually don't hate these things, because they use them to evaluate how they can do things better.
This of course doesnt mean that everybody that hates these things are bad players making excuses. There are a ton of examples of toxic abuse (meters, meta) that give the hate ground to be considered. It is a matter of weighing the pros and cons. So far the only pros for fighting/removing them I have seen are:
Meta and meters go hand in hand that is why i mention meters here as well, because even though meta is inevitable it is also defined by meters if they are available.
― Plato
Fair point on the call out where it should be. My main feelings towards this and other such threads are the concept of tribalistic views of "better players" "Good player" "Bad players". Why does me wanting to just play with little thought into my dps output make me a bad player? Wanting to add enhancements to a game in the form of increasing or highlighting performance will alienate individuals. Why/When did the MMORPG genre join the competitive play/esport scene?
It's ironic because I am a very competitive player by nature. I made a real good living doing it as a teen and in college but it was never in MMOs. Regardless if that is where the market and the future is heading for MMOs AoC has never given me the impression they want to be that way (except for Apocalypse...eww). The real issue is not Meta but people who use it as a tool to belittle, look down, or otherwise discredit other players who choose to play differently.
I've given this example on this forum, no idea how long ago, but in GW1 my buddy and I created a 55 monk. We were one of the originators. We did it for the lawls and we queued for PVP. We caught so much crap for it but we did surprisingly well. One week later it was the meta/flavor of the week. Now we didn't create the build but were part of it's rise to meta status. It was interesting to see that when we changed to something else we then were hit with insults for not playing a 55 monk.
Lastly, we all should have a good laugh that the OP created their account, posted this thread, named dropped their twitter and then duced out for 2 weeks w/o any more comments (at all not just here). Clearly we all are more passionate then they are about this topic and AoC
Well tbh when I read the OP post again it is kinda funny that he calls strict meta gaming a meta killer. When meta is excluding whole types of specs it is still a meta and as long as there are going to be respecs then people will mostly opt into builds that help them with things that they do
― Plato
lol right! TBH saw one of your posts about rogue and crits and was like "this dude get its". I'm just as guilty as looking up builds to get that number higher, but I will glass cannon the crap out of my character to get a higher crit even if the build is complete trash.
To your advantages comment let 'em have them. If I get one upped in pvp because of someone knowing their rotations better then most (due to meters, builds, or w/e else) right on is what I say. My dumb builds will for sure never make meta, and ill not even be considered in competitive raid clearing, but if I want to play some PUG dungeon i shouldn't have to constantly have to defend my self as being a "good player"
When the game treats players as disposable nameless thrash then the players take the same stance against each other and judge each other only by the dps placement. I highly doubt that you will need to defend average builds in Ashes
― Plato