Will I be banned for a community based in-game 'input' gambling.

Lord Newbon

I am planning on making my own Community based buy in lottery system (because i plan on no-lifeing the game). Like an International Lottery, with medium pay in's so new people can opt-in and big pay out's. But with the server monitoring, (which Steven has noted about while on a Twitch Interview). Which on that basis, would notice I am getting an influx of money from sources that are not NPC quests and Materials. Would I be banned for such activity or will it be based on a deeper search on things like that and not just be a flat ban?

daveywavey

It sounded to me like their system would run checks for large cash transfers, but that they would investigate the situation themselves based on those checks.

Wandering Mist

DISCLAIMER - I don't know anything about how the security and monitoring systems will work. This is just my own personal opinion on how they MIGHT work, based on my own previous experience.

I'm willing to bet that the security monitoring system won't straight up ban a user on sight, but rather flag them for the in-game GMs to investigate. Depending on the situation they may temporarily suspend the accounts in question until they can pin down how and where the money came from and if RMT was involved.

As for the whole gambling thing, assuming the game has a teen rating (which it probably will) then it can include "simulated gambling" which is essentially gambling using in-game currency rather than real world money, so in theory it should be fine.

But of course, gambling in games is a pretty touchy topic right now so that all might change between now and the game release.

Lord Newbon

Okay thank you for the information. They were all going to be in game. And ONLY using in game currencies or Material/Weapon payouts. I will wait until near Beta/Full game release to see if there is any more relative information regarding this.

Dargour

Like what Mist pointed out, I believe that you'll be perfectly fine as long as you ONLY use in game currency for transactions. If this is a thing that happens and doesn't get any player involved flagged and in trouble, I'd be interested in seeing this system of yours in action and perhaps getting involved myself. Sounds like a fun time for all the in game millionaires/billionaires.

Lord Newbon

That is great to hear!! . Naturally based on a few things will determine the whole thing. Like, the currency for example if there is a Bronze, Sliver and then Gold or just Gold on its own as the currency. Then gold income and ease at which the player earns gold will determine the starting input amounts. Because for the first few weeks, I expect, Not many people will be able to put in to much money. But after a few months to understand the gold income increase. I am positively sure it will be great for high Inputs for crazy Outputs like 100,000 gold for 5,000,000 Gold payouts and stuff like that. I am thinking at the start, because new people will be jumping in there will be an input of around 100 Gold (Based on : if it is the only currency) and then have them pick 5 numbers between 1-99. then if they get 3 numbers they get 500 Gold, if they get 4 numbers they get 1,500 if they get all 5 they get 5,000 gold. (As it stands, it is very dynamic on the basis of the game. and Rules. but I really want to do it. I also have a semi-functional system to do it so the more information that comes out regarding the rules I will build on it).

Dargour

Sounds like a good start to it. Good luck to the start of that as I know it'll be hard to get people to invest and stay investing when they inevitably lose. Can't wait to see the gambling tavern in a city near me lol

Lord Newbon

Thank you! , I really can't wait to try it if I can. I feel even if they do not come back (which is expected for some people) or if it fails at least I have given myself a great leap/gateway into the new community of Ashes of Creation and the potential to meet new people and quest with them .

FuryBladeborne

FYI: Gambling in RPG's may be illegal or become illegal within a few years.
The general requirements to qualify as gambling and be subject to gambling laws are:

1. Consideration, which means you have to pay something to play.
2. Chance, which means there has to be something outside your control that determines the outcome of the game.
3. And a prize. And of course, a prize is something, anything of value. The prize does not have to be money.

One of the ways that gambling in gaming is currently being worked out is over loot boxes. As this resolves, we will find out what we risk by running illegal gambling in an RPG.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/19/16783136/loot-boxes-video-games-gambling-legal

Voidwalkers

Speaking of in-game gambling ...

Since Ashes will have animal husbandry, I'm hoping there will also be \o/ mount racing \o/ events, either player held or implemented as a system (e.g. add a race track & race club to high level economic or military node), so artisans have one more reason to breed for the fastest mount

And along the same line, a betting-enabled pet-battle-arena might also be nice

Lord Newbon

I am Falling within the those guideline am I not by doing a Lottery which by using the =RandBetween system gives a random number, if i set the parameters of the Rand to give me number between 1-99, i wont be picking them then. I wont strong arm anyone into playing i will simply ask people while in ton centers in chat if they want to and I said that I would

Lord Newbon wrote: »

ONLY using in game currencies or Material/Weapon payouts. .

. I will keep my eye on the laws until the release. And I will have to come up with some other means to have fun in my own way lul. Also the animal husbandry will be great fun if you can do mount racing and stuff like that, would also give an extra part of the market to people who do not want to be on the right side of the law in game all the time. (like I want my second character to be a corrupted, would be cool if I could be in line with the character lore wise so I can do underground dealings and stuff. instead of just having to be a savior good hero all the time.)

Irohnic

regardless of laws I personally believe in-game gambling should be 18+ gated (ie. accounts need to be verified to be 18+, and only those accounts would have access to gambling features). It's just too addictive of a behavior to give easy access to kids IMO.

As for your lottery idea, I don't think it should be allowed unless all randomization occurs and is trackable in game. if it's some external website where people sign up and you generate the winner I think it would be too easy to use to disguise real money transfers. If it's in-game randomization then when a GM is ineveitably flagged to look at the transfer, they can check that the money was actually given to a random player and not just some gold buyer that the organizer claims is a random winner.

Wandering Mist

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

FYI: Gambling in RPG's may be illegal or become illegal within a few years.
The general requirements to qualify as gambling and be subject to gambling laws are:

1. Consideration, which means you have to pay something to play.
2. Chance, which means there has to be something outside your control that determines the outcome of the game.
3. And a prize. And of course, a prize is something, anything of value. The prize does not have to be money.

One of the ways that gambling in gaming is currently being worked out is over loot boxes. As this resolves, we will find out what we risk by running illegal gambling in an RPG.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/19/16783136/loot-boxes-video-games-gambling-legal

The only way Gambling will be made illegal in the game itself is if the ESRB ratings were changed, because right now (as I said in my previous post), "simulated gambling", which is gambling for in-game items/currency rather than real world currency, is perfectly fine in a Teen Rated Game. So right now, you could have a full-blown Poker game in Ashes and it would be fine as long as you could only wager in-game currency.

The issue with loot boxes is entirely different, because there is real world money involved. If you pay real world money for a loot box, that is "real gambling" rather than "simulated gambling". In order for a game to have "real gambling" in it, you need to have an 18+ rating, which naturally the game companies don't want because they will get less sales from it.

Basically this means that if loot boxes are confirmed as real gambling (which they should be in my opinion), then companies like EA and Activision and Ubisoft have 2 choices - Get rid of the loot boxes, or get an 18+ rating for all games that have them.

Now of course, if the ESRB changed their rating system so that Teen rated games cannot include any kind of gambling (simulated or otherwise) then the OP might well be in trouble.

FuryBladeborne

Lord Newbon wrote: »

I am Falling within the those guideline am I not by doing a Lottery which by using the =RandBetween system gives a random number, if i set the parameters of the Rand to give me number between 1-99, i wont be picking them then. I wont strong arm anyone into playing i will simply ask people while in ton centers in chat if they want to and I said that I would

Lord Newbon wrote: »

ONLY using in game currencies or Material/Weapon payouts. .

. I will keep my eye on the laws until the release. And I will have to come up with some other means to have fun in my own way lul. Also the animal husbandry will be great fun if you can do mount racing and stuff like that, would also give an extra part of the market to people who do not want to be on the right side of the law in game all the time. (like I want my second character to be a corrupted, would be cool if I could be in line with the character lore wise so I can do underground dealings and stuff. instead of just having to be a savior good hero all the time.)

Yes, falling within those guidelines as you do qualifies as gambling. Qualifying in gambling in video games may become illegal before long. Just something to keep an eye on.

I would think that only gambling for in game currencies, materials, or weapons will help you; although, if such items can be sold online for cash I could see the possibility of counting them as real world cash equivalents.

Wandering Mist wrote: »

The only way Gambling will be made illegal in the game itself is if the ESRB ratings were changed, because right now (as I said in my previous post), "simulated gambling", which is gambling for in-game items/currency rather than real world currency, is perfectly fine in a Teen Rated Game. So right now, you could have a full-blown Poker game in Ashes and it would be fine as long as you could only wager in-game currency.

Now of course, if the ESRB changed their rating system so that Teen rated games cannot include any kind of gambling (simulated or otherwise) then the OP might well be in trouble.

I agree that you are currently correct and quite possibly correct long term. However, game items in many games can be sold online and could be viewed as a proxy for cash. Poker chips have no value until essentially sold to the casino.

I just think that it is something that a person who wants to run an in game casino should be aware of rather than totally ignore. Ashes is probably a couple years away from release and relevant laws may have had some significant changes by then given current cases.

TSG

Lord Newbon wrote: »

I am planning on making my own Community based buy in lottery system (because i plan on no-lifeing the game). Like an International Lottery, with medium pay in's so new people can opt-in and big pay out's. But with the server monitoring, (which Steven has noted about while on a Twitch Interview). Which on that basis, would notice I am getting an influx of money from sources that are not NPC quests and Materials. Would I be banned for such activity or will it be based on a deeper search on things like that and not just be a flat ban?

Every time I see players try to do this it inevitably leads to large guilds forming and eventually turning the odds more and more in the guilds favor. Often time these activities also lead to scamming, and can be especially harmful to those that are pre-disposed to addictive behaviors. Do I think the devs need to hand hold every single player? No, I do not. But this type of activity only serves to enrich the hosts of these activities while preying on the vulnerable. There really isn't any true benefit from this type of stuff.

There is a reason games like Runescape outright banned these types of activities.

daveywavey

What's to stop someone dropping a wad of RL cash in your bank account, and then them just happening to win the big in-game cash prize? Not saying that's what you yourself will be doing, but it opens up a potential exploit.

AntVictus

daveywavey wrote: »

What's to stop someone dropping a wad of RL cash in your bank account, and then them just happening to win the big in-game cash prize? Not saying that's what you yourself will be doing, but it opens up a potential exploit.

once again it is going to be monitored. In the event of RMT there is a list of procedure for it. It will get handled.

Noaani

As has been pointed out, the OP's idea is currently probably mostly legal (a lawyer helped me with that phrasing).

However, there are a number of bodies (notably but not exclusively the EU) that are currently debating rewriting their laws around all forms of online gambling.

One of the things being looked at is if it is possible to turn real money in to the currency being gambled, even if via a black or gray market, and via a third party.

The reasons for this are obvious, in that gambling any token that can be transferred to money is materially the same as gambling money. It wouldn't be hard for someone in the position the OP wants to be in to then sell in game gold on a third party website, making the whole thing an actual gambling ring abusing a legal loophole

These rewrites are likely to take years, so the OP is likely still probably mostly fine. There will just be things they would need to keep an eye on - just because they are within the law today, doesn't mean that will be the case always.

Caeryl

Currently it's not illegal, but I definitely wouldn't want to dive headfirst into that can of worms. Maybe bets for races or other events, but just a random lotto? Sounds sketchy as hell

Nerror

I get the desire to hold a lottery. It's easy money, and the house always wins by design.

Now, I don't really have a problem with lotteries in general, as long as the people in charge are open, fair about the odds and their own profits, and, most importantly, are accountable to the law.

Unless the lottery system is 100% designed to run ingame only, where the money are deposited in an untouchable bank, and the winners are selected by the game itself, I don't trust anyone to run a lottery in AOC. There are so many ways to cheat and scam if left to the players, and I don't want to see it in the game at all, unless it's fully supported by Intrepid and run through ingame systems only.

Mahes

Here is my take.

They have stated that Mod programs will not be allowed for this game. It is actually one of the things I agree with as I hated how players felt obligated to download mods from other sources just to feel competitive(Worlds of Warcraft). They want players to play the game as designed. They do not want players to download programs that make events easier than what was designed.

If a gambling system is going to be put in, then I imagine they will place one. Allowing for this kind of behavior opens up a couple of problems similar to how allowing Mods can burden and take away from the enjoyment of the actual game.

One problem is that for every honest player, there will be dishonest ones that attempt to take advantage of the situation. I would love to think that every player who plays this game will be honest folk, but that is not realistic at all. There will be players who play this game simply for real life financial gain.

The other problem, and the problem that more effects me, is that I cannot stand the chat spam of these gambling services. I hate advertising in all its forms and especially in a game that I want to be able to relax in and enjoy.

There are many ways to make gold in this game. I do not like the ways that can involve irritating factors such as chat spam and not so honest folk. It would be simpler just to not allow the process.

Nerror

Good point about the chat spam. That alone is enough that I never want to see it ingame, actually.