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First person camera and hardcore PVP server ruleset and servers
Ixhixi
Member
Hey devs, really appreciate the work you guys are doing. The hybrid combat system looks awesome.
Recently the devs asked the community what the most immersion breaking factors exist in video games. Immersion is the most important part of any game for me, as well as exhilarating content which is usually brought about by having content which has consequences to player actions. Here are my the two largest immersion shattering things in my opinion:
1. Not being able to play games in first person properly when I want to feel even more immersed.
2. Playing games with little to no consequences to player choices and actions.
I have two requests for the game to address those issues, both these requests require little design effort for their implementation, and they both add huge benefit and replayability for the game, essentially offering entirely different playstyles with no fundamental changes to the game engine required to implement both features into the game.
Whilst many people are asking for 4K, my only two requests for the game which I consider vitally important to make the game feel more fun and for more longevity in content, are:
1. A first person camera mode where the players body and weapons are visible. It doesn't have to be like Elder Scrolls Online's first person mode, and I'm not suggesting inverse kinematics or full body tracking, just a first person mode as long as it doesn't make the players body invisible.(zooms in to the players head and looking around moves the player model head slightly)
Some solo modder managed to remove body invisibility due to camera clipping from being an issue when modding the camera to be in first person position, and made first person combat and camera with visible hands a possibility on the Witcher 3 in a mod.
If one modder can do this on their own, surely it shouldn't take more than a few days at most for a AAA studio to do the same if not better.
This is the mod I'm referring talking about. (disregarding the janky rolling, as there's no rolling mechanic in Ashes anyway)
https://youtu.be/5RLRVGTuPXo
Doing this would enable the game to run on Vorpx VR software and other flatscreen to VR emulation software like Tridef, and for such a simple camera feature the added benefit could bring intrepid studios a lot more attention in the years to come as it would allow the option for Ashes to have rudimentary VR compatibility as one of the first VRMMOs, as developers shift away from producing games for mobile devices since people don't like to play games on mobile devices due to controller issues and screen size, and AAA studios start to make more games for VR platforms. Abilities in any game can already be bound to vr controllers in vorpx as vorpx has VR controller keyboard emulation as a feature.
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2. My second suggestion that's worth making a post about is giving players the opportunity of playing on a hardcore PvP server ruleset where characters are deleted on death and PvP server ruleset where you lose your items on death and all zones are PvP enabled besides towns and starter zones on the PvP server.
It's possible to implement this by changing server rulesets without changing the games mechanics or engine. It also provides more thrilling and exhilarating content by giving players more player freedom and more choice and more serious consequences to their actions, a reason why Diablo 2 hardcore and runescape is still so popular today, especially the Deadman mode tournaments.
It also provides a way to cater to casual players, regular players, hardcore players, PVP players and PVE players all by just changing server rulesets.
It is important to note that achieving variation in playstyles like this is all possible just by changing server rulesets, and possibly reputation loss amounts and doesn't require fundamentally changing any underlying game mechanics (only changing server parameter values for different server types, such as which areas PvP is automatically enabled; what happens to player chatacters on death on each server type (e.g. item loss or character deletion); reputation loss amounts for pking; and damage, resistance and HP values of non instanced monsters in the game world.)
I'd also like to see regular monsters in the game world all replaced with stronger elite mobs in the game world on such HC-PVP servers, encouraging group play to beat normal monsters in the game world unless you're a particularly skilled solo player looking for a Dark Souls like challenge (instead of mobs in the world being so easy that all the content is a faceroll), really making you question and prepare before you engage in a fight outside a town, and incentivising players to looking to form or join a guild or a player group before leaving town. Incentivising group play is always a bonus. (Which again disincentivises solo PKing abuse)
It's possible to have rare items like resurrection vials which prevent character deletion and only appear on hardcore PvP servers, having regard to blood money in Deadman mode on runescape which is a Deadman mode exclusive item.
I would strongly advise against making ressurection vials a cash shop purchase item, instead making them a very rare legendary item only ordinarily obtainable in the game world, however a one off fundraiser where people could buy 1-3 vials for $100 each to promote hardcore server mechanics could be an idea
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Final comment:
I've played mmos for years, and most end up feeling boring where you end up questioning why the hell am I even doing this and what's the point of playing? Interaction with game worldd often feel pointless when there are no consequences to actions, which is a common theme now in most MMOS as AAA studios design content to cater to casuals (and that's fine, on a PVE server), but as a result most MMO games core gameplay mechanics made by AAA studios have been babied down to cater to casuals way too much. (It's like playing a game where instead of autosaving all the time, it makes a perpetual save every 2 minutes removing all consequence from the game).
Runescape had really good questing implementation similar to Skyrim where quests are actually engaging and interesting and not boring monotonous kill X amount of boar tasks, but games like Skyrim and WoW are detaching and not as realistic, not as immersive, not as exciting or nerve wracking, and it's not as enjoyable playing games which feels like there's no consequences to player actions like Skyrim or WoW in its native implementation is like. (Deadman mode Runescape and Diablo 2's hardcore modes are the complete opposite of this and are popular to this day for that sole reason)
The more serious the consequences such as character deletion, it can have serious repercussions like not being able to interact with society by elevated reputation loss for player killing and guards becoming aggressive as a result, or players having to stick together and screen prospective guild members as imposter assassins before letting them join, disincentivising PKing and PKing abuse by making consequences for it as extreme as dying.
To prevent abuse of PKing mechanics by high levels or PKing clans, a strict level limit could be implemented making it impossible for players to attack other players more than 3 levels outside of their own level range (3 levels higher or lower), and the option to hide your player combat level and prevent item inspection, and those 3 measures would each disincentivise PVPers attacking lower level targets and reduce PKing abuse in general, if PVPers were unsure of a potential targets level which increases the risk to combat engagement exponentially.
Among Us's popularity proves that people love that drama and deductive reasoning in their gameplay, and such mechanics promote group play and guild formation.
Recently the devs asked the community what the most immersion breaking factors exist in video games. Immersion is the most important part of any game for me, as well as exhilarating content which is usually brought about by having content which has consequences to player actions. Here are my the two largest immersion shattering things in my opinion:
1. Not being able to play games in first person properly when I want to feel even more immersed.
2. Playing games with little to no consequences to player choices and actions.
I have two requests for the game to address those issues, both these requests require little design effort for their implementation, and they both add huge benefit and replayability for the game, essentially offering entirely different playstyles with no fundamental changes to the game engine required to implement both features into the game.
Whilst many people are asking for 4K, my only two requests for the game which I consider vitally important to make the game feel more fun and for more longevity in content, are:
1. A first person camera mode where the players body and weapons are visible. It doesn't have to be like Elder Scrolls Online's first person mode, and I'm not suggesting inverse kinematics or full body tracking, just a first person mode as long as it doesn't make the players body invisible.(zooms in to the players head and looking around moves the player model head slightly)
Some solo modder managed to remove body invisibility due to camera clipping from being an issue when modding the camera to be in first person position, and made first person combat and camera with visible hands a possibility on the Witcher 3 in a mod.
If one modder can do this on their own, surely it shouldn't take more than a few days at most for a AAA studio to do the same if not better.
This is the mod I'm referring talking about. (disregarding the janky rolling, as there's no rolling mechanic in Ashes anyway)
https://youtu.be/5RLRVGTuPXoDoing this would enable the game to run on Vorpx VR software and other flatscreen to VR emulation software like Tridef, and for such a simple camera feature the added benefit could bring intrepid studios a lot more attention in the years to come as it would allow the option for Ashes to have rudimentary VR compatibility as one of the first VRMMOs, as developers shift away from producing games for mobile devices since people don't like to play games on mobile devices due to controller issues and screen size, and AAA studios start to make more games for VR platforms. Abilities in any game can already be bound to vr controllers in vorpx as vorpx has VR controller keyboard emulation as a feature.
----
2. My second suggestion that's worth making a post about is giving players the opportunity of playing on a hardcore PvP server ruleset where characters are deleted on death and PvP server ruleset where you lose your items on death and all zones are PvP enabled besides towns and starter zones on the PvP server.
It's possible to implement this by changing server rulesets without changing the games mechanics or engine. It also provides more thrilling and exhilarating content by giving players more player freedom and more choice and more serious consequences to their actions, a reason why Diablo 2 hardcore and runescape is still so popular today, especially the Deadman mode tournaments.
It also provides a way to cater to casual players, regular players, hardcore players, PVP players and PVE players all by just changing server rulesets.
It is important to note that achieving variation in playstyles like this is all possible just by changing server rulesets, and possibly reputation loss amounts and doesn't require fundamentally changing any underlying game mechanics (only changing server parameter values for different server types, such as which areas PvP is automatically enabled; what happens to player chatacters on death on each server type (e.g. item loss or character deletion); reputation loss amounts for pking; and damage, resistance and HP values of non instanced monsters in the game world.)
I'd also like to see regular monsters in the game world all replaced with stronger elite mobs in the game world on such HC-PVP servers, encouraging group play to beat normal monsters in the game world unless you're a particularly skilled solo player looking for a Dark Souls like challenge (instead of mobs in the world being so easy that all the content is a faceroll), really making you question and prepare before you engage in a fight outside a town, and incentivising players to looking to form or join a guild or a player group before leaving town. Incentivising group play is always a bonus. (Which again disincentivises solo PKing abuse)
It's possible to have rare items like resurrection vials which prevent character deletion and only appear on hardcore PvP servers, having regard to blood money in Deadman mode on runescape which is a Deadman mode exclusive item.
I would strongly advise against making ressurection vials a cash shop purchase item, instead making them a very rare legendary item only ordinarily obtainable in the game world, however a one off fundraiser where people could buy 1-3 vials for $100 each to promote hardcore server mechanics could be an idea
----
Final comment:
I've played mmos for years, and most end up feeling boring where you end up questioning why the hell am I even doing this and what's the point of playing? Interaction with game worldd often feel pointless when there are no consequences to actions, which is a common theme now in most MMOS as AAA studios design content to cater to casuals (and that's fine, on a PVE server), but as a result most MMO games core gameplay mechanics made by AAA studios have been babied down to cater to casuals way too much. (It's like playing a game where instead of autosaving all the time, it makes a perpetual save every 2 minutes removing all consequence from the game).
Runescape had really good questing implementation similar to Skyrim where quests are actually engaging and interesting and not boring monotonous kill X amount of boar tasks, but games like Skyrim and WoW are detaching and not as realistic, not as immersive, not as exciting or nerve wracking, and it's not as enjoyable playing games which feels like there's no consequences to player actions like Skyrim or WoW in its native implementation is like. (Deadman mode Runescape and Diablo 2's hardcore modes are the complete opposite of this and are popular to this day for that sole reason)
The more serious the consequences such as character deletion, it can have serious repercussions like not being able to interact with society by elevated reputation loss for player killing and guards becoming aggressive as a result, or players having to stick together and screen prospective guild members as imposter assassins before letting them join, disincentivising PKing and PKing abuse by making consequences for it as extreme as dying.
To prevent abuse of PKing mechanics by high levels or PKing clans, a strict level limit could be implemented making it impossible for players to attack other players more than 3 levels outside of their own level range (3 levels higher or lower), and the option to hide your player combat level and prevent item inspection, and those 3 measures would each disincentivise PVPers attacking lower level targets and reduce PKing abuse in general, if PVPers were unsure of a potential targets level which increases the risk to combat engagement exponentially.
Among Us's popularity proves that people love that drama and deductive reasoning in their gameplay, and such mechanics promote group play and guild formation.
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Comments
It's certainly an interesting idea, and worth pursuing if there would be enough interest to make a good server population.
If you read my post properly you'd see I wasn't asking for anything like Elder Scrolls online first person camera mechanics, just the option to zoom into the players head and not have an invisible body when doing so.
Some solo modder managed to remove body invisibility due to camera clipping from being an issue when modding the camera to be in first person position, and made first person combat and camera with visible hands a possibility on the Witcher 3 in a mod.
If one modder can do this on their own, surely it shouldn't take more than a few days at most for a AAA studio to do the same if not better.
This is the mod I'm referring talking about. (disregarding the janky rolling, as there's no rolling mechanic in Ashes anyway)
Also, that mod video is by far one of the worst things I have ever seen in my life. What a disservice to Geralt.
And as for the video it's pretty good actually, if you can look past the rolling, and I agree with OP those camera tricks shouldn't be a problem in Ashes as it doesn't have rolling mechanics.
As for the hardcore PvP server, I don't think many people will be up for that. Perma-death is one of those mechanics that sounds great in theory but when you actually have it, it sucks. Granted there are a few people who will truly relish it and enjoy that kind of thing, but not enough to fill an entire server. What's the point in having a hardcore PvP server if the population is so low that you never get to fight anyone?
The players who truly understand what it means to have perma-death and do want it can put self-imposed rules in place if they want to, but segregating the playerbase to the extent you are suggesting just won't work in my opinion.
MMORPGs evolved away from item and level loss (death penalty), because losing a months work (gaining levels and gear) is not fun, for anyone. Reason for the "death debt" feature AoC is offering.
AoC is a MMORPG, not a FPS. But, they are "trying" to meld some features of both. 😁
As to "zooming" your camera. I am more concerned about the camera zooming out to far, making AoC more like an isometric 3d game (Diablo). But, we all know; first person does not give you peripheral vision. So both are needed.
PvP only servers will probably not happen. If Intrepid had their way, the game would be full on PvP. But, they realise there are times people want to opt out of PvP, hence the Corruption system. Why make a system, just to invalidate it?
There surely needs to be systems to prevent PvP mechanic abuse and higher to lower level banking on permadeath servers, but that can be done pretty easily just by changing server rules and not fundamentally changing game engine or any mechanics.(like how much reputation is lost when killing players, or what happens to players on player death, hiding player combat levels, only allowing attacking in a level range of + or - 3 levels, preventing gear inspection, having faction guards become hostile to you for repeated PKing)
All those systems prevent PKing abuse from guilds and individuals, but the games which have the greatest levels of player freedom as well as severe consequences for severe actions are the most realistic, immersive and exhilarating in my experience. Permadeath servers also encourage group play and guild play, to prevent that happening, and I daresay there would be a lot more guilds who would want to stay alive and work together compared to PKing guilds.
OP put it really well in the second and third last paragraphs, but the rest of his post is spot on. I agree games with no consequences to player actions and games which have limited player choice to create safe spaces aren't fun, they don't feel realistic and it feels pointless playing those games a lot of the time when there's little to no consequences to player actions and choices, it just makes games feel boring.
"The more serious the consequences such as character deletion, it can have serious repercussions like not being able to interact with society by elevated reputation loss for player killing and guards becoming aggressive as a result, or players having to stick together and screen prospective guild members as imposter assassins before letting them join, disincentivising PKing and PKing abuse by making consequences for it as extreme as dying.
To prevent abuse of PKing mechanics by high levels or PKing clans, a strict level limit could be implemented making it impossible for players to attack other players more than 3 levels outside of their own level range (3 levels higher or lower), and the option to hide your player combat level and prevent item inspection, and those 3 measures would each disincentivise PVPers attacking lower level targets and reduce PKing abuse in general, if PVPers were unsure of a potential targets level which increases the risk to combat engagement exponentially.
Among Us's popularity proves that people love that drama and deductive reasoning in their gameplay, and such mechanics promote group play and guild formation."
If you put in a perma-death server into Ashes, the majority of players who try it will likely die a couple of times and then realise that there's no point in restarting again because they are already too far behind the out-runners, and then quit.
That's a really good point. I feel like even a seasonal server permadeath tournament would be a great idea though and those players that die could have their characters transferred to a regular server.
The idea of limiting player attack level range to 3 above or below levels, preventing gear inspection, and hiding player combat levels is to curb, or at least severely reduce higher levelled players ganking lower level players and to eliminate or severely reduce PKing guilds ganking lower levelled players by making it far more risky.
Player attack level limit ranges on combat levels could even just be limited to players only being allowed to initiate combat with other players of the same level and 3 levels above, eradicating and preventing higher levelled players ganking lower levelled players entirely and preventing all abuse of the PKing system such as higher level players spawn camping new players, unless a lower levelled player wants to take the risk and engage a player potentially up to 3 combat levels higher than them.
The strong penalties and consequences for PKing would disincentivise abuse, such as loss of ability to interact with faction and bounty hunting systems, which makes ganking by higher level individuals and guilds not a problem and "falling behind", then ceases to be an issue in terms of new players who start after the permadeath server starts.