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Potential problem with the Guild Talent system

So as Steven has said, guilds will probably not be able to reallocate points and would have to make a new guild to do so. This could be a n issue where larger guilds have multiple guilds prepared with different point allocations for different scenarios, where they all quit one to join another depending on the situation.

Solutions:
1. Having a cooldown on joining a new guild after leaving one.
2. Having a new guild member 'level up' in the new guild by doing activities with them or just gaining xp as you would normally, so that a new member would have to earn the right to make use of the guild talents and wouldn't have immediate access to them when they join.

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    TacualeonTacualeon Member
    edited October 2020
    Seano wrote: »
    where larger guilds have multiple guilds prepared with different point allocations for different scenarios, where they all quit one to join another depending on the situation.

    Is hard organizing large amount of people to do one same thing at a specific time.

    I think is a bit unfair to approach this in a punitive way.
    That lvl of engagement and organization from players shouldn't be punished, but rewarded , imo.
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    JahlonJahlon Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One
    Given that there is a cooldown between changing citizenship...

    ...and a cooldown between changing families....

    You can bet there is going to be a cooldown on changing guilds
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    It's really not that hard to imagine, a lot of guilds in classic WoW require the members to get world buffs (which can take some time) for the raid nights. I could very easily see guilds say, tuesday is raid day, make sure you join X(Raiding benefit talent guild) before then. Then switch back to Y(PvP talent guild) for the friday siege.
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    FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited October 2020
    If you can quit a guild from anywhere and join a guild from anywhere, then it would not be difficult to have a large amount of people switch guilds. It would simply be, everyone in the raid (or whatever group) /gquit and /join the previously made guild.
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    Jahlon wrote: »
    Given that there is a cooldown between changing citizenship...

    ...and a cooldown between changing families....

    You can bet there is going to be a cooldown on changing guilds

    Pretty condescending attitude to have. I try not to assume these things as that leads to misinformation and uninformed players (leading to disappointment in the game when they do play it). Not a good look for a content creator to have.
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    I would be surprised if there wasn't a cooldown associated with leaving and joining guilds.
    5000x1000px_sathrago_commission_ravenjuu_1.jpg?ex=665ce6c0&is=665b9540&hm=1fa03cbbd9ea4d641eaf4ca6f133d013d392b1968d6ca9add7d433259c509d09&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
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    FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited October 2020
    Seano wrote: »
    Jahlon wrote: »
    Given that there is a cooldown between changing citizenship...

    ...and a cooldown between changing families....

    You can bet there is going to be a cooldown on changing guilds

    Pretty condescending attitude to have. I try not to assume these things as that leads to misinformation and uninformed players (leading to disappointment in the game when they do play it). Not a good look for a content creator to have.

    He showed his reasoning with 2 reasons and followed that with "you can bet" (which clearly identifies an opinion). That is not misinformation. He identified his opinion. Also, he did not do it in a negative manner.

    Additionally, condescending in part refers to displaying superiority. I cannot see how you interpreted the statement like that at all.
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    Seano wrote: »
    Jahlon wrote: »
    Given that there is a cooldown between changing citizenship...

    ...and a cooldown between changing families....

    You can bet there is going to be a cooldown on changing guilds

    Pretty condescending attitude to have. I try not to assume these things as that leads to misinformation and uninformed players (leading to disappointment in the game when they do play it). Not a good look for a content creator to have.

    He showed his reasoning with 2 reasons and followed that with "you can bet" (which clearly identifies an opinion). That is not misinformation. He identified his opinion. Also, he did not do it in a negative manner.

    Additionally, condescending in part refers to displaying superiority. I cannot see how you interpreted the statement like that at all.

    I didn't say he was spreading misinformation, i was saying that i did not want to so that's why i made this thread to be clear about a mechanic, if it's already dealt with then that's fine but i think there should be a mechanic in the game to prevent this from happening. That's what the whole thread is about.

    Yes it damn well is condescending, he says it in a way as if people should already know these things and it's absurd to not assume guilds will also have the same treatment. He could of easily said "Citizenship and families have cooldowns so it's safe to assume guild will too." and everything would be fine, but he chose to be an ass.
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    FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited October 2020
    Seano wrote: »
    Yes it damn well is condescending, he says it in a way as if people should already know these things and it's absurd to not assume guilds will also have the same treatment.
    You filled in a lot of information that is simply not there and have become very aggressive over your interpretation of his statement.

    You took a response that I think many people would interpret as helpful information and derailed it into this. BTW, I won't be responding if you add anything else.
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    Do we have any info on what the Guild Buffs are going to be? Until they're tested, it's hard to say what exploits and workarounds people are going to use. You can't plan for everything - some tricks are always going to make it through.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Do we have any info on what the Guild Buffs are going to be? Until they're tested, it's hard to say what exploits and workarounds people are going to use. You can't plan for everything - some tricks are always going to make it through.

    Indeed.

    Unless the effects of these are fairly powerful, I don't expect people to swap out their guild just for them.

    This is especially true if a given guild is a patron of a node, or has particular in game assets that can be useful.
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    I like the Idea of a guild respec option, but as Steven said in Q&A I would not like to see it "gamed" for an immediate want, or need. I don't believe this will be an at launch issue. Maybe down the road it could be added in a way painfull enough that only a guild that needed to, would do it.
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    maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Hold up @Seano
    Nobody's attacking you, Jahlon really works hard at being a helpful knowledge base on these forums (he runs his Ashes101 series) - so don't misinterpret his intentions.

    I wish I were deep and tragic
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    FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    What we have is,
    Guild size can be traded off for guild progression.
    Guild progression grants skill points that the guild can allocate to unlock aspects of their skill tree, such as passive skills, augments and membership count.[2][18][19]

    Passive abilities increase certain stats relating to a guild member's ability to perform in combat or in other aspects of the guild, such as the economy.[2]
    It benefits guild members with a classification of officer or knight.[2]
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Guilds#Guild_progression

    It basically says that we can reduce guild size in trade for stat bonuses for guild members; and, those bonuses will apparently warrant giving up additional players. Also, the bonuses will continue to increase all the way down to a max guild size of 30-50.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Guilds#Guild_size

    I would think that stat bonuses on each player that justified dropping max guild size from 300 down to 50 (or 30) would probably be significant as that greatly reduces the zerg power and there needs to be a reason to do it.
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    Balrog21Balrog21 Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Before we all jump the gun we have no idea any of the guild perks yet. As per Maragret there will be a video coming soon showcasing some of them.
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    NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Guilds will always use the best
    Balrog21 wrote: »
    Before we all jump the gun we have no idea any of the guild perks yet. As per Maragret there will be a video coming soon showcasing some of them.

    That and node info on divine nodes
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
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    McShaveMcShave Member
    edited November 2020
    I would like to see how the guild perks benefit players. Would it make sense for a group of players to have several different guilds simultaneously based on the benefits of the perks? Like a guild for leveling, a guild for professions, a guild for combat, a guild for economics. How do you ensure that specializing into a large guild is a meaningful decision based on the tradeoff for character power without the guild perks being overpowered?

    When I think about the game's mechanics, numbers will always win. If you're party of 8 is losing to another party of 8, then just bring in another party. This is an advantage that a larger guild will always have over a smaller guild. And if you tried to raise the effectiveness of the players in a guild of 50 to the effectiveness of a guild of 300, then on a player vs player basis, a player in the guild of 50 will be super OP compared to a player in the guild of 300.
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    WarthWarth Member
    edited November 2020
    @McShave
    McShave wrote: »
    I would like to see how the guild perks benefit players. Would it make sense for a group of players to have several different guilds simultaneously based on the benefits of the perks? Like a guild for leveling, a guild for professions, a guild for combat, a guild for economics.

    Changing Node Citizenship has a Cooldown
    Changing Family has a Cooldown
    I don't see a reason why Guild swapping wouldn't have a cooldown as well.
    I'd personally make it a stacking Debuff.
    • 1. Guild Quit Within 3 Months -> 1 Day CD to join another Guild
    • 2. Guild Quit Within 3 Months -> 3 Days CD
    • 3. Guild Quit Within 3 Months -> 7 Days CD
    • 4. Guild Quit Within 3 Months -> 10 Days CD
    • 5. Guild Quit Within 3 Months -> 14 Days CD

    This would barely punish players who just got into the wrong guild by accident, which they want to leave behind, but increasingly punish active hoppers.
    McShave wrote: »
    How do you ensure that specializing into a large guild is a meaningful decision based on the tradeoff for character power without the guild perks being overpowered? When I think about the game's mechanics, numbers will always win. If you're party of 8 is losing to another party of 8, then just bring in another party. This is an advantage that a larger guild will always have over a smaller guild. And if you tried to raise the effectiveness of the players in a guild of 50 to the effectiveness of a guild of 300, then on a player vs player basis, a player in the guild of 50 will be super OP compared to a player in the guild of 300.

    I have thought about this for quite a bit, as someone who has been in the leadership roles of certain guilds himself. First of all, they don't want 50 People to beat 300, based on the guild buffs. They want to give meaningful incentives, that discourage you from joining a 300 Member Guild, as you lose out on varrying kinds of benefits.

    How I'd do it: Idea 1:

    An Escalating Reward Structure for Non-Size-Based Guilds, where the most meaningful (combat effective) buffs are only obtainable in the highest tier (guild that don't specc into Size at all). A quick, simplified example can be seen in the following picture:

    https://imgur.com/a/lcrUvBr

    This way, you wouldn't have OP people in the smaller guilds and fish in the bigger ones, but the People within the smaller guilds will have a much more convinient time progressing through the game, staying competitive and a slight edge in combat to offset the Ability to Call reinforcements from the bigger guilds.

    (Obviously the height of the buffs (5%, 10%, 20%) would have to be carefully balanced and the examples chosen are just meant as exactly that -> examples to show the diversity of buffs that could be given)
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    Warth wrote: »
    Changing Node Citizenship has a Cooldown
    Changing Family has a Cooldown
    I don't see a reason why Guild swapping wouldn't have a cooldown as well.
    I'd personally make it a stacking Debuff.
    • 1. Guild Quit Within 3 Months -> 1 Day CD to join another Guild
    • 2. Guild Quit Within 3 Months -> 3 Days CD
    • 3. Guild Quit Within 3 Months -> 7 Days CD
    • 4. Guild Quit Within 3 Months -> 10 Days CD
    • 5. Guild Quit Within 3 Months -> 14 Days CD

    This can work for player swapping, yes. But let's say my guild's main purpose is to dungeon delve and do the fun combat stuff. Will it then be optimal to have a different guild for our alts who will focus on professions, and then another guild for our alts who will be the tradespeople?

    Now I know that one person leveling 3 characters and guilds will be difficult because of the major time-sink involved, but there are no-lifers out there who will do it.
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    @McShave

    How I'd do it: Idea 2:

    An approach that's a little bit more open. (I personally prefer the Tiered System). This one would obviously provide more freedom of choice, where all guilds could mix and match as they want. You simply give them a certain total of talent points, while different Perks Cost different amounts of Talent Points to achieve.
    Each point you spend into size will take away the total amount of members you can have within the guild.

    https://imgur.com/a/BYMgDEC
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    McShave wrote: »
    Now I know that one person leveling 3 characters and guilds will be difficult because of the major time-sink involved, but there are no-lifers out there who will do it.

    ;)

    B)
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
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    McShave wrote: »
    This can work for player swapping, yes. But let's say my guild's main purpose is to dungeon delve and do the fun combat stuff. Will it then be optimal to have a different guild for our alts who will focus on professions, and then another guild for our alts who will be the tradespeople?

    Now I know that one person leveling 3 characters and guilds will be difficult because of the major time-sink involved, but there are no-lifers out there who will do it.

    Your gatherers should always be your adventurers, otherwise you'd just be a sitting duck once you have gathered the rare materials. Now you just have to put the Gathering buffs into the same perk as the processing and crafting buffs. Suddenly having alts in different guilds would become much less attractive, as you'd have to take the crafting perk on your mains anyway.
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    McShaveMcShave Member
    edited November 2020
    Warth wrote: »
    @McShave

    How I'd do it: Idea 2:

    An approach that's a little bit more open. (I personally prefer the Tiered System). This one would obviously provide more freedom of choice, where all guilds could mix and match as they want. You simply give them a certain total of talent points, while different Perks Cost different amounts of Talent Points to achieve.
    Each point you spend into size will take away the total amount of members you can have within the guild.

    https://imgur.com/a/BYMgDEC

    You have some very well thought out ideas! I had an idea where a guild has a choice to use a guild talent to increase their size, or they can use the talent for both a combat and a profession talents. This might be ok since having more numbers is more likely stronger than having both other talents, while also not forcing a group of players to have different guilds for different purposes. But then guilds who might spec into larger guild capacity will have the fear of missing out on all the other talents they could get, so at the end of the day, idk. Tough to say, really. I look forward to seeing what Steven and Intrepid have in mind for this.
    Warth wrote: »
    Your gatherers should always be your adventurers, otherwise you'd just be a sitting duck once you have gathered the rare materials.

    I agree with you here. Since dungeons and high level areas will have the better gatherable goods, your combat/ adventuring characters should be gatherers.
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