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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Class Changes
DatLamp
Member
From what I can gather, it would seem as though the way to change subclasses is to go through a process of unknown time to be able to change to a different class. While the idea of the process seems good, one thing that may be beneficial in the long run is to make the change back quicker. For example, I'm playing a Tank/Mage for the benefits in pvp. I want to go raid now. I do a quest that is 3 hours to change to Tank/Tank then I can go raid optimally. I want to go back to pvp. I do a similar quest, back to Tank/Mage, another 3 hours and I'm pvping again. The only thing I may recommend is that once you have already done the sub-class quest once, changing between classes might not want to seem like a chore in order to play optimally. I'm not recommending at-will changes anywhere in the world but maybe just revisit the subclass quest-giver again to change back.
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Comments
Heh, ok. Probably best to wait and see what the actual implementation is before getting ahead of ourselves!
The point of having it a long process is so it's hard to change so you are encouraged to stick with one class.
If you make the process a one-time thing then that changes it into an unlock mechanic that people have to do before they have access to all their class variations.
If there was a way to do both I would choose that instead. I don't think you should have to repeat a questline you have already done to get an archetype after the first time doing it. But how do we make the archetype choice meaningful if there is no extensive cost to changing it? putting a gold value doesn't do anything and a pure time-gate seems lame. Idk how to solve this issue.
Potential idea: What if instead of the same questline to unlock it, you get a lesser quest that you do to basically redeem yourself in that archetype trainer's eyes. So a cleric would have to go and heal/resurrect x amount of combatants and a ranger would have to hunt down x goblin poachers. Very rough idea but this should take at least half the time needed in the initial quest used to unlock the archetype.
The ability to change secondary class isn't really meant to facilitate people playing optimally like this; it sound like more of a 'hmm after some testing maybe I made the wrong choice and want to change' option.
It's an RPG after all, character shouldn't be able to change class just to do everything well. We should have to work with the strengths and weaknesses of the class we choose imho.
Since this is something that will be essentially required later on, this is just a potential fix. I do also like the Because you would need to do new(ish) content rather than the same quest over and over to change between.
So, in WoW I'd support what you're saying b/c WoW's raids and PvP was designed w/ the expectation that you'd frequently be swapping back and forth. Now we have Shadowlands that hard goes against that and it feels miserable in the context of that game.
However, Ashes isn't WoW and top guilds will know better than most that changing your secondary just isn't a viable option and there's no LFG so they'll need to get used to working w/ the people they have on hand. WoW's LFG is the primary reason you can get kicked from a guild/group if you're not playing a Meta spec b/c it makes it incredibly easy to replace you...and that won't be true in AoC.
To summarize, in a game built from the ground up w/ natural time gates on your class (takes a long time to level, long quest to change secondaries, gear is always in constant demand, etc) and w/ natural gates on min-maxing your party/raid due to no LFG and massive distances required to travel, we'll have to rely far more on mechanical skill than meta picks and guilds need to get used to that.
A: if you just occasionally PvP, the you will be nowhere close to the rating where your specc actually matters in a Arena setting.
B: Instanced raiding and battlegrounds aren't really a thing. It's a PvX game. You want the ability to pvp in a purely pve setting or you most likely won't even get to kill the boss.
C: The class choice should matter for that exact reason. Not everybody should be able to do everything at every time at equivalent proficiency. This is not a themepark MMO. This never will be a themepark MMO. Stop trying to apply things that would make sense for games like WoW/FFXIV to Ashes. They are inherently different.
It's designed to be a meaningful choice. It's designed to be something you can't do on the fly. If a hardcore player feels like its necessary to waste 2-3 hours to deal the 2% additional DPS on the boss, then he should have to jump through the hoopes to do so.
And I will never be able to get to that rating ever if I have to jump through insane hoops to get there. Just due to practical constraints of how many hours there are in a day. Having an entire section of game gated behind doing the same boring content over and over again to just switch and switch back between the actual good content is just lame.
What does this even mean? There will still be instanced raids and bgs are confirmed? Even if other players are there your worse pve spec should still be good enough to hold off against random people trying to gank you but it probably wouldn't hold as well in an arena setting.
I completely agree. The class choice should matter. So don't even give an option to change your subclass. It should be a meaningful choice. But if there is going to be the ability to change then why just make it tedious and unnecessarily boring just to gate the actual content behind a time-sink?
Secondly, are games like WoW and Ashes inherently different? Steven even refers to the game as a "themebox" mmo which implies a 50/50 split while WoW seems more like a 75/25 split towards themepark. They both have systems that would overlap even if Ashes has different or better systems in some cases, needing to waste time on a quest you have already done to switch classes seems like a worse system than its counterpart in WoW.
Why should a hardcore player need to decide between wasting 3 hours or objectively being worse at the game? That's just taking agency away from the individual for no net benefit on game health.
TL;DR If you truly believe that it is a meaningful decision, then there shouldn't be a way to change it after making the decision OR you can only change it once. If you can change between them freely but you need to do a time-sink, there is no good reason reason to make it a huge time-sink after the initial one.
Arenas, BGs, Guild Wars, Sieges, caravans ganks, and pretty much every form of PvP goes towards a PvP rating that is calculated at the end of six months. These rewards include achievements, titles, cosmetics and gear enhancements. No gear. You will be working on your PvP rating every single day almost just by going out and playing the game because you will be PvPing often.
@Warth is right. This is a PvX open world game and instances aren't going to play a large role in this game at all. There will be very little or probably none at all of instanced raids that drop gear. Arenas wont give gear, neither will BGs. Any gear will be crafted or dropped in the open world. Players will have to fight over world bosses. "Raiding" guilds like from WoW will have an incredibly hard time with this game being a raiding only guild. There will be barely any instancing, and the instancing there is will be related to lore/story quests most likely.
Like you wouldn't believe.
This doesn't address the idea that there will be some subclasses that are more optimal for pvp than others. If you wish to participate in a node siege one day, you must do a time sink to switch then a time sink to switch back; or just play sub-optimally. Why is that a necessary choice?
Steven said 80% of a dungeon will be open world the other 20% instanced unless I misunderstood what he meant, why would the boss not be the 20% that is instanced? Even if I am mistaken and there are 0 instanced loot fights its unrealistic to believe that every time a guild gets on to do a raid that the will get counter raided by pvpers. The map scale and player-count ensure a certain level of safety in that regard.
Press "X" to doubt.
I don't think you know what inherently means. They are both mmorpgs with open world pvp. They both have raids, arenas, bgs, crafting, grinding, everything that entails in a mmo. Ashes is more open world with more player influence when it comes to the world itself. The main difference is in their systems. Ashes puts more reliance on different systems than WoW and for the most part improves on the systems that it shares. However, this is a system that it shares with WoW that it makes worse. If you want the choice to be meaningful then make it unchangeable. If it can be changed don't make it annoying to do so. WoW does this better in this regard by making it relatively easier to change specs for different content. Its being changed for Shadowlands and people hate it because its an arbitrary time sink that doesn't add anything to the game. Its literally wait x time to get a change. Why? MeAnInGfUl ChOiCeS?!?! A time sink for changing specs for the actual content is NOT content.
What do you think about the following idea:
What if one (or 2 ) of the perks, that guilds could unlock was the perk, that their guild members need 25% (or 50%) less effort to change their Subclass.
Guilds that go for mass instead wouldn't be able to get this perk.
Small PvX guilds with rosters of 30-80 members are more likely to need respeccing compared to a guild of 300 members, that have a pvp and pve subsection of players. So it would make sense from that point of view.
This wouls be a valuable perk for players in small guilds without directly impacting the balance within the fight.
They plan the instanced dungeons and raids to be primariely for undisturbed Lore/Story delivery.
you seem to have a very basic understanding of what Ashes is gling to be. Inherently different is correct way of describing it. Ashes is closer to Eve in a fantasy setting rather than WoW
Crafting, Open World PvP, the economy and depth of the class design are a poor joke in WoW.
BGs and Raids are inherently different as neither of them is primarily instanced
Yeah so I could see instancing possibly playing out in room lockout mechanics or something like that as far as bosses are concerned. A situation where you would activate a crystal or something of the sorts, have 20 minutes of defending the crystal from other guilds while it activates, then you are able to port inside the boss room, anybody is able to follow you inside for 5-10 minutes and PvP you to challenge the boss. Then after all of that the room would be locked out and the winners could fight the boss. A huge majority of the bosses in this game will be open world however.
I highly highly doubt there will be any instanced WoW styled raids where you can safely stay inside and get gear without being threatened by other players. This would go against the entire vision of the game just like ARENA/BG gear would. You will probably have to do a lot of PvP in this game to be successful unless your guild is diplomatically savvy. PvPing other guilds for control of world bosses, other players/guilds to move caravans around to craft gear, at dungeons to defend your grind spot, etc.
There is a possibility your guild would be "Counter raided by PvPers" at mostly everything you will be doing and this is working as intended, Pure PvErs/raiders will have a hard time in Ashes which is why I said that whether you doubt it or not I can assure you that you can take it to the bank.
If you truly want it to be a meaningful choice then don't allow for it to be changed. If it can be changed don't make the change be annoying to perform. Why is this a hot take?
I'd be all for limiting the swap to once every month or every 2 weeks. Same to citizenship
Your PvP and PvE builds will likely be very similar.