I'm not saying what you propose isn't unexecuteable if they so choose. It just seems that you are determined for them to build the mana stat to recreate something from another game rather than build the classes first and then encounters based on what is possible from that.
The decision to have a set mana pool is not something you make while designing and iterating a class. It is a decision you make for a whole game, and then you design classes based on that.
How mana was designed like in EQ2 facilitated it's use in that fight not the other way around.
This is true, and I have not said otherwise.
I am not saying that mechanic would fit in to Ashes. I wouldn't want Intrepid to even attempt to implement it until the game is a few years old (it is a tough mechanic to pull off, players and developers need to understand the game).
What I am saying -for about the tenth time - is if you put a hard cap on mana pools, you take options away from both players and developers.
I asked you this in my previous post, and I will ask it again. Name one thing that is possible in a game with set mana pools that is not also possible in games with variable mana pools. If you can't name something, then it is obviously a bad design decision as all it does is remove options from players and developers.
It's not what's possible, it's how it allows the game to be tuned and balanced. As gear gets better and you get more mana, that eventually hits a break point where mana gets to a point that oom potential is low and skill management means nothing because you have such a large buffer unless all you do is spam the most expensive skill for lolz. It doesn't do anything for the game till the next expansion that rebalances skill costs and gear values. Static values give you a flat time till you oom at all levels, skewed slightly if you find yourself needing regen but can keep mana something you have to always watch to be good.
Neither of these are good or bad designs. They exist in different games. If either were a design limitation I doubt they would both exist in 2 of the top MMOs of the past 20 years along with several others that do well. My only point bringing all this up through all these posts is because you said capping mana was some sort of limitation and a bad design when you never really give any reasons why not capping it is any better because "it takes options away from players and devs" but I've seen 0 games where people get excited about getting more mana and all the choices it gives you. It's still a dump stat. Having high mana is usually not necessary if you have higher regen, like the capped games, and visa versa. They are two sides to the same coin with different pros and cons but you keep bashing 1 like it's inferior. Both are limited in different ways. I never was advocating for 1 over the other but presented both equally because we don't know how it will be yet and potions (the actual main topic) that deal mana that have a static value in most games, instead of %, benefit from capped mana while % benefits from non capped. Each have things the other can't do. Which mana system should be in the game was never the point, it was speculation for theorycrafting to cover bases. I however decided to make a point of contesting that you said capped mana was a limiting system of balance or poor design, which again wasn't meant in context of being in this game but other games it's currently in and balanced for which shows that it isn't as limited as you think otherwise those systems and games would fail.
I'm not saying what you propose isn't unexecuteable if they so choose. It just seems that you are determined for them to build the mana stat to recreate something from another game rather than build the classes first and then encounters based on what is possible from that.
The decision to have a set mana pool is not something you make while designing and iterating a class. It is a decision you make for a whole game, and then you design classes based on that.
How mana was designed like in EQ2 facilitated it's use in that fight not the other way around.
This is true, and I have not said otherwise.
I am not saying that mechanic would fit in to Ashes. I wouldn't want Intrepid to even attempt to implement it until the game is a few years old (it is a tough mechanic to pull off, players and developers need to understand the game).
What I am saying -for about the tenth time - is if you put a hard cap on mana pools, you take options away from both players and developers.
I asked you this in my previous post, and I will ask it again. Name one thing that is possible in a game with set mana pools that is not also possible in games with variable mana pools. If you can't name something, then it is obviously a bad design decision as all it does is remove options from players and developers.
It's not what's possible, it's how it allows the game to be tuned and balanced. As gear gets better and you get more mana, that eventually hits a break point where mana gets to a point that oom potential is low and skill management means nothing because you have such a large buffer unless all you do is spam the most expensive skill for lolz.
So, what you are saying is that you think the developers at Intrepid are shit at their job, and so the game should be dumbed down for their sake? Because that is actually what you are saying here - you don't think the developers would be able to handle it.
If I didn't think the developers working on a game were competent, I wouldn't give the game a second look.
So, what you are saying is that you think the developers at Intrepid are shit at their job, and so the game should be dumbed down for their sake? Because that is actually what you are saying here - you don't think the developers would be able to handle it.
If I didn't think the developers working on a game were competent, I wouldn't give the game a second look.
Once again you're missing the point. I'm arguing the viability and weaknesses of the systems in general but not explicitly in regards to how the devs are going to balance it in this game. It's like you didn't even read the last paragraph I wrote let alone the last sentence. Both choices to deal with mana are valid systems as I said. The only point I was trying to make is that because you seemed unjustly disgusted by capping mana just because it doesn't fit your agenda of mana management. I have played with both where you apparently haven't and are clearly biased in your opinion against a system you haven't tried but seem determined to bash as supposedly inferior. I don't care which system they use in this game, they will do fine with balance.
I am opposed to any mechanic that removes options for players, without having a worthwhile compromise.
A hard cap on mana does this, and so I am opposed to it.
Options are good, so long as they don't contradict systems in place. And seeing as we don't know all of the details on combat and class abilities or even stats, so who is to say the capped version wouldn't benefit the design that the developers are creating? We don't know yet, so saying one or the other shouldn't be used is based on an opinion without much of a foundation. But to say that they are both plausible routes the developers may take is a proper statement and it is a good thing to discuss the utilization each would have with different types of potion mechanics since that is the topic.
I am opposed to any mechanic that removes options for players, without having a worthwhile compromise.
A hard cap on mana does this, and so I am opposed to it.
Options are good, so long as they don't contradict systems in place. And seeing as we don't know all of the details on combat and class abilities or even stats, so who is to say the capped version wouldn't benefit the design that the developers are creating? We don't know yet, so saying one or the other shouldn't be used is based on an opinion without much of a foundation. But to say that they are both plausible routes the developers may take is a proper statement and it is a good thing to discuss the utilization each would have with different types of potion mechanics since that is the topic.
I've been asking about the utilization of a mana cap - specifically asking what it allows for that can't be done without a mana cap. This is now the third time I have asked it without an answer.
I mean, if others want a discussion about it, cool. Thing is, if they aren't going to actually discuss it, I am left with nothing but my opinion - which is that a cap like that adds nothing to the game, and only takes away options from players.
Don't go blaming me for having an opinion on a topic, wanting a discussion on it, but no one being willing to defend their opposing opinion.
I am opposed to any mechanic that removes options for players, without having a worthwhile compromise.
A hard cap on mana does this, and so I am opposed to it.
Options are good, so long as they don't contradict systems in place. And seeing as we don't know all of the details on combat and class abilities or even stats, so who is to say the capped version wouldn't benefit the design that the developers are creating? We don't know yet, so saying one or the other shouldn't be used is based on an opinion without much of a foundation. But to say that they are both plausible routes the developers may take is a proper statement and it is a good thing to discuss the utilization each would have with different types of potion mechanics since that is the topic.
I've been asking about the utilization of a mana cap - specifically asking what it allows for that can't be done without a mana cap. This is now the third time I have asked it without an answer.
I mean, if others want a discussion about it, cool. Thing is, if they aren't going to actually discuss it, I am left with nothing but my opinion - which is that a cap like that adds nothing to the game, and only takes away options from players.
Don't go blaming me for having an opinion on a topic, wanting a discussion on it, but no one being willing to defend their opposing opinion.
Not blaming you for having an opinion, simply saying that we don't know which system intrepid is using, or even if they could be using another system besides the ones mentioned. For all we know mana will only be a resource for mage classes. Go ahead and throw your points out there for why you think one system may work or another won't, but its kind of a dead end to say one is absolutely right or wrong when we have no idea what route the game is taking or how the systems actually work. There are too many factors to consider between Class Variables, item variables, stat variable, consumable variables, skill variables, playstyle variables, talents, etc. Argue the topic of what consumable mechanic would work with whichever cap/no cap mechanic, but its too early to justify which system would work in the game without knowing more information.
I am opposed to any mechanic that removes options for players, without having a worthwhile compromise.
A hard cap on mana does this, and so I am opposed to it.
Options are good, so long as they don't contradict systems in place. And seeing as we don't know all of the details on combat and class abilities or even stats, so who is to say the capped version wouldn't benefit the design that the developers are creating? We don't know yet, so saying one or the other shouldn't be used is based on an opinion without much of a foundation. But to say that they are both plausible routes the developers may take is a proper statement and it is a good thing to discuss the utilization each would have with different types of potion mechanics since that is the topic.
I've been asking about the utilization of a mana cap - specifically asking what it allows for that can't be done without a mana cap. This is now the third time I have asked it without an answer.
I mean, if others want a discussion about it, cool. Thing is, if they aren't going to actually discuss it, I am left with nothing but my opinion - which is that a cap like that adds nothing to the game, and only takes away options from players.
Don't go blaming me for having an opinion on a topic, wanting a discussion on it, but no one being willing to defend their opposing opinion.
Not blaming you for having an opinion, simply saying that we don't know which system intrepid is using, or even if they could be using another system besides the ones mentioned. For all we know mana will only be a resource for mage classes. Go ahead and throw your points out there for why you think one system may work or another won't, but its kind of a dead end to say one is absolutely right or wrong when we have no idea what route the game is taking or how the systems actually work. There are too many factors to consider between Class Variables, item variables, stat variable, consumable variables, skill variables, playstyle variables, talents, etc. Argue the topic of what consumable mechanic would work with whichever cap/no cap mechanic, but its too early to justify which system would work in the game without knowing more information.
I never said it wouldn't work, I said it wouldn't add anything.
While we don't know details about what classes will use mana, it hie any replenishment can work, we can still talk hypotheticals. I have been asking for a hypothetical scenario where capped mana would make the game better rather than worse, and am yet to receive any suggestions. This is even taking in to account that there is a game that has this system, yet no one is pointing to FFXIV and why they did it, saying that it makes the game better by giving players more options.
I'm not saying that I think Ashes should have a capped mana system because of some reason, I am saying that I think no game should have a capped mana system because there is no advantage to it.
I am opposed to any mechanic that removes options for players, without having a worthwhile compromise.
A hard cap on mana does this, and so I am opposed to it.
Options are good, so long as they don't contradict systems in place. And seeing as we don't know all of the details on combat and class abilities or even stats, so who is to say the capped version wouldn't benefit the design that the developers are creating? We don't know yet, so saying one or the other shouldn't be used is based on an opinion without much of a foundation. But to say that they are both plausible routes the developers may take is a proper statement and it is a good thing to discuss the utilization each would have with different types of potion mechanics since that is the topic.
I've been asking about the utilization of a mana cap - specifically asking what it allows for that can't be done without a mana cap. This is now the third time I have asked it without an answer.
I mean, if others want a discussion about it, cool. Thing is, if they aren't going to actually discuss it, I am left with nothing but my opinion - which is that a cap like that adds nothing to the game, and only takes away options from players.
Don't go blaming me for having an opinion on a topic, wanting a discussion on it, but no one being willing to defend their opposing opinion.
Not blaming you for having an opinion, simply saying that we don't know which system intrepid is using, or even if they could be using another system besides the ones mentioned. For all we know mana will only be a resource for mage classes. Go ahead and throw your points out there for why you think one system may work or another won't, but its kind of a dead end to say one is absolutely right or wrong when we have no idea what route the game is taking or how the systems actually work. There are too many factors to consider between Class Variables, item variables, stat variable, consumable variables, skill variables, playstyle variables, talents, etc. Argue the topic of what consumable mechanic would work with whichever cap/no cap mechanic, but its too early to justify which system would work in the game without knowing more information.
I never said it wouldn't work, I said it wouldn't add anything.
While we don't know details about what classes will use mana, it hie any replenishment can work, we can still talk hypotheticals. I have been asking for a hypothetical scenario where capped mana would make the game better rather than worse, and am yet to receive any suggestions. This is even taking in to account that there is a game that has this system, yet no one is pointing to FFXIV and why they did it, saying that it makes the game better by giving players more options.
I'm not saying that I think Ashes should have a capped mana system because of some reason, I am saying that I think no game should have a capped mana system because there is no advantage to it.
I get that, I was just saying that it would depend on the systems implemented to say whether a capped system can be beneficial or not. I personally don't see much of a reason to cap it either, but until they release much more info I can't really justify sitting here and saying no to it just because its what I think. I would rather go off of what I know.
I am opposed to any mechanic that removes options for players, without having a worthwhile compromise.
A hard cap on mana does this, and so I am opposed to it.
Options are good, so long as they don't contradict systems in place. And seeing as we don't know all of the details on combat and class abilities or even stats, so who is to say the capped version wouldn't benefit the design that the developers are creating? We don't know yet, so saying one or the other shouldn't be used is based on an opinion without much of a foundation. But to say that they are both plausible routes the developers may take is a proper statement and it is a good thing to discuss the utilization each would have with different types of potion mechanics since that is the topic.
I've been asking about the utilization of a mana cap - specifically asking what it allows for that can't be done without a mana cap. This is now the third time I have asked it without an answer.
I mean, if others want a discussion about it, cool. Thing is, if they aren't going to actually discuss it, I am left with nothing but my opinion - which is that a cap like that adds nothing to the game, and only takes away options from players.
Don't go blaming me for having an opinion on a topic, wanting a discussion on it, but no one being willing to defend their opposing opinion.
Not blaming you for having an opinion, simply saying that we don't know which system intrepid is using, or even if they could be using another system besides the ones mentioned. For all we know mana will only be a resource for mage classes. Go ahead and throw your points out there for why you think one system may work or another won't, but its kind of a dead end to say one is absolutely right or wrong when we have no idea what route the game is taking or how the systems actually work. There are too many factors to consider between Class Variables, item variables, stat variable, consumable variables, skill variables, playstyle variables, talents, etc. Argue the topic of what consumable mechanic would work with whichever cap/no cap mechanic, but its too early to justify which system would work in the game without knowing more information.
I never said it wouldn't work, I said it wouldn't add anything.
While we don't know details about what classes will use mana, it hie any replenishment can work, we can still talk hypotheticals. I have been asking for a hypothetical scenario where capped mana would make the game better rather than worse, and am yet to receive any suggestions. This is even taking in to account that there is a game that has this system, yet no one is pointing to FFXIV and why they did it, saying that it makes the game better by giving players more options.
I'm not saying that I think Ashes should have a capped mana system because of some reason, I am saying that I think no game should have a capped mana system because there is no advantage to it.
I get that, I was just saying that it would depend on the systems implemented to say whether a capped system can be beneficial or not. I personally don't see much of a reason to cap it either, but until they release much more info I can't really justify sitting here and saying no to it just because its what I think. I would rather go off of what I know.
I am opposed to any mechanic that removes options for players, without having a worthwhile compromise.
A hard cap on mana does this, and so I am opposed to it.
Options are good, so long as they don't contradict systems in place. And seeing as we don't know all of the details on combat and class abilities or even stats, so who is to say the capped version wouldn't benefit the design that the developers are creating? We don't know yet, so saying one or the other shouldn't be used is based on an opinion without much of a foundation. But to say that they are both plausible routes the developers may take is a proper statement and it is a good thing to discuss the utilization each would have with different types of potion mechanics since that is the topic.
I've been asking about the utilization of a mana cap - specifically asking what it allows for that can't be done without a mana cap. This is now the third time I have asked it without an answer.
I mean, if others want a discussion about it, cool. Thing is, if they aren't going to actually discuss it, I am left with nothing but my opinion - which is that a cap like that adds nothing to the game, and only takes away options from players.
Don't go blaming me for having an opinion on a topic, wanting a discussion on it, but no one being willing to defend their opposing opinion.
Not blaming you for having an opinion, simply saying that we don't know which system intrepid is using, or even if they could be using another system besides the ones mentioned. For all we know mana will only be a resource for mage classes. Go ahead and throw your points out there for why you think one system may work or another won't, but its kind of a dead end to say one is absolutely right or wrong when we have no idea what route the game is taking or how the systems actually work. There are too many factors to consider between Class Variables, item variables, stat variable, consumable variables, skill variables, playstyle variables, talents, etc. Argue the topic of what consumable mechanic would work with whichever cap/no cap mechanic, but its too early to justify which system would work in the game without knowing more information.
I never said it wouldn't work, I said it wouldn't add anything.
While we don't know details about what classes will use mana, it hie any replenishment can work, we can still talk hypotheticals. I have been asking for a hypothetical scenario where capped mana would make the game better rather than worse, and am yet to receive any suggestions. This is even taking in to account that there is a game that has this system, yet no one is pointing to FFXIV and why they did it, saying that it makes the game better by giving players more options.
I'm not saying that I think Ashes should have a capped mana system because of some reason, I am saying that I think no game should have a capped mana system because there is no advantage to it.
I get that, I was just saying that it would depend on the systems implemented to say whether a capped system can be beneficial or not. I personally don't see much of a reason to cap it either, but until they release much more info I can't really justify sitting here and saying no to it just because its what I think. I would rather go off of what I know.
The only reason I'm saying no rather than having a discussion about the pros and cons of each is because no one is willing to take up the opposing view.
I'd like to have a discussion on this, but if no one had any real reason as to why it should happen, then surely we should all just say no.
The only reason I'm saying no rather than having a discussion about the pros and cons of each is because no one is willing to take up the opposing view.
I'd like to have a discussion on this, but if no one had any real reason as to why it should happen, then surely we should all just say no.
Well having a strict mana system can work but it requires such specific fine-tuning to make it work. Basically a mana cap could allow for a well oiled machine that is just designed and done rather than a computer that is constantly having different inputs thrown its way causing bugs to crop up.
I agree that we should not have a mana cap, but the above would be my argument for the sake of arguing.
The only reason I'm saying no rather than having a discussion about the pros and cons of each is because no one is willing to take up the opposing view.
I'd like to have a discussion on this, but if no one had any real reason as to why it should happen, then surely we should all just say no.
Well having a strict mana system can work but it requires such specific fine-tuning to make it work. Basically a mana cap could allow for a well oiled machine that is just designed and done rather than a computer that is constantly having different inputs thrown its way causing bugs to crop up.
I agree that we should not have a mana cap, but the above would be my argument for the sake of arguing.
So, basically, a mana cap makes it easier for the developers to balance, at the expense of player options?
The only reason I'm saying no rather than having a discussion about the pros and cons of each is because no one is willing to take up the opposing view.
I'd like to have a discussion on this, but if no one had any real reason as to why it should happen, then surely we should all just say no.
Well having a strict mana system can work but it requires such specific fine-tuning to make it work. Basically a mana cap could allow for a well oiled machine that is just designed and done rather than a computer that is constantly having different inputs thrown its way causing bugs to crop up.
I agree that we should not have a mana cap, but the above would be my argument for the sake of arguing.
So, basically, a mana cap makes it easier for the developers to balance, at the expense of player options?
Well it is also easier for players to understand how it works and play with it. If done correctly it could be QoL for both player and developer at the expense of players choosing what to do with mana.
The only reason I'm saying no rather than having a discussion about the pros and cons of each is because no one is willing to take up the opposing view.
I'd like to have a discussion on this, but if no one had any real reason as to why it should happen, then surely we should all just say no.
Well having a strict mana system can work but it requires such specific fine-tuning to make it work. Basically a mana cap could allow for a well oiled machine that is just designed and done rather than a computer that is constantly having different inputs thrown its way causing bugs to crop up.
I agree that we should not have a mana cap, but the above would be my argument for the sake of arguing.
So, basically, a mana cap makes it easier for the developers to balance, at the expense of player options?
Well it is also easier for players to understand how it works and play with it. If done correctly it could be QoL for both player and developer at the expense of players choosing what to do with mana.
It could be, but since mana is usually a secondary stat at most, players need not give it much thought anyway.
It's one of those stats that you should only need to think about when you are getting in depth with a specific class or build.
The only reason I'm saying no rather than having a discussion about the pros and cons of each is because no one is willing to take up the opposing view.
I'd like to have a discussion on this, but if no one had any real reason as to why it should happen, then surely we should all just say no.
Well having a strict mana system can work but it requires such specific fine-tuning to make it work. Basically a mana cap could allow for a well oiled machine that is just designed and done rather than a computer that is constantly having different inputs thrown its way causing bugs to crop up.
I agree that we should not have a mana cap, but the above would be my argument for the sake of arguing.
So, basically, a mana cap makes it easier for the developers to balance, at the expense of player options?
Well it is also easier for players to understand how it works and play with it. If done correctly it could be QoL for both player and developer at the expense of players choosing what to do with mana.
It could be, but since mana is usually a secondary stat at most, players need not give it much thought anyway.
It's one of those stats that you should only need to think about when you are getting in depth with a specific class or build.
Well that depends on how vital mana will be when using skills and which classes use it more than others. A healer might have to dredge up every light piece of armor and re stat it all to mana/mana regeneration to keep up with long fights. Obviously there are other classes that could have similar issues that need to sacrifice stats in order to min max efficiently.
WIth a set amount of mana, you can focus more on other stats and in this supposed system you would have abilities that regenerate mana when you use them properly similar to the combos in ff14. If you are not good at your character you will be less efficient at keeping your mana up so that you can cast your more powerful abilities.
I don't particularly like this over the customization of a regular mana stat but I could see it working out and not being purely to make things easy on the developers.
My personal opinion is that i am completely against any capping of mana. The reason here for me is that mana is a variable stat like crit chance, crit damage, life leech through damage, or whatever else you can focus your character on. Capping one of this is taking away one possible decision from the player. I like it to have as many variables as possible to juggle with when min/maxing the stats of my character.
In WoW the day when they deleted the talent trees and changed it to the system that you now have where you only can decide one of three talents every x levels was the most horrible thing for me, because after that it wasnt an rpg any more for me, but something in the direction of diablo.
What i want to say with that is, if someone wants a hacknslay-game, then you should play one, but i think that an rpg should have as many variables as possible, and i think one of them should be your own decision how many Armor parts you want to have with extra mana on them.
@Noaani I could see the capped system as a "keep it simple stupid" method of playing. It is definitely less customizable and not exactly my cup of tea but it would absolutely be easier to deal with both on the development side and on the play side of things. I honestly wouldn't mind trying out both because for the most part, simple systems usually give faster gameplay from my experience. But there is a sweetness to the customization of having a resource as a stat with no cap. I would say a good example of capped resource would be rage mechanics and even things like runic power for death knights in WoW (I know its a terrible game). Some attacks generate, others spend, but hell a capped mana system could work similarly, just having mana regen be the generation instead of abilities. Thinking about it actually makes it sound pretty fun to be honest.
Why not both?
Mana reg and mana amount as two variables.
Why capping one of them?
Let the players decide what of them both they want to what percentage.
Why not both?
Mana reg and mana amount as two variables.
Why capping one of them?
Let the players decide what of them both they want to what percentage.
no reason not to, was simply pointing out that it could be fun the other way as well. Whether or not it would be more fun would need to be tested and also depend on many variables.
@Noaani I could see the capped system as a "keep it simple stupid" method of playing. It is definitely less customizable and not exactly my cup of tea but it would absolutely be easier to deal with both on the development side and on the play side of things. I honestly wouldn't mind trying out both because for the most part, simple systems usually give faster gameplay from my experience. But there is a sweetness to the customization of having a resource as a stat with no cap. I would say a good example of capped resource would be rage mechanics and even things like runic power for death knights in WoW (I know its a terrible game). Some attacks generate, others spend, but hell a capped mana system could work similarly, just having mana regen be the generation instead of abilities. Thinking about it actually makes it sound pretty fun to be honest.
I am all for a class having a system akin to WoW's rage in Ashes - it isn't like all 8 classes need to use mana.
Thing is, mana as a mechanic/resource is fairly consistent across almost all games, MMO's or other genres. An argument could be made (should be made) that if you deviate from what mana is in other games, you no longer have a mana system, you have something else.
I also don't think it would make the game any simpler for players. In order to do that,you would need to assume that players often put real and actual thought in to their mana levels in other games. In my experience, this isn't true - mana is only thought about when it is a specific design element of either a build or an encounter - and these are times you specifically want mana to be thought about.
@Noaani I could see the capped system as a "keep it simple stupid" method of playing. It is definitely less customizable and not exactly my cup of tea but it would absolutely be easier to deal with both on the development side and on the play side of things. I honestly wouldn't mind trying out both because for the most part, simple systems usually give faster gameplay from my experience. But there is a sweetness to the customization of having a resource as a stat with no cap. I would say a good example of capped resource would be rage mechanics and even things like runic power for death knights in WoW (I know its a terrible game). Some attacks generate, others spend, but hell a capped mana system could work similarly, just having mana regen be the generation instead of abilities. Thinking about it actually makes it sound pretty fun to be honest.
I am all for a class having a system akin to WoW's rage in Ashes - it isn't like all 8 classes need to use mana.
Thing is, mana as a mechanic/resource is fairly consistent across almost all games, MMO's or other genres. An argument could be made (should be made) that if you deviate from what mana is in other games, you no longer have a mana system, you have something else.
I also don't think it would make the game any simpler for players. In order to do that,you would need to assume that players often put real and actual thought in to their mana levels in other games. In my experience, this isn't true - mana is only thought about when it is a specific design element of either a build or an encounter - and these are times you specifically want mana to be thought about.
I agree with that, but in classic WoW mana management is definitely a thing. The game does have its metas and what not but playing through it as a mage I messed around with a mana build and it actually was a ton of fun being able to just constantly cast things without stopping. But it was at an expense of burst damage. And as I said before I do love a no cap mana stat. But it wouldn't be the end of the world to me if they took a different route as long as it plays well.
@Noaani I could see the capped system as a "keep it simple stupid" method of playing. It is definitely less customizable and not exactly my cup of tea but it would absolutely be easier to deal with both on the development side and on the play side of things. I honestly wouldn't mind trying out both because for the most part, simple systems usually give faster gameplay from my experience. But there is a sweetness to the customization of having a resource as a stat with no cap. I would say a good example of capped resource would be rage mechanics and even things like runic power for death knights in WoW (I know its a terrible game). Some attacks generate, others spend, but hell a capped mana system could work similarly, just having mana regen be the generation instead of abilities. Thinking about it actually makes it sound pretty fun to be honest.
I am all for a class having a system akin to WoW's rage in Ashes - it isn't like all 8 classes need to use mana.
Thing is, mana as a mechanic/resource is fairly consistent across almost all games, MMO's or other genres. An argument could be made (should be made) that if you deviate from what mana is in other games, you no longer have a mana system, you have something else.
I also don't think it would make the game any simpler for players. In order to do that,you would need to assume that players often put real and actual thought in to their mana levels in other games. In my experience, this isn't true - mana is only thought about when it is a specific design element of either a build or an encounter - and these are times you specifically want mana to be thought about.
I agree with that, but in classic WoW mana management is definitely a thing. The game does have its metas and what not but playing through it as a mage I messed around with a mana build and it actually was a ton of fun being able to just constantly cast things without stopping. But it was at an expense of burst damage. And as I said before I do love a no cap mana stat. But it wouldn't be the end of the world to me if they took a different route as long as it plays well.
As a build designed around it, yes. I did say that.
How about a Witcher system? Dont put any CD on the potions, but make them give you a debuff.
Shure, you can drink a ton of potions at once, but after 2 you get a health debuff and suffer some slight DoT.
That would increase with the amount of potions you drink over the limit, stacking on top of one another.
THAT.
No hard cooldowns, but have soft cooldowns in the form of stacking debuffs / diminishing return \o/
Feels much more realistic too.
Comments
It's not what's possible, it's how it allows the game to be tuned and balanced. As gear gets better and you get more mana, that eventually hits a break point where mana gets to a point that oom potential is low and skill management means nothing because you have such a large buffer unless all you do is spam the most expensive skill for lolz. It doesn't do anything for the game till the next expansion that rebalances skill costs and gear values. Static values give you a flat time till you oom at all levels, skewed slightly if you find yourself needing regen but can keep mana something you have to always watch to be good.
Neither of these are good or bad designs. They exist in different games. If either were a design limitation I doubt they would both exist in 2 of the top MMOs of the past 20 years along with several others that do well. My only point bringing all this up through all these posts is because you said capping mana was some sort of limitation and a bad design when you never really give any reasons why not capping it is any better because "it takes options away from players and devs" but I've seen 0 games where people get excited about getting more mana and all the choices it gives you. It's still a dump stat. Having high mana is usually not necessary if you have higher regen, like the capped games, and visa versa. They are two sides to the same coin with different pros and cons but you keep bashing 1 like it's inferior. Both are limited in different ways. I never was advocating for 1 over the other but presented both equally because we don't know how it will be yet and potions (the actual main topic) that deal mana that have a static value in most games, instead of %, benefit from capped mana while % benefits from non capped. Each have things the other can't do. Which mana system should be in the game was never the point, it was speculation for theorycrafting to cover bases. I however decided to make a point of contesting that you said capped mana was a limiting system of balance or poor design, which again wasn't meant in context of being in this game but other games it's currently in and balanced for which shows that it isn't as limited as you think otherwise those systems and games would fail.
So, what you are saying is that you think the developers at Intrepid are shit at their job, and so the game should be dumbed down for their sake? Because that is actually what you are saying here - you don't think the developers would be able to handle it.
If I didn't think the developers working on a game were competent, I wouldn't give the game a second look.
Once again you're missing the point. I'm arguing the viability and weaknesses of the systems in general but not explicitly in regards to how the devs are going to balance it in this game. It's like you didn't even read the last paragraph I wrote let alone the last sentence. Both choices to deal with mana are valid systems as I said. The only point I was trying to make is that because you seemed unjustly disgusted by capping mana just because it doesn't fit your agenda of mana management. I have played with both where you apparently haven't and are clearly biased in your opinion against a system you haven't tried but seem determined to bash as supposedly inferior. I don't care which system they use in this game, they will do fine with balance.
I am opposed to any mechanic that removes options for players, without having a worthwhile compromise.
A hard cap on mana does this, and so I am opposed to it.
Options are good, so long as they don't contradict systems in place. And seeing as we don't know all of the details on combat and class abilities or even stats, so who is to say the capped version wouldn't benefit the design that the developers are creating? We don't know yet, so saying one or the other shouldn't be used is based on an opinion without much of a foundation. But to say that they are both plausible routes the developers may take is a proper statement and it is a good thing to discuss the utilization each would have with different types of potion mechanics since that is the topic.
I mean, if others want a discussion about it, cool. Thing is, if they aren't going to actually discuss it, I am left with nothing but my opinion - which is that a cap like that adds nothing to the game, and only takes away options from players.
Don't go blaming me for having an opinion on a topic, wanting a discussion on it, but no one being willing to defend their opposing opinion.
Not blaming you for having an opinion, simply saying that we don't know which system intrepid is using, or even if they could be using another system besides the ones mentioned. For all we know mana will only be a resource for mage classes. Go ahead and throw your points out there for why you think one system may work or another won't, but its kind of a dead end to say one is absolutely right or wrong when we have no idea what route the game is taking or how the systems actually work. There are too many factors to consider between Class Variables, item variables, stat variable, consumable variables, skill variables, playstyle variables, talents, etc. Argue the topic of what consumable mechanic would work with whichever cap/no cap mechanic, but its too early to justify which system would work in the game without knowing more information.
I never said it wouldn't work, I said it wouldn't add anything.
While we don't know details about what classes will use mana, it hie any replenishment can work, we can still talk hypotheticals. I have been asking for a hypothetical scenario where capped mana would make the game better rather than worse, and am yet to receive any suggestions. This is even taking in to account that there is a game that has this system, yet no one is pointing to FFXIV and why they did it, saying that it makes the game better by giving players more options.
I'm not saying that I think Ashes should have a capped mana system because of some reason, I am saying that I think no game should have a capped mana system because there is no advantage to it.
I get that, I was just saying that it would depend on the systems implemented to say whether a capped system can be beneficial or not. I personally don't see much of a reason to cap it either, but until they release much more info I can't really justify sitting here and saying no to it just because its what I think. I would rather go off of what I know.
The only reason I'm saying no rather than having a discussion about the pros and cons of each is because no one is willing to take up the opposing view.
I'd like to have a discussion on this, but if no one had any real reason as to why it should happen, then surely we should all just say no.
Well having a strict mana system can work but it requires such specific fine-tuning to make it work. Basically a mana cap could allow for a well oiled machine that is just designed and done rather than a computer that is constantly having different inputs thrown its way causing bugs to crop up.
I agree that we should not have a mana cap, but the above would be my argument for the sake of arguing.
So, basically, a mana cap makes it easier for the developers to balance, at the expense of player options?
Well it is also easier for players to understand how it works and play with it. If done correctly it could be QoL for both player and developer at the expense of players choosing what to do with mana.
It could be, but since mana is usually a secondary stat at most, players need not give it much thought anyway.
It's one of those stats that you should only need to think about when you are getting in depth with a specific class or build.
Well that depends on how vital mana will be when using skills and which classes use it more than others. A healer might have to dredge up every light piece of armor and re stat it all to mana/mana regeneration to keep up with long fights. Obviously there are other classes that could have similar issues that need to sacrifice stats in order to min max efficiently.
WIth a set amount of mana, you can focus more on other stats and in this supposed system you would have abilities that regenerate mana when you use them properly similar to the combos in ff14. If you are not good at your character you will be less efficient at keeping your mana up so that you can cast your more powerful abilities.
I don't particularly like this over the customization of a regular mana stat but I could see it working out and not being purely to make things easy on the developers.
In WoW the day when they deleted the talent trees and changed it to the system that you now have where you only can decide one of three talents every x levels was the most horrible thing for me, because after that it wasnt an rpg any more for me, but something in the direction of diablo.
What i want to say with that is, if someone wants a hacknslay-game, then you should play one, but i think that an rpg should have as many variables as possible, and i think one of them should be your own decision how many Armor parts you want to have with extra mana on them.
Mana reg and mana amount as two variables.
Why capping one of them?
Let the players decide what of them both they want to what percentage.
no reason not to, was simply pointing out that it could be fun the other way as well. Whether or not it would be more fun would need to be tested and also depend on many variables.
I am all for a class having a system akin to WoW's rage in Ashes - it isn't like all 8 classes need to use mana.
Thing is, mana as a mechanic/resource is fairly consistent across almost all games, MMO's or other genres. An argument could be made (should be made) that if you deviate from what mana is in other games, you no longer have a mana system, you have something else.
I also don't think it would make the game any simpler for players. In order to do that,you would need to assume that players often put real and actual thought in to their mana levels in other games. In my experience, this isn't true - mana is only thought about when it is a specific design element of either a build or an encounter - and these are times you specifically want mana to be thought about.
I agree with that, but in classic WoW mana management is definitely a thing. The game does have its metas and what not but playing through it as a mage I messed around with a mana build and it actually was a ton of fun being able to just constantly cast things without stopping. But it was at an expense of burst damage. And as I said before I do love a no cap mana stat. But it wouldn't be the end of the world to me if they took a different route as long as it plays well.
As a build designed around it, yes. I did say that.
THAT.
No hard cooldowns, but have soft cooldowns in the form of stacking debuffs / diminishing return \o/
Feels much more realistic too.