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Spells: Cast Speed vs Progression

maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
edited November 2020 in General Discussion
You can generally put spells into two groups:
  • PogChamp once every 10 minute spells
  • Bread butter, low cooldown spells

I don't mind if my 10min cd spells take a bit longer to cast - because they are usually pretty epic spells so it makes sense.

But I don't like my bread-and-butter spells forcing me to stand still for 2 seconds every 5 steps I take.
So I'd prefer if the latter were minimalistic and simple and not fancy (in terms of cast animation time)


HOWEVER


What about when you first learn a new spell?
When I consider the experience of picking up new spells - the first time you learn a spell is a moment where you are mesmerised by the newness of the spell - which conflicts with minimalistic and simple design, so I can understand the desire for a spell to be fancy at the beginning of its use.

This has implications for the progression of a spell:
Can we have spells that are fancy when we first acquire them, but they progress to minimal and simple spells as we get stronger?
Augments? Spell Experience?
I wish I were deep and tragic

Comments

  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Too soon to tell my man.

    Here is some example information, but I have not seen details on cast times, CDs or "Rotations"
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Mage

    My intuition is that mages will have to stand still to cast most things, but who knows?
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    This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
  • SathragoSathrago Member, Alpha Two
    I definitely support cast times being for powerful spells and instant casts/short casts for your regular rotation spells. This is one thing that WoW did that caused a ton of issues. Just look back at PoM Pyro mages.
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  • Im_MeiIm_Mei Member, Alpha Two
    How about you can find knowledge about your spells, like you explore an ancient ruin and find a scroll from an old archmage that was trying to perfect ''Fireball'', you read it and with your newfound knowledge it gets reduced cd, or becomes more mana efficient, or something like that.
    Adds an endgame activity and further incentive to very deeply explore the world.
    Same with a legendary assassin about stealth or bards about their instrument and so on.
    Although idk if thats too much considering we already have augments and ability to invest more deeply into spells.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited November 2020
    How about a stance system for mages?
    Stance 1: casting speed -50%, damage -25%, interruptchance on hit +25% (lower cast, less dmg, higher chance of being interrupted)
    Stance 2: casting speed +50% , damage +25%, interruptchance on hit -25% (longer cast, more dmg, lower chance of being interrupted)

    You can always cancel the stance, but that would then set it on a cd.
    a6XEiIf.gif
  • CrosimCrosim Member, Alpha Two
    Hurtmei wrote: »
    How about you can find knowledge about your spells, like you explore an ancient ruin and find a scroll from an old archmage that was trying to perfect ''Fireball'', you read it and with your newfound knowledge it gets reduced cd, or becomes more mana efficient, or something like that.
    Adds an endgame activity and further incentive to very deeply explore the world.
    Same with a legendary assassin about stealth or bards about their instrument and so on.
    Although idk if thats too much considering we already have augments and ability to invest more deeply into spells.

    I feel like that thing sounds super exciting in theory, but when you get your second or third character leveled up, the notion of needing to collect half a dozen 'things' seems like an extra annoyance barring the player for jumping into endgame content. Especially when you take into context the time of travel if you have to do a 'world tour' to get them. One thing i have always wanted more of, is end game customization of spells and effects. Like, unlocking a secret tome to make your fire spells blue or something (thats just a broad example, I know color of spells is often important in game design for ability recognition)
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @Hurtmei
    Oh, I didn't think about tying it to questing - that would be a different take and definitely something all arcane classes would aim for. But I'm not really interested in cooldowns or mana cost here, I'm more thinking about the fluidity of how long it takes to perform a cast animation when you're on the move.

    @Damokles
    That's an interesting idea - but stance 1 would need more bonuses otherwise nobody would use it (unless interruptchance became a priority stat for arcane classes)
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    maouw wrote: »
    @Hurtmei
    Oh, I didn't think about tying it to questing - that would be a different take and definitely something all arcane classes would aim for. But I'm not really interested in cooldowns or mana cost here, I'm more thinking about the fluidity of how long it takes to perform a cast animation when you're on the move.

    @Damokles
    That's an interesting idea - but stance 1 would need more bonuses otherwise nobody would use it (unless interruptchance became a priority stat for arcane classes)

    I imagine it more like a total DoT class, where you really rely on all that ticking DoT damage, then switch into the other stance after reaching that point, where you can keep up the stack without letting it deteriorate.

    Example:
    A Mage with a burn DoT, it can stack up to 20 times and keeps the latest duration. You use the first stance to stack the DoT, then switch over into the heavy hitter stance, where you weave the DoT into the rotation to keep it up.
    a6XEiIf.gif
  • Lore DynamicLore Dynamic Member, Alpha Two
    Hurtmei wrote: »
    How about you can find knowledge about your spells, like you explore an ancient ruin and find a scroll from an old archmage that was trying to perfect ''Fireball'', you read it and with your newfound knowledge it gets reduced cd, or becomes more mana efficient, or something like that.
    Adds an endgame activity and further incentive to very deeply explore the world.
    Same with a legendary assassin about stealth or bards about their instrument and so on.
    Although idk if thats too much considering we already have augments and ability to invest more deeply into spells.

    This makes me wonder:

    Does anyone happen to know how new spells/skills are 'acquired'?

    Will it be like WoW, when you level-up: then "poof" you fantastimagically just 'know' how to cast X-spell or perform X-skill?
    Or will their be Class trainers (at nearby nodes perhaps), who we'll have to train with to understand how to properly use/perform the new spells & skills?


    Steven Sharif is my James Halliday (Anorak)

    Lore-Banner-Ao-C.png

    “That is not dead which can eternal lie,
    And with strange aeons even death may die.”

    -HPL
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Hurtmei wrote: »
    How about you can find knowledge about your spells, like you explore an ancient ruin and find a scroll from an old archmage that was trying to perfect ''Fireball'', you read it and with your newfound knowledge it gets reduced cd, or becomes more mana efficient, or something like that.
    Adds an endgame activity and further incentive to very deeply explore the world.
    Same with a legendary assassin about stealth or bards about their instrument and so on.
    Although idk if thats too much considering we already have augments and ability to invest more deeply into spells.

    This makes me wonder:

    Does anyone happen to know how new spells/skills are 'acquired'?

    Will it be like WoW, when you level-up: then "poof" you fantastimagically just 'know' how to cast X-spell or perform X-skill?
    Or will their be Class trainers (at nearby nodes perhaps), who we'll have to train with to understand how to properly use/perform the new spells & skills?

    I don't know if they have ever mentioned trainers. Current, you get skill points that you can use to buy and upgrade skills. Once you buy a skill with a skill point, you have it.

    It might be nice if this was tied to trainers though. You get skill points as you level and have to go to a trainer to spend them.
  • McShaveMcShave Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I like the idea of the more you use a spell, the faster you can cast it.

    Also I like how WoW does casting spells. Most cast times are less than a second, lasting about the time of your global cooldown timer. I don't think I'd be ok with everyone running around not having pause to cast things, even if its just a really short cast time.
  • Lore DynamicLore Dynamic Member, Alpha Two

    I don't know if they have ever mentioned trainers. Current, you get skill points that you can use to buy and upgrade skills. Once you buy a skill with a skill point, you have it.

    It might be nice if this was tied to trainers though. You get skill points as you level and have to go to a trainer to spend them.

    Ah! That absolutely makes sense. Thank you. :)
    And I also like the idea of have some adept NPC to interact with as well. It would help to make Verra feel more alive. And less: stats/points/numbers.


    Steven Sharif is my James Halliday (Anorak)

    Lore-Banner-Ao-C.png

    “That is not dead which can eternal lie,
    And with strange aeons even death may die.”

    -HPL
  • Im_MeiIm_Mei Member, Alpha Two
    @Crosim Well i dont think people are gonna minmax on 3+ character really, seems like too big of a time investment.
  • AmmaAmma Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Hurtmei wrote: »
    @Crosim Well i dont think people are gonna minmax on 3+ character really, seems like too big of a time investment.

    What du you mean, not leveling 64 classes? :-)
  • Im_MeiIm_Mei Member, Alpha Two
    Level maybe, but not try to stay competetive :D
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    McShave wrote: »
    I like the idea of the more you use a spell, the faster you can cast it.

    Also I like how WoW does casting spells. Most cast times are less than a second, lasting about the time of your global cooldown timer. I don't think I'd be ok with everyone running around not having pause to cast things, even if its just a really short cast time.

    Yeah! Spell proficiency!
    idk, it just makes sense to me that the more you do something, the better you get at doing it and the more used to the spell you become.

    For adept NPC/job instructors - I've had a good experience and a bad experience.

    Buying skills is weird. My bad experience was in Outward where there were specific NPCs you would buy skills from on the otherside of the world. I wouldn't mind it if the skills were much better than what you have access to in your hometown - but they were pretty lacklustre and I felt I'd wasted my time travelling there to be disappointed at my options (exorbitant prices too... did I say buying skills was weird?)

    My favourite experience has been Maplestory's job instructors - who send you on a quest to prove you are worthy to advance your class, and doing so unlocks a full package of skill options to tinker with.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • CrosimCrosim Member, Alpha Two
    Hurtmei wrote: »
    @Crosim Well i dont think people are gonna minmax on 3+ character really, seems like too big of a time investment.

    I am confused by this? It didn't seem like what you were suggesting was something that changed and needed to be chased? As in if your third character gets capped on week three or year three, its still a chore?

    I see quite a few people making multiple capped characters by sheer virtue of how professions work? Nobody is going to be breeding my mounts but me!! .... wait ....
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