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Item Use/Access Limitations - Dev Disc #24 reimagined

NeurotoxinNeurotoxin Member, Alpha One
edited November 2020 in General Discussion
I'd like to offer a different way to ask about gear access and use. Given that players will aid other players, including higher level players passing hand-me-downs or good lower-level items they come across to their friends and allies, what are the limits on use that we would want to have imposed to prevent characters from using items outside their expected content range, or what would you use to determine the parameters of item limitation in general?

A few solutions, some which were brought up in the original post:

-Imposing numeric limits, such as character level, applicable skill level, and/or attribute level.

-Limiting effectiveness, where a player may use a more powerful item, but it will be weighted to perform as an item of their level. This was also suggested to potentially increase durability loss as the character isn't able to use it to its maximum potential.

-Gray items aren't very powerful, and anything worth using is bind on pickup or bind on trade from the crafter/vendor.

-No limit, but gear makes up far less of the character's overall power. Scarcity of higher quality items is part of the limit.

-Higher quality gear is the result of a risky enchantment system that can de-level, damage, or destroy the item on a failed enchantment upgrade. This creates a sort of prohibitive economic barrier to obtaining higher quality items.

-If we don't want forced bind on pickup, but also don't want too much hand-me-down stuff, we can make part of the equipment system to have gear customized to a character. This would be like reshaping plates, redistributing scales or chain sections, rebalancing weapons for the individual's and shape and grip preference, etc. When it has been customized to a character, it either cannot be customized again for another user, or the cost would be much higher for get it for the next person.

Given this outlook to the idea of arming players at different levels/power/progress with better gear, what would you prefer to see the team do on this subject?

Comments

  • KatakKatak Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited November 2020
    Thank you for extracting this issue out and making it less of a Yes/No debate. This is very much not something that can easily be dumped into two buckets.

    I responded on the Dev Discussion thread, but I will put my general idea here for more visibility as well:

    'Make the player's level and social status in their node determine the total 'value' of gear that they can wear.

    If they want to go commando in order to wield a powerful sword that is technically out of their reach normally, that seems fine, as they will have reduced defenses for it. This is also fairly inline with gearing new characters in Pathfinder/D&D.'

    What this means is that the amount of activity you've had on the character directly influences its ability to wield better gear.

    A brand new character wouldn't be able to use as much overpowered gear as an alternate character that you've invested time in to complete node quests and gain reputation.

    I believe that this option provides a solid middle ground between allowing powerful items to be used on new characters or be gifted to friends without flat out restricting it or making those characters overly powerful.

    Edit: Removing comment about this being along the lines of the fourth example in your list. I read that one too quickly.
  • Thanks for the thread I had similar thoughts about this as I saw way too many people writing off the idea of overgearing without seeing the different versions and merits they could provide.

    My take is that a traditional level requirement should be placed on gear, and then said low level gear can receive high level augments, enchants, and the player can receive high level consumables.

    This does multiple things at once. Firstly, it gives players the ability to level an alt in a faster manner than a new player. Balance is key so a bit of work goes a long way for this as a sort of psuedo-hierloom armor without the exp buffs.

    Number two, the ability allows low level players to incest in a piece of gear so that it performs past its required level, granting more varied choice in gear and possibly being a long term efficient investment.

    And last of all, the entire idea feeds into the economy as another method for artisans to make coin and players to use up materials that they would otherwise sell for profit.

    The TL;DR of this: place restrictions on gear by level and remove or limit any restrictions on level for consumables. Enchants, augments, and basically any sort of "power increase" that could be gained outside of the character class.
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  • daodao Member
    edited November 2020
    @Neurotoxin You did not carry forward your ideas on reshaping armor to a new character. With that process there is room to tweak any number of character level constrained attributes. I would love to hear that explored or expanded on.

    The Lineage, Aion, and Black Desert heritage of MMOs does indeed have a gambling element as core to de-level and/or to provide a financial risk to upgrading existing equipment. It is a frustrating system to some (the downgrade system is particularly brutal in Black Desert), but others seem to enjoy it.

    In Black Desert they provide an alternative, allowing those pieces to be purchased. Players can go a slow but sure route and simply save up to buy. They make no attempt to regulate how that equipment is used, and some item pieces (excluding class specific items -- though they have trade coupons for that too now) can be passed to other characters in a player's "family" (roster of alts) freely. It seems to work in that game, i've never heard anyone complain about it. One key consequence however is there really is no viable PvP below a certain gear score. I much prefer systems where PvP is both viable and has a purpose starting from character level zero.

    All this said, i'm far more in favor of systems that place character and player skill over the gear they use.
  • NeurotoxinNeurotoxin Member, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    Ahh good point dao I've added that to the OP.

    To extrapolate on that slightly, I think a good way to go is that weaker items can gain potential as they’re used, and that potential represents capacity for enchantment and upgrades to be applied to the item. Using the rule I’ve seen in games like Ogre Battle for SNES/PS1 and Pokemon, if you level an item from the lowly level 1 all the way to max level, it is in fact the most powerful that it can be barring any attribute-enhancement items being used.

    This doesn’t mean there can’t be legendary item drops or legendary items crafted that are above the global “maximum” gear score that any item may have, but they’ll be 100% fixed and unchangeable so the hope is that they’ll fit well with many builds or present a build opportunity that normal items cannot provide. In that case, a lower gear score legendary will automatically fill in its potential as the gear score rises, where a standard item would allow the player to choose what suits them best.

    I think the intent would be that players in end-game scenarios use a blend of build-specific legendary items and heavily specialized common items to make the most effective builds for their role or play style, and their group’s roles and play styles.

    Edit: In addition, I think the customization system can work with other systems, and can also be part of how killing a bad player and taking any gear becomes a greater economic decision. One could grab it with the intent to resell the customized item back to the corrupted player once they're clear again, but if they intend to use it, they'll need to pay the substantial resource and/or labor fees to customize it to their shape and preferences.
  • McShaveMcShave Member
    edited November 2020
    I like how Ashes won't have much BoE/ BoP items, besides really really good items, as it gives items reusability. I like the idea of repairing grandad's old gear and being able to use it (like your main's old gear being used for alts or other guild members). And by repair here, I don't mean mold or make new, just the regular repair for damaged gear that Intrepid has mentioned.

    As for power restrictions, I think the tried and true method of character level restrictions is an easy, yet effective method to make sure lower leveled characters don't get too strong. Make sure end game gear is reserved for end game players, and maybe restrict gear every 10 or 15 levels, or whatever is found to be best during testing.

    In my post on the official dev discussion, I mentioned the possibility of scaling gear that gives a boost to XP earned that can be purchased or crafted for alt characters (like heirlooms in WoW). I don't know if I'd like to see it in this game, but I think it's worth mentioning.
  • Hiya! In the original Dev Discussion thread, we certainly didn't mean to dump folks into one of two buckets - hence why we asked "what's your view", so you all could feel free to expand on it in whichever way you'd like! That being said, we definitely appreciate seeing some of the additional follow-up here on how to reframe possibilities for overgearing, which on its own likely has some immediate negative connotations for certain folks <3
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  • Sathrago wrote: »
    My take is that a traditional level requirement should be placed on gear, and then said low level gear can receive high level augments, enchants, and the player can receive high level consumables.

    Agreed. Your idea for further augmenting low level items would also give some horizontal qualities to crafting professions too.

    I imagine the absence of an auction house would also establish another economic dimension for helping gear alts.
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