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Terminology / Magic Terminology

XezXez Member
edited October 2020 in General Discussion
There are some major discrepancies in some key terms different games use to describe what are often the exact same thing, or different things being described using the same term, and it's incredibly infuriating as a player.

Can you please just not use fancy arbitrary terms for the sake of making things sound fancy and cool, to describe things that could have well understood simple words to replace it.

Particularly related to magic and magic users. The general term "Mage" for instance. When I hear the term "mage" I take that to mean basically any "class" that can use magic. It could he healing magic, offensive magic, enhancement magic, whatever. But apparently in the world of WoW and some other games, no, that's completely wrong, and "Mage" is actually a specific class who only casts offensive magic.

Another term that irks me is "arcane" magic. Just what the heck is "arcane"??? Nobody ever actually uses that word in our real life, it is a term that seems completely arbitrary and has no inherent meaning to it. You could literally replace the word with any combination of enunciable syllables and convey the same amount of useful information with it. (zero)

I'm admit I'm biased because I'm primarily a Final Fantasy player where the universal magic terms are straightforward for the most part, there's WHITE magic for healing, and there's BLACK magic for offensive magic. Simple, straightforward, beautiful, to the point, no arbitrary nonsense to memorize.

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    Xez wrote: »
    Another term that irks me is "arcane" magic. Just what the heck is "arcane"???

    Arcane: known or understood by very few; mysterious; secret; obscure; esoteric

    There you go :)
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
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    XezXez Member
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Xez wrote: »
    Another term that irks me is "arcane" magic. Just what the heck is "arcane"???

    Arcane: known or understood by very few; mysterious; secret; obscure; esoteric

    There you go :)

    You're simultaneously missing and proving my point.

    So what types of spells does that definition help you understand would be?

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    Mysterious spells. Secret spells. Obscure spells. And esoteric spells. :D

    I think there's an air of mystery surrounding magic, even ordinary RL magic. So, when you get it in a game and it's actual magic, I can quite happily accept the word "arcane".


    "You could literally replace the word with any combination of enunciable syllables and convey the same amount of useful information with it. (zero)"

    I'm going to try this bit...
    The combination of enunciable syllables I shall choose is: Shplablomblegoosh.
    I would now like the Mage/Mage class to be changed to the Shplablomblegoosher class.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
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    DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited October 2020
    This seems more like a general complaint then something directly concerning AoC.
    I think that Intrepid was pretty clear with most of their descriptions tbh.
    They are not really responsible for what YOU specifically interprete under the general assumption of Mage.

    Mage is the class that throws around offensive spells mainly. Fireball? Mage. Thunderbolt? Mage. Healing spell? Not Mage.

    Game companies like to implement "arcane" type spells, because they normally divide the spells into different schools of elemental magic (for simplicities sake and for different kinds of resistances in boss fights etc). Some spells like teleport, blink, invisibility, tiny hut etc dont fit into that, so they get put into "arcane", which means that something is mysterious.

    All of the spells are also pretty clear:
    After Image - Should be selfexplanatory
    Arch Lightning - An arch of lightning
    Black Hole - WHAT COULD IT BE?!?
    Blink - Im gone in the blink of an eye
    Forcefield - I need no armor, for the force is with me
    Ice Prison - Did it get cold suddenly or am i imagining things again?
    ice Sheet - Watch out, it gets slippery
    Implosion - EXXXXPLOOOOOOOOOOSIOOOOOOOON!
    Portal - What could be behind door number 1?
    Prismatic Beam - SO MANY COLORS, THEY BURN!
    Safe Space - Everyone needs this nowadays
    Tentacle - Someone was naughty

    a6XEiIf.gif
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    Xez wrote: »
    So what types of spells does that definition help you understand would be?

    "White Magic" doesn't necessarily convey healing to me, either. And "Black Magic" just makes me think of chocolate.

    Mmmmmmm, chocolate.....
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
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    I'm fairly old school, and go back to 2nd Edition DnD, so I'm just going provide thoughts based on my play & observations.
    • A 'mage' has been synonymous with a wizard - an offensive caster that relies on knowledge/books for spells (as opposed to a cleric that is most often seen as a defensive/support caster, or a sorcerer that is a more intuitive caster)
    • I use the word 'arcane' all the time - mainly because the word itself has become pretty arcane. WoW uses arcane magic, as sort of a miscellaneous form of magic (not fire, frost, nature, etc.). It's kinda like the Hufflepuff of magical types.
    • The white / black magic thing is fine for the FF series, but if you go back to the PnP days there was a much more complex list of magical schools: abjuration, alteration, transmutation, conjuration, illusion, enchantment, necromancy, evocation, and divination. Let's not get into the clerical/druidic schools. I like the depth, but I don't think it would fly as well in an mmo

    I'm game for whatever Ashes wants to bring to the table to describe their take on magic.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
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    https://thealpinedm.com/dnd-5e-schools-of-magic/

    There, 8 schools of magic that should mostly explain "magic".

    Now there are types of magic, and arcane is the rawest form of magic, no attribute whatsoever. This branches out into all the other forms of magic aside from divine magic. Divine magic is mostly described as "of the gods", meaning it is purely generated from the gods and does not draw from the "origin" of Arcane magic, the more natural spring of magical power.
    5000x1000px_sathrago_commission_ravenjuu_1.jpg?ex=665ce6c0&is=665b9540&hm=1fa03cbbd9ea4d641eaf4ca6f133d013d392b1968d6ca9add7d433259c509d09&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
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    DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited October 2020
    CROW3 wrote: »
    I use the word 'arcane' all the time - mainly because the word itself has become pretty arcane. WoW uses arcane magic, as sort of a miscellaneous form of magic (not fire, frost, nature, etc.). It's kinda like the Hufflepuff of magical types.

    Im gonna steal that explanation for arcane magic.
    "Oh well, its the Hufflepuff of magic types!"
    a6XEiIf.gif
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    Damokles wrote: »
    Im gonna steal that explanation for arcane magic.
    "Oh well, its the Hufflepuff of magic types!"

    Good 'ole "Miscellaneous" wizards.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
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    Xez wrote: »
    But apparently in the world of WoW and some other games, no, that's completely wrong, and "Mage" is actually a specific class who only casts offensive magic.

    I think it's more that in the broader lore mages in WoW use many different kinds of magic, but for the sake of MMO game play, which focuses more on combat than utility, you'll see offensive magic being featured.

    The best way to look at things is to be open-minded about what different words/classes in different fantasy settings. Most fantasy IPs use common terms, derived from mythology/folklore, then add their own flavour to them.

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    bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I personally like when they use "old" words or new stuff they came up with.

    To me "arcane magic" is anything that doesn't fall in to elemental magic. Fire,water,life....ect. Stuff like portals and prismatic beam are good examples.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
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    TacualeonTacualeon Member
    edited October 2020
    Xez wrote: »
    There are some major discrepancies in some key terms different games use to describe what are often the exact same thing, or different things being described using the same term, and it's incredibly infuriating as a player.

    There are discrepancies because everything is made up for fun.
    The only "right" way is historical, but historical doesn't make fun.
    Everything you ever thought you knew about magic is a lie and a creative decision from someone.

    - IRL english mage comes from latin magus, and latin magus comes from magi, Zoroastrian priest.
    They were wise philosophers, astrologist, alchemist and astronomers.
    Wizard (wise) is the anglo-saxon equivalent.
    The whole idea of doing magic comes from actual intelectual work and understanding of the world.


    - Sorcerer comes from sortiarius "teller of fortunes"

    Magi, wizard, druid, shaman, priest were all the same.
    Sorcerer were scammers.
    Do what you want with the words.

    -Arcane is just a word for a non-elemental magic.
    Arcane magic, black magic, void magic whatever name you prefer.

    -Mage as a "offensive" caster is something made up so there could be other type of magic users.
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    maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I've only seen mages cast healing spells in Fire Emblem/FF games and similar JRPGs.
    Most other games I've played bar their mages from casting healing spells (vampires (blood mages)) and instead have dedicated support classes that specialize in healing. My guess is this idea comes from DnD?

    Many people will come to AoC with existing experience of the MMORPG culture - and a term like "mage" carries lots of expectations already. A new word would be more useful for a new concept, rather than redefining already common-use words like "mage". (though in this case you could probably get away with it)

    Otherwise I agree, simple naming is the most helpful - I think WildStar was a bit extra with the whole moxy/etc for their stats. They honestly weren't that different to Str/Dex/Int
    I wish I were deep and tragic
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Xez wrote: »
    There are some major discrepancies in some key terms different games use to describe what are often the exact same thing, or different things being described using the same term, and it's incredibly infuriating as a player.
    While I agree that things like this need to be consistent within an IP, different IP's absolutely do not need to match up.

    If one IP has lore that says that healing magic exists, and healers are casting that magic, then sure, you can opt to call them mages, if the IP wishes that to be the case.

    On the other hand, if healing comes from deities, and all healers do is channel the will of their deity, then you can't say the healers are casting that heal, and you could indeed say that it is not even magic.

    An IP may suggest that all healing comes from deities, as above, yet is still a form of magic. This IP may well then suggest that this is divine magic, and since the origin of all other magic is unknown, all other magic is arcane magic.

    Or an IP may say that all fire, ice, earth and wind magic is elemental magic, and all magic that doesn't fit in to this (potentially with or without the inclusion of divine magic above) is arcane magic.

    Any of these is fine, as long as a given IP is consistent within itself.

    If an IP wants to suggest that a mage is able to cast any magic, that's cool - and then depends on what that IP considers magic. Of an IP may say that a mage can only cast arcane magic - and again, that then depends on what the IP considers arcane magic. An IP may say that a wizard uses elemental magic, but that IP may also have healing magic be water based, rather than divine.

    Again, these things are all fine, as long as things remain internally consistent.

    Fantasy would be really boring if everyone all of a sudden had to follow the same rules.



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    Tacualeon wrote: »
    There are discrepancies because everything is made up for fun.

    Yes!
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
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    daveywavey wrote: »
    I'm going to try this bit...
    The combination of enunciable syllables I shall choose is: Shplablomblegoosh.
    I would now like the Mage/Mage class to be changed to the Shplablomblegoosher class.

    *cough* stillbetterthantank *cough*

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    NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Just say its the warp and problem solved
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
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    VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Sov54 wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    I'm going to try this bit...
    The combination of enunciable syllables I shall choose is: Shplablomblegoosh.
    I would now like the Mage/Mage class to be changed to the Shplablomblegoosher class.

    *cough* stillbetterthantank *cough*

    What’s wrong with guardian?
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    If its the same in D&D then it's always been a class related word. You are confusing it with the word spell or magic. Mage isn't just a class though. It's an entire archetype of classes that use Offensive and Support Magic, and specifically don't use weapons as their primary damage.

    That's how it's used by 99% of the MMO community. So you going to have to change your definition to this one when talking specifically about MMO's. MMO speak is like it's own language after all. It uses words as nouns that normally aren't in normal speak.
    zZJyoEK.gif

    U.S. East
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    maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    If its the same in D&D then it's always been a class related word. You are confusing it with the word spell or magic. Mage isn't just a class though. It's an entire archetype of classes that use Offensive and Support Magic, and specifically don't use weapons as their primary damage.

    That's how it's used by 99% of the MMO community. So you going to have to change your definition to this one when talking specifically about MMO's. MMO speak is like it's own language after all. It uses words as nouns that normally aren't in normal speak.

    Tell me about it.
    I wrote "mage" in an English exam in highschool and when I got my paper back it was circled with a question mark.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
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    maouw wrote: »
    Tell me about it.
    I wrote "mage" in an English exam in highschool and when I got my paper back it was circled with a question mark.

    Really? It's been a recognised word for years! The "3 Kings" in the Bible are known as the Magi. Admittedly, the more correct singular version is "magus", but it should be an accepted form!

    I'll give you an extra mark for your exam :)
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
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    Well, what was the exam question? 🤨
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
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    CROW3 wrote: »
    Well, what was the exam question? 🤨

    "Explain how Shakespeare introduces concepts of honour and betrayal in Acts 3 and 4 of 'Romeo & Juliet'."
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
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    Juliet Bootyclaps Romeo. =3
    zZJyoEK.gif

    U.S. East
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    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    Juliet Bootyclaps Romeo. =3

    'Romeo & Juliet' in 3 words. Good job!
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
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    AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited October 2020
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    Im gonna steal that explanation for arcane magic.
    "Oh well, its the Hufflepuff of magic types!"

    Good 'ole "Miscellaneous" wizards.
    They have the spells with the verbal component, “ET CETERA!”
     
    Hhak63P.png
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    bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    maouw wrote: »
    I've only seen mages cast healing spells in Fire Emblem/FF games and similar JRPGs.
    Most other games I've played bar their mages from casting healing spells (vampires (blood mages)) and instead have dedicated support classes that specialize in healing. My guess is this idea comes from DnD?

    Many people will come to AoC with existing experience of the MMORPG culture - and a term like "mage" carries lots of expectations already. A new word would be more useful for a new concept, rather than redefining already common-use words like "mage". (though in this case you could probably get away with it)

    Otherwise I agree, simple naming is the most helpful - I think WildStar was a bit extra with the whole moxy/etc for their stats. They honestly weren't that different to Str/Dex/Int


    Rift has the Chloromancer it is a life base healing spec for the mage. It is also my #1 group play spec. Doing damage to heal the party was good fun. (might have to go back while we wait).
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
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