You know, I'm getting super conflicted about this race war.
On one hand, the Tulnar just can't be trusted to form a coherent society.
On the other hand, Nagash will obviously give in to The Others without hesitation.
Do I hate the Tulnar more than I hate Evil?
Also what happens if the Tulnar are vessels of The Other? Major plot twist for Nagash.
I wish I were deep and tragic
0
Options
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You know, I'm getting super conflicted about this race war.
On one hand, the Tulnar just can't be trusted to form a coherent society.
On the other hand, Nagash will obviously give in to The Others without hesitation.
Do I hate the Tulnar more than I hate Evil?
Also what happens if the Tulnar are vessels of The Other? Major plot twist for Nagash.
Then I wipe out the tulnar and the others and take their place. its a win win
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Do old dusty skeletons live in the dirt where they belong?
Hey I have towering mausoleums thank you very much you filth
"Towering" Yes, I see what you mean with "towering" *snickers* you mean those dirt hovels with reeds on the roof on the riverside dont you? Oh yes, mighty Necromancer please teach us to fear you *laughs*. Please send your 10 skelletons after us. We wil use their bone splinters to clean our teeth.
I won't take that from a species that hs spent the last 1000 years wallowing in filth, inbreeding and has done nothing but cower and hide from the harbingers. You were not wanted by the gods back then, and even to this day you are nothing but beings of need of extermination from the world of Verra, and I will happily oblige.
So yes call me all the insult you can beast for I am coming and I will never stop till you and your "race" are nothing more than dust under my legions feet for that is all you deserve.
"Wallowing in filth"? "Cower and hide"? We fought tooth and nail, while you got a celestial bailout from the gods. While you ran away we stayed and fought a guerillia war against the ancients and harbringers. We "were not wanted by the gods"?!? I SPIT ON YOUR GODS! THEY HAVE DONE NOTHING BUT BRING WAR AND SUFFERING UPON US!
You are nothing but a relic of the past, yearning after victories long gone. Your armies are but dust in the wind, your weapons rusted and broken. The giant pyramids of old are nothing but destroyed sarcophagi filled with long rotten corpses and demolished stone monstrosities.
You have no power here and you never will. THE FELLBLADE YEARNS FOR YOUR SOUL NECROMANCER AND ITR SHALL FEED UPON IT FOR MILLENIA!
You know, I'm getting super conflicted about this race war.
On one hand, the Tulnar just can't be trusted to form a coherent society.
On the other hand, Nagash will obviously give in to The Others without hesitation.
Do I hate the Tulnar more than I hate Evil?
Also what happens if the Tulnar are vessels of The Other? Major plot twist for Nagash.
Summary of things I think are important for Ashes Cities
-In general, the procedural generator should be calibrated to adhere to urban design principles
-Every city needs careful attention paid to its dominant public space
-I’d like to see not only racial variation in aesthetic, but also spatial typology
-That said, I think the single most important city design factor should be a unique and evocative location
-Finding a way to include ruins (a temporal element) would be awe inspiring, if implausibly difficult to automate
I'd be interested to hear your opinion on the temporal element in terms of the main racial contributor. If there was an originally Py'rai city that develops accordingly at its center that then became a Kaelar city for the next several tiers, creating a Py'rai center with Kaelar for the rest of the city, but for the last tier, it was Ren'kai, and suddenly all of the architecture is drastically different from the city layout? What would this mean in terms of the older buildings?
Or would the entire city, including the architecture change? That seems difficult on a level of, "Oh, crap, where'd my house go," but easier for the game designers.
What's your opinion on the implementation of something like this?
Summary of things I think are important for Ashes Cities
-In general, the procedural generator should be calibrated to adhere to urban design principles
-Every city needs careful attention paid to its dominant public space
-I’d like to see not only racial variation in aesthetic, but also spatial typology
-That said, I think the single most important city design factor should be a unique and evocative location
-Finding a way to include ruins (a temporal element) would be awe inspiring, if implausibly difficult to automate
I'd be interested to hear your opinion on the temporal element in terms of the main racial contributor. If there was an originally Py'rai city that develops accordingly at its center that then became a Kaelar city for the next several tiers, creating a Py'rai center with Kaelar for the rest of the city, but for the last tier, it was Ren'kai, and suddenly all of the architecture is drastically different from the city layout? What would this mean in terms of the older buildings?
Or would the entire city, including the architecture change? That seems difficult on a level of, "Oh, crap, where'd my house go," but easier for the game designers.
What's your opinion on the implementation of something like this?
You and Dygz bring up a great point about the changing nature of the city - and I don't think it's even specific to my proposal. A lot will depend on how the tools Intrepid is working with function as nodes grows, because you could run into the same shuffled streetscape issue even if they are using template, flat ground cities by racial type (which is all we have seen so far in previews)
My instinct would be that the entire city would be replaced as you described. Big growing pains, but I think maintaining the city identity by racial type would be important for having well sculpted environments. In theory, every version is well designed, it'll just be a matter of adapting to the new form.
You could also imagine the city type being locked in around stage 3 or 4, and the ensuing growth will be locked into whatever it was the prevent the massive shifts in type.
A compromise I saw that I thought was very clever was that at stage 3 or 4, the spatial type becomes 'locked in.' So if the city is Vek at stage 3, it will always be the linear type. If there is a sudden wave of immigration as the city moves to stage 4, 5, and 6, the city will continue to grow along the line type, but the new buildings will be reflective of the new dominant race. This sounds like it'd be plausible with the procedural generation type tools they've alluded to, but would result in a much more cosmopolitan city. Cosmopolitanism is kind of cool, but I'm not sure that's the vibe they'd want to convey (if that were the case, you could even break up the % of each type of buildings by demographics, but that's a little more extreme.) It seems like they want distinctly characterized racial types.
A lot depends on a lot of factors I can't peer into yet, like the way cities grow, the pace of growth, how racial differences manifest. Speculating a bit about growth events, we know that it should be fairly rapid for a city to reach 3-4, until it bumps into another ZOI. I think it's fair to assume racial makeup of contribution isn't going to change dramatically in a short period. So, after the initial mad rush in the early game, the form of most cities in the world will be fairly set, until a major disruption like a metropolis being razed occurs, at which point things start to grow to fill the void.
If the city had remained fairly stable in population, the racial makeup should still be the same, and grow accordingly, advancing to a new tier within the same spatial typology. But, if the racial makeup of the city changed significantly (perhaps as a result of a mass exodus or wave of refugees from the aforementioned siege) then it does seem fair that the form of the city would change significantly, too. I suppose what I'm saying is, if the city's layout changes dramatically, it's likely as a function of dramatic events. It's less likely for a sudden shift in layout over the course of natural growth. So maybe the entire city being replaced isn't so bad?
I think to address a world where "no two cities are alike" they could have some fun with introducing an actual, you know, address system. Have signs for road names and number the buildings on each block.
This will give players the ability to give and receive directions to each other and even help immerse you into the game.
Hell maybe even a mailing system linked to npc caravans or letters by pigeon could work.
I think that's a really fun idea! Anything to help navigate the city without the satellite map windows open. Imagine having to actually address a letter to send mail. Too fiddly for an MMO, probably, but fun to think about.
Tulnar, as in all facets, remain a big mystery. You can imagine all sort of oddities from living underground and in the dark (vertical cities, different attitudes about public lightning, etc ~drow type stuff) but we just don't know yet. I'm also really interested in what their architecture will look like, since it might be a hazy glimpse into the world before.
3
Options
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2020
You took that way more seriously than I did
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
My instinct would be that the entire city would be replaced as you described. Big growing pains, but I think maintaining the city identity by racial type would be important for having well sculpted environments. In theory, every version is well designed, it'll just be a matter of adapting to the new form.
See, now that you bring up environments, I'm thinking about how different cultural styles of houses might swap in certain areas and still manage to both a) fit their previous space and b) retain typical characteristics. For example, Vek architecture doesn't really seem to have "roof floors" like in Kaelen architecture, where the attic space is tall enough to totally be usable space, like a bedroom or something.
That seems... rough to me for players who suddenly find themselves down a floor or possibly just with less space. Moving from Kaelen to Vek might remove the floor, but it could probably be made to just expand the attic space into a full floor.
However, from Vek to Kaelen, is my floor suddenly half as small? If I had a tall cabinet against the nicely vertical wall of the room, how is that going to work in my now-triangular attic space? Things like that.
That's a pretty specific example, but I think it illustrates my point. Anyway, just wondering what you make of possible solutions to such a thing.
As for the environment, in your original post (which was amazing), you brought up, for example:
I'm curious how that might interact with your proposed racial layouts in an area where they may have been a nice cliff ledge to create a Niküa boardwalk promenade, but not nearly enough "straight" sections for a Ren'kai parade grounds.
And a reminder that your architecture is amazing and I am in awe. (:
0
Options
AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Tulnar, as in all facets, remain a big mystery. You can imagine all sort of oddities from living underground and in the dark (vertical cities, different attitudes about public lightning, etc ~drow type stuff) but we just don't know yet. I'm also really interested in what their architecture will look like, since it might be a hazy glimpse into the world before.
I imagine the Tulnar live in the medieval equivalent of a trailer park...
1
Options
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Tulnar, as in all facets, remain a big mystery. You can imagine all sort of oddities from living underground and in the dark (vertical cities, different attitudes about public lightning, etc ~drow type stuff) but we just don't know yet. I'm also really interested in what their architecture will look like, since it might be a hazy glimpse into the world before.
I imagine the Tulnar live in the medieval equivalent of a trailer park...
Or the ruins of the nodes
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Tulnar, as in all facets, remain a big mystery. You can imagine all sort of oddities from living underground and in the dark (vertical cities, different attitudes about public lightning, etc ~drow type stuff) but we just don't know yet. I'm also really interested in what their architecture will look like, since it might be a hazy glimpse into the world before.
I imagine the Tulnar live in the medieval equivalent of a trailer park...
Or the ruins of the nodes
Tulnar Cities:
Nagash's Home:
0
Options
AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It's funny, those Tulnar city concept art pieces just remind me of this:
Which, you know, is both good and bad I guess.
0
Options
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Tulnar, as in all facets, remain a big mystery. You can imagine all sort of oddities from living underground and in the dark (vertical cities, different attitudes about public lightning, etc ~drow type stuff) but we just don't know yet. I'm also really interested in what their architecture will look like, since it might be a hazy glimpse into the world before.
I imagine the Tulnar live in the medieval equivalent of a trailer park...
Or the ruins of the nodes
Tulnar Cities:
Nagash's Home:
I have to say if tulnar cities look like that I would maybe take over a few and make some "improvements"
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Tulnar, as in all facets, remain a big mystery. You can imagine all sort of oddities from living underground and in the dark (vertical cities, different attitudes about public lightning, etc ~drow type stuff) but we just don't know yet. I'm also really interested in what their architecture will look like, since it might be a hazy glimpse into the world before.
I imagine the Tulnar live in the medieval equivalent of a trailer park...
Or the ruins of the nodes
Tulnar Cities:
Nagash's Home:
I have to say if tulnar cities look like that I would maybe take over a few and make some "improvements"
My instinct would be that the entire city would be replaced as you described. Big growing pains, but I think maintaining the city identity by racial type would be important for having well sculpted environments. In theory, every version is well designed, it'll just be a matter of adapting to the new form.
See, now that you bring up environments, I'm thinking about how different cultural styles of houses might swap in certain areas and still manage to both a) fit their previous space and b) retain typical characteristics. For example, Vek architecture doesn't really seem to have "roof floors" like in Kaelen architecture, where the attic space is tall enough to totally be usable space, like a bedroom or something.
That seems... rough to me for players who suddenly find themselves down a floor or possibly just with less space. Moving from Kaelen to Vek might remove the floor, but it could probably be made to just expand the attic space into a full floor.
However, from Vek to Kaelen, is my floor suddenly half as small? If I had a tall cabinet against the nicely vertical wall of the room, how is that going to work in my now-triangular attic space? Things like that.
That's a pretty specific example, but I think it illustrates my point. Anyway, just wondering what you make of possible solutions to such a thing.
As for the environment, in your original post (which was amazing), you brought up, for example:
I'm curious how that might interact with your proposed racial layouts in an area where they may have been a nice cliff ledge to create a Niküa boardwalk promenade, but not nearly enough "straight" sections for a Ren'kai parade grounds.
And a reminder that your architecture is amazing and I am in awe. (:
That's a really interesting thought. Buildings getting swapped out is another one of those oddities that'll exist with or without the specific racial spatial types. I can imagine a few possible ways of addressing it -
The cosmopolitan method I talked about before would cover it, in that once a Vek building is built, it stays a Vek building regardless of the growth of the rest of the city. It just gets larger. It would affect the potential character of the city as a whole though.
You could have a palette of specific interiors - tier 4 hour A, tier 2 shop B, and so on. Then, the building shell is adapted to fit the requirements of the interior. So in the roof example you gave, maybe the humans have a big attic, while the Vek have a rooftop garden. This route seems like a whole lot of work and big restrictions on the artists for the small payoff of not having your furniture flying around on a tier change.
What seems more likely is just trying to ensure that as tiers change, your square footage goes up. Everything else is subject to change. It does kind of suck your furniture layout will get stuffed into a chest, but as I talk through this I'm convincing myself the ephemerality of nodes is a feature rather than a problem. You make something cool, and it lasts as long as the node does - whether growth or destruction you'll have to put it together again later. I suppose that might mean reputations of establishments will be more tied to people than to spaces, which seems neat too. You go to a tavern on the reputation of its owner's design tastes, rather than the specific manifestation.
That also goes me some interesting thoughts about possibilities for racial variations in interior architecture. I've mostly written about large scale urban design type stuff, but it'll also be interesting to think about the different occupiable spaces within the cities - the differences between a courtyard house, or a narrow townhouse, or a sprawling estate or whatever.
And thank you for the positivity
I enjoy thinking out and talking about all these oddities that pop up
As for the problems with having not enough space to fit the spatial variation in, I think that'd be the fun and interesting part of node design. That step that'll take them from the archetype into a unique and memorable place to be.
Vek, for example, have the linear type shaped by the position of the sun and moons, but I could also imagine them having to adapt their pathways to fit inside a canyon, or build a causeway extending into the ocean, or carving gaps in the trees to see the stars. The essence of the city stays the same - a big linear walkway with points of interest dotted along the length, but the specific manifestation is unique to the location.
The racial spatial type - and indeed, the archetype as a whole - is a jumping off point, allowing the city proper to be designed on a case by case basis. It's that step I think is the most important for making the cities memorable. I've talked a lot about racial types, but I stand by making the cities beholden to their sites as the most essential
Ironforge is a terrible design for a city and an excellent design for a factory. That being said, I have a problem with the idea of a city designed according to a strict cultural typology. Physical spaces are informed by and have a specific relationship to the site, this is true across all cultural vernaculars of design. So for example a Vek city on a river would probably resemble a Tulnar city on a river on a first order scale, the differences would occur in interstitial spaces where cultural idiosyncratic activities would occur, this would organically create second order spaces like plazas, squares, green spaces, etc. So you think of the movement of the daily life of an individual or group of individuals of a particular culture, and you can plot out how these spaces would develop over time or even by strict plannning due to a highly organized social function ( you mentioned religion or celestial observation by the vek. Your post is interesting and I like where you are going with it.
Comments
On one hand, the Tulnar just can't be trusted to form a coherent society.
On the other hand, Nagash will obviously give in to The Others without hesitation.
Do I hate the Tulnar more than I hate Evil?
Also what happens if the Tulnar are vessels of The Other? Major plot twist for Nagash.
Then I wipe out the tulnar and the others and take their place. its a win win
"Wallowing in filth"? "Cower and hide"? We fought tooth and nail, while you got a celestial bailout from the gods. While you ran away we stayed and fought a guerillia war against the ancients and harbringers. We "were not wanted by the gods"?!? I SPIT ON YOUR GODS! THEY HAVE DONE NOTHING BUT BRING WAR AND SUFFERING UPON US!
You are nothing but a relic of the past, yearning after victories long gone. Your armies are but dust in the wind, your weapons rusted and broken. The giant pyramids of old are nothing but destroyed sarcophagi filled with long rotten corpses and demolished stone monstrosities.
You have no power here and you never will. THE FELLBLADE YEARNS FOR YOUR SOUL NECROMANCER AND ITR SHALL FEED UPON IT FOR MILLENIA!
But for real though lets not derail an otherwise really well made thread.
There is no race war between Tulnar and Necromancers. There is a war between Tulnar and bad Necromancers aka @Nagash
So, we kill them both. Problem solved.
Oh no I know I will be but tulnars are first on the list
I'd be interested to hear your opinion on the temporal element in terms of the main racial contributor. If there was an originally Py'rai city that develops accordingly at its center that then became a Kaelar city for the next several tiers, creating a Py'rai center with Kaelar for the rest of the city, but for the last tier, it was Ren'kai, and suddenly all of the architecture is drastically different from the city layout? What would this mean in terms of the older buildings?
Or would the entire city, including the architecture change? That seems difficult on a level of, "Oh, crap, where'd my house go," but easier for the game designers.
What's your opinion on the implementation of something like this?
You and Dygz bring up a great point about the changing nature of the city - and I don't think it's even specific to my proposal. A lot will depend on how the tools Intrepid is working with function as nodes grows, because you could run into the same shuffled streetscape issue even if they are using template, flat ground cities by racial type (which is all we have seen so far in previews)
My instinct would be that the entire city would be replaced as you described. Big growing pains, but I think maintaining the city identity by racial type would be important for having well sculpted environments. In theory, every version is well designed, it'll just be a matter of adapting to the new form.
You could also imagine the city type being locked in around stage 3 or 4, and the ensuing growth will be locked into whatever it was the prevent the massive shifts in type.
A compromise I saw that I thought was very clever was that at stage 3 or 4, the spatial type becomes 'locked in.' So if the city is Vek at stage 3, it will always be the linear type. If there is a sudden wave of immigration as the city moves to stage 4, 5, and 6, the city will continue to grow along the line type, but the new buildings will be reflective of the new dominant race. This sounds like it'd be plausible with the procedural generation type tools they've alluded to, but would result in a much more cosmopolitan city. Cosmopolitanism is kind of cool, but I'm not sure that's the vibe they'd want to convey (if that were the case, you could even break up the % of each type of buildings by demographics, but that's a little more extreme.) It seems like they want distinctly characterized racial types.
A lot depends on a lot of factors I can't peer into yet, like the way cities grow, the pace of growth, how racial differences manifest. Speculating a bit about growth events, we know that it should be fairly rapid for a city to reach 3-4, until it bumps into another ZOI. I think it's fair to assume racial makeup of contribution isn't going to change dramatically in a short period. So, after the initial mad rush in the early game, the form of most cities in the world will be fairly set, until a major disruption like a metropolis being razed occurs, at which point things start to grow to fill the void.
If the city had remained fairly stable in population, the racial makeup should still be the same, and grow accordingly, advancing to a new tier within the same spatial typology. But, if the racial makeup of the city changed significantly (perhaps as a result of a mass exodus or wave of refugees from the aforementioned siege) then it does seem fair that the form of the city would change significantly, too. I suppose what I'm saying is, if the city's layout changes dramatically, it's likely as a function of dramatic events. It's less likely for a sudden shift in layout over the course of natural growth. So maybe the entire city being replaced isn't so bad?
I think that's a really fun idea! Anything to help navigate the city without the satellite map windows open. Imagine having to actually address a letter to send mail. Too fiddly for an MMO, probably, but fun to think about.
Tulnar, as in all facets, remain a big mystery. You can imagine all sort of oddities from living underground and in the dark (vertical cities, different attitudes about public lightning, etc ~drow type stuff) but we just don't know yet. I'm also really interested in what their architecture will look like, since it might be a hazy glimpse into the world before.
See, now that you bring up environments, I'm thinking about how different cultural styles of houses might swap in certain areas and still manage to both a) fit their previous space and b) retain typical characteristics. For example, Vek architecture doesn't really seem to have "roof floors" like in Kaelen architecture, where the attic space is tall enough to totally be usable space, like a bedroom or something.
That seems... rough to me for players who suddenly find themselves down a floor or possibly just with less space. Moving from Kaelen to Vek might remove the floor, but it could probably be made to just expand the attic space into a full floor.
However, from Vek to Kaelen, is my floor suddenly half as small? If I had a tall cabinet against the nicely vertical wall of the room, how is that going to work in my now-triangular attic space? Things like that.
That's a pretty specific example, but I think it illustrates my point. Anyway, just wondering what you make of possible solutions to such a thing.
As for the environment, in your original post (which was amazing), you brought up, for example: I'm curious how that might interact with your proposed racial layouts in an area where they may have been a nice cliff ledge to create a Niküa boardwalk promenade, but not nearly enough "straight" sections for a Ren'kai parade grounds.
And a reminder that your architecture is amazing and I am in awe. (:
Or the ruins of the nodes
Tulnar Cities:
Nagash's Home:
Which, you know, is both good and bad I guess.
I have to say if tulnar cities look like that I would maybe take over a few and make some "improvements"
Could do with a few nice lights here and there.
That's a really interesting thought. Buildings getting swapped out is another one of those oddities that'll exist with or without the specific racial spatial types. I can imagine a few possible ways of addressing it -
The cosmopolitan method I talked about before would cover it, in that once a Vek building is built, it stays a Vek building regardless of the growth of the rest of the city. It just gets larger. It would affect the potential character of the city as a whole though.
You could have a palette of specific interiors - tier 4 hour A, tier 2 shop B, and so on. Then, the building shell is adapted to fit the requirements of the interior. So in the roof example you gave, maybe the humans have a big attic, while the Vek have a rooftop garden. This route seems like a whole lot of work and big restrictions on the artists for the small payoff of not having your furniture flying around on a tier change.
What seems more likely is just trying to ensure that as tiers change, your square footage goes up. Everything else is subject to change. It does kind of suck your furniture layout will get stuffed into a chest, but as I talk through this I'm convincing myself the ephemerality of nodes is a feature rather than a problem. You make something cool, and it lasts as long as the node does - whether growth or destruction you'll have to put it together again later. I suppose that might mean reputations of establishments will be more tied to people than to spaces, which seems neat too. You go to a tavern on the reputation of its owner's design tastes, rather than the specific manifestation.
That also goes me some interesting thoughts about possibilities for racial variations in interior architecture. I've mostly written about large scale urban design type stuff, but it'll also be interesting to think about the different occupiable spaces within the cities - the differences between a courtyard house, or a narrow townhouse, or a sprawling estate or whatever.
And thank you for the positivity
I enjoy thinking out and talking about all these oddities that pop up
Vek, for example, have the linear type shaped by the position of the sun and moons, but I could also imagine them having to adapt their pathways to fit inside a canyon, or build a causeway extending into the ocean, or carving gaps in the trees to see the stars. The essence of the city stays the same - a big linear walkway with points of interest dotted along the length, but the specific manifestation is unique to the location.
The racial spatial type - and indeed, the archetype as a whole - is a jumping off point, allowing the city proper to be designed on a case by case basis. It's that step I think is the most important for making the cities memorable. I've talked a lot about racial types, but I stand by making the cities beholden to their sites as the most essential