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Lore Discussion - Rogue Ancients

If you haven't caught up with the recent lore reveals the Ancients are basically the ones that introduced The Corruption and are the primary antagonists of Ashes of Creation.


Surely there's a rebel, or rebels, among the Ancients that seeks to work against them and thus with you to reclaim the world.

To make a comparison with World of Warcraft, even the 'evil' races had factions among them that would work with the Horde or Alliance. Primary examples being the demons working with Illidan and of course the Forsaken undead that works with the Horde.

Even the Dreadlords that seem to be born evil or something work against each other from time to time. Whereas the Ancients in Ashes of Creation are said to have developed a strong sense of pride and ambition that's not exactly evil and would also cause what I've suggested which is a rogue faction.

I'm not expecting them to become a playable race but a faction you can work with and raise reputation and rewards with. They wouldn't necessarily be on your side per say but you can learn to work together regardless.

Comments

  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited November 2020
    I dont like the "good guy" devils.
    They chip away from the terror, the essence of evil.

    I dont care for personalities when it comes to evil gods and fallen angels.

    I want them to be dead set focused on being the challenge to the heroes. Personality traits break that sense.

    Illidan was cool in the warcraft story. But he wasnt an ancient. He was a night elf from the begining.

    Grom was an orc from the beginning, fighting against his corruption.


    As for w0w lore, meh. Over time, quality declines.
  • I'm merely giving WoW lore as an example. If you really want to go to a more original source they are basically fallen angels and there are plenty of stories where not all fallen angels stay 'evil'.

    I just thought it would be cool to have a faction like that. Then again I love the Death Knights from WoW that Arthus created that turned against him after breaking free of his mind control so I'm definitely biased.
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    edited November 2020
    The ancients are supposed to be those of us that decided to manipulate essence no matter the consequence and for whatever end they felt worth working towards. Will they want to try and get your help? Absolutely. Should you? Never!

    The act of helping any of these creatures should and (in my opinion)would result in being corrupted yourself. So I highly doubt they would be interactable as quest givers or a faction. However, IF they did come in as a faction, they would most likely have quests that actively give you corruption upon completion. This would be a whole new kettle of smelly fish that probably isn't worth the time and effort to implement due to its risks and the vision of corruption as a whole.
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  • Sathrago wrote: »
    The ancients are supposed to be those of us that decided to manipulate essence no matter the consequence and for whatever end they felt worth working towards. Will they want to try and get your help? Absolutely. Should you? Never!

    The act of helping any of these creatures should and (in my opinion)would result in being corrupted yourself. So I highly doubt they would be interactable as quest givers or a faction. However, IF they did come in as a faction, they would most likely have quests that actively give you corruption upon completion. This would be a whole new kettle of smelly fish that probably isn't worth the time and effort to implement due to its risks and the vision of corruption as a whole.

    Oh and I'm sure you've never worked with 'evil' necromancers, warlocks or other nefarious beings. I bet you've never even played as one yourself and did good deeds regardless.
  • Surely there's a rebel, or rebels, among the Ancients that seeks to work against them and thus with you to reclaim the world.

    Like the Faceless Aliens in The X-Files. It'd be interesting, for sure, but I dunno how it'd work with the whole corrupted thing. Would be cool to see if it could be slotted in somewhere.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    why cant evil just be evil I mean we have 6 other gods that are good
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Sathrago wrote: »
    The ancients are supposed to be those of us that decided to manipulate essence no matter the consequence and for whatever end they felt worth working towards. Will they want to try and get your help? Absolutely. Should you? Never!

    The act of helping any of these creatures should and (in my opinion)would result in being corrupted yourself. So I highly doubt they would be interactable as quest givers or a faction. However, IF they did come in as a faction, they would most likely have quests that actively give you corruption upon completion. This would be a whole new kettle of smelly fish that probably isn't worth the time and effort to implement due to its risks and the vision of corruption as a whole.

    Oh and I'm sure you've never worked with 'evil' necromancers, warlocks or other nefarious beings. I bet you've never even played as one yourself and did good deeds regardless.

    Yes but working with necromancers and warlocks don't innately corrupt you like working with an ancient will. This isn't something that is grey in Ashes of Creation, it is very bold and to the point that Ancients are creatures of a pure evil sort and their very presence corrupts. It's on the level that the gods had to separate us.

    it's just that bad.
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    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    edited November 2020
    Just to add on to what I am saying, Here is a quote from the wiki.

    Long ago, the world of Verra was besieged by a great calamity (also called the Fall, the Apocalypse, and the Exodus) brought about by the primary antagonists of the world: The Ancients, and The Others.[11][24]

    The apocalypse began with comet-like celestial bodies called Harbingers arriving in on Verra. The Ancients flowed out of the conduits that opened at the center of the Harbingers and started conquering the planet.[11]
    Their desire was to pervert the creation of the gods (the Seven) as an affront to their endeavors; and in doing so they created monstrosities by manipulating nature with corruption, which is the negative aspect of The Essence.[11][69]

    Harbingers that exist on Verra as dungeons are where the Ancients are capable of pushing into the material plane. They can continue to do so under the guise of the effects of corruption as it spreads.[23]
    There are events that lead to the spreading of corruption that players will have to fight back against. When these events that occur players will need to participate to keep the intrusion on the material plane back.[23]
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  • Nagash wrote: »
    why cant evil just be evil I mean we have 6 other gods that are good

    Actually it's 7 'good' gods and 3 'evil' gods. We've only gotten teasers on what exactly happened. Only that the 7 didn't like their creations becoming just as immortal and nearly as powerful as the gods. If that's their crime that doesn't exactly seem evil so there's probably more to it.

    Otherwise it's akin to Prometheus granting fire to mortals.

    What you're describing is more akin to the Old Gods and the Void Lords if we're still looking at WoW lore where they were always evil in the sense that they sought to destroy the material plane because its existence offends them or something. Or maybe it was desire to possess and control but I can't remember at the moment.

    Whereas with these Other gods and the Ancients it's not that cut and dry.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Nagash wrote: »
    why cant evil just be evil I mean we have 6 other gods that are good

    Actually it's 7 'good' gods and 3 'evil' gods. We've only gotten teasers on what exactly happened. Only that the 7 didn't like their creations becoming just as immortal and nearly as powerful as the gods. If that's their crime that doesn't exactly seem evil so there's probably more to it.

    Otherwise it's akin to Prometheus granting fire to mortals.

    What you're describing is more akin to the Old Gods and the Void Lords if we're still looking at WoW lore where they were always evil in the sense that they sought to destroy the material plane because its existence offends them or something. Or maybe it was desire to possess and control but I can't remember at the moment.

    Whereas with these Other gods and the Ancients it's not that cut and dry.

    9tbkNzz.png
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Nagash wrote: »
    9tbkNzz.png

    Why would they change "evil"?!
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • Sathrago wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    The ancients are supposed to be those of us that decided to manipulate essence no matter the consequence and for whatever end they felt worth working towards. Will they want to try and get your help? Absolutely. Should you? Never!

    The act of helping any of these creatures should and (in my opinion)would result in being corrupted yourself. So I highly doubt they would be interactable as quest givers or a faction. However, IF they did come in as a faction, they would most likely have quests that actively give you corruption upon completion. This would be a whole new kettle of smelly fish that probably isn't worth the time and effort to implement due to its risks and the vision of corruption as a whole.

    Oh and I'm sure you've never worked with 'evil' necromancers, warlocks or other nefarious beings. I bet you've never even played as one yourself and did good deeds regardless.

    Yes but working with necromancers and warlocks don't innately corrupt you like working with an ancient will. This isn't something that is grey in Ashes of Creation, it is very bold and to the point that Ancients are creatures of a pure evil sort and their very presence corrupts. It's on the level that the gods had to separate us.

    it's just that bad.

    I can't find anything released in the lore that says they radiate Corruption unconsciously. It's clearly a conscious act so simply working with some of them wouldn't make you Corrupted.

    Now there is something to be said about working with any of them, even a rogue faction, since King Atrax certainly got screwed over by being tricked into becoming a lich and whatnot. You certainly couldn't fully trust them. But it's the same with any rogue faction in any setting.
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    edited November 2020
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    The ancients are supposed to be those of us that decided to manipulate essence no matter the consequence and for whatever end they felt worth working towards. Will they want to try and get your help? Absolutely. Should you? Never!

    The act of helping any of these creatures should and (in my opinion)would result in being corrupted yourself. So I highly doubt they would be interactable as quest givers or a faction. However, IF they did come in as a faction, they would most likely have quests that actively give you corruption upon completion. This would be a whole new kettle of smelly fish that probably isn't worth the time and effort to implement due to its risks and the vision of corruption as a whole.

    Oh and I'm sure you've never worked with 'evil' necromancers, warlocks or other nefarious beings. I bet you've never even played as one yourself and did good deeds regardless.

    Yes but working with necromancers and warlocks don't innately corrupt you like working with an ancient will. This isn't something that is grey in Ashes of Creation, it is very bold and to the point that Ancients are creatures of a pure evil sort and their very presence corrupts. It's on the level that the gods had to separate us.

    it's just that bad.

    I can't find anything released in the lore that says they radiate Corruption unconsciously. It's clearly a conscious act so simply working with some of them wouldn't make you Corrupted.

    Now there is something to be said about working with any of them, even a rogue faction, since King Atrax certainly got screwed over by being tricked into becoming a lich and whatnot. You certainly couldn't fully trust them. But it's the same with any rogue faction in any setting.

    I mean I gave you their clear goals and tactics. This is just you wanting to force the idea at this point.
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  • Oh and I'm sure you've never worked with 'evil' necromancers, warlocks or other nefarious beings. I bet you've never even played as one yourself and did good deeds regardless.
    Wait did you just accuse me of being a goodie two shoes?

    I gotta show this to my dnd buddies.
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    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • I mean, my problem personally is that we simply don't know enough about The Ancients, The Others, and what got them exiled.

    For example, it's stated that "the Essence has a profound effect biologically, physically, and visually on the appearance of the creatures that are manipulating it and are corrupted by it", implying that at least part of The Ancients' actions are due to their corruption.

    Now, let's consider how they became corrupted. According to the wiki, "The Ancients learned from The Others how to use The Essence to achieve immortality". I'm just saying, if your gods walked up to you and said, "Hey, try out this cool new technique that will make you immortal!" would you refuse? Because I wouldn't. I'd assume, y'know, that they were my god, and I could trust them.

    I'll be honest, with the information we have, the vibe that I'm getting here is "The Seven didn't like The Ancients having quasi-godhood". However, that also depends on if The Ancients' corruption is a result of their exile or a result of using Essence for immortality in the first place.

    Either way, though, I don't think the fault lies with The Ancients. If it's the exile, that's on The Seven, not The Ancients. If it's the Essence, that's on The Others.

    I do get the feeling that the corruption is part of what makes The Ancients act the way they do.
  • Evil is just a matter of perspective.

    I'm sure that those whom are considered "evil" by some group of people, aren't by another. And especially from the point of view of the individual being called "evil." Perhaps from their perspective, they are doing the right and good thing. The things that make the most sense to them, to accomplish the greater goal.

    Consider Thanos.
    Sure, from the majority of the galaxy's point of view, he was evil. Trying to kill a vast number of the populous with the Infinity Gauntlet. But there was those that still followed him and believed in his cause. And he himself (from his point of view) wasn't trying to do something 'evil' ..he believed, at his very core, that he was Saving the universe/galaxy/future by using the gauntlet.

    Good & Evil are just a matter of perspective.
    Neither actually exist.


    Steven Sharif is my James Halliday (Anorak)

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  • SathragoSathrago Member
    edited November 2020
    Evil is just a matter of perspective.

    I'm sure that those whom are considered "evil" by some group of people, aren't by another. And especially from the point of view of the individual being called "evil." Perhaps from their perspective, they are doing the right and good thing. The things that make the most sense to them, to accomplish the greater goal.

    Consider Thanos.
    Sure, from the majority of the galaxy's point of view, he was evil. Trying to kill a vast number of the populous with the Infinity Gauntlet. But there was those that still followed him and believed in his cause. And he himself (from his point of view) wasn't trying to do something 'evil' ..he believed, at his very core, that he was Saving the universe/galaxy/future by using the gauntlet.

    Good & Evil are just a matter of perspective.
    Neither actually exist.

    Except this is a fantasy world where there is this magical negative essence that makes you literally evil. I don't think there's much more to read into than that. The whole premise is that they nearly destroyed the world once and are now coming back to try and finish the job.

    Thing's can actually be black and white in a fantasy world and I am fine with that.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    Seems to me that an Ancient who works against the Ancients would no longer be Corrupt - and therefore would not be an Ancient anymore.

    The magical negative essence makes you Corrupt. I'm pretty sure that is different than evil.
    As in, people can be evil without being Corrupt.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    Shenan wrote: »
    According to the wiki, "The Ancients learned from The Others how to use The Essence to achieve immortality". I'm just saying, if your gods walked up to you and said, "Hey, try out this cool new technique that will make you immortal!" would you refuse? Because I wouldn't. I'd assume, y'know, that they were my god, and I could trust them.

    I'll be honest, with the information we have, the vibe that I'm getting here is "The Seven didn't like The Ancients having quasi-godhood". However, that also depends on if The Ancients' corruption is a result of their exile or a result of using Essence for immortality in the first place.
    Right.
    What does immortality mean and why would it be problematic for the Gods?
    A soul in heaven or hell is "immortal". Why would they care if there are people who want to remain corporeal forever? Do non-corporeal souls lose the ability to manipulate the Essence and that some how benefits the Gods?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    Evil is just a matter of perspective.

    I'm sure that those whom are considered "evil" by some group of people, aren't by another. And especially from the point of view of the individual being called "evil." Perhaps from their perspective, they are doing the right and good thing. The things that make the most sense to them, to accomplish the greater goal.

    Consider Thanos.
    Sure, from the majority of the galaxy's point of view, he was evil. Trying to kill a vast number of the populous with the Infinity Gauntlet. But there was those that still followed him and believed in his cause. And he himself (from his point of view) wasn't trying to do something 'evil' ..he believed, at his very core, that he was Saving the universe/galaxy/future by using the gauntlet.

    Good & Evil are just a matter of perspective.
    Neither actually exist.
    So...good and evil are matters of (mortal) perspective. True.
    But... Good and Evil are objectively defined...in fantasy RPG settings. Especially where there are active Gods.
    In D&D, Good characters and creatures protect innocent life while Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

    In MMORPGs, these definitions are mostly meaningless because all players wantonly kill innocent life for xp.
    Killing stuff is the primary method of gaining xp.
    Ashes appears to focus on Non-Corrupt v Corrupt rather than Good v Evil.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Seems to me that an Ancient who works against the Ancients would no longer be Corrupt - and therefore would not be an Ancient anymore.

    They were The Ancients before The Others taught them about the Essence. They just became the "evil corrupted" Ancients after that. So, surely one who rejects/beats the corruption would still be an Ancient, they just wouldn't be an "evil corrupt" one.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • daveywavey wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Seems to me that an Ancient who works against the Ancients would no longer be Corrupt - and therefore would not be an Ancient anymore.

    They were The Ancients before The Others taught them about the Essence. They just became the "evil corrupted" Ancients after that. So, surely one who rejects/beats the corruption would still be an Ancient, they just wouldn't be an "evil corrupt" one.

    This is quite literally a case of spoiled children going through a divorce and mommy says they can have whatever they want while dad tries to keep them in check causing the kids to like mommy more than dad. Then separation happens and they go with mommy because they tried to light dad's hair on fire for not giving them an allowance.
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  • I think a pretty good example where evil forces may not always mean the person is evil is star wars and darth vader. Anakin used the dark side of the force, and became "corrupt". But he never did it because he was a evil person, and in the end he saved the galaxy because of the good in his heart.

    I don't think all the Ancient are inherently bad, they were created from ALL the different gods, both the "good" and the "bad". Yes they may have become corrupt but that doesn't mean they are "pure evil" entities.

    I think @Shenan made a great comment and I totally agree with it.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    daveywavey wrote: »
    They were The Ancients before The Others taught them about the Essence. They just became the "evil corrupted" Ancients after that. So, surely one who rejects/beats the corruption would still be an Ancient, they just wouldn't be an "evil corrupt" one.
    If that's the case, it sounds like they need to remain Corrupt in order to stay "alive".
    So...there would not be an Ancient whom Non-Corrupt people would support.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • edited November 2020
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Evil is just a matter of perspective.

    I'm sure that those whom are considered "evil" by some group of people, aren't by another. And especially from the point of view of the individual being called "evil." Perhaps from their perspective, they are doing the right and good thing. The things that make the most sense to them, to accomplish the greater goal.

    Consider Thanos.
    Sure, from the majority of the galaxy's point of view, he was evil. Trying to kill a vast number of the populous with the Infinity Gauntlet. But there was those that still followed him and believed in his cause. And he himself (from his point of view) wasn't trying to do something 'evil' ..he believed, at his very core, that he was Saving the universe/galaxy/future by using the gauntlet.

    Good & Evil are just a matter of perspective.
    Neither actually exist.

    Except this is a fantasy world where there is this magical negative essence that makes you literally evil. I don't think there's much more to read into than that. The whole premise is that they nearly destroyed the world once and are now coming back to try and finish the job.

    Thing's can actually be black and white in a fantasy world and I am fine with that.

    We don't know enough about essence to understand what's going on. Remember the gods themselves used essence to create the races and the world(s). It doesn't seem to be a case of arcane vs. fel magic, at least not yet.

    So far it just seems like a tool which can be used for good or ill. It would be like saying their's an evil electricity that if you use you become evil. Again, at least according to current revealed lore.

    Nuclear power can be used for good or you can create a bomb. Chemistry can be used to save lives and it can create mustard gas. It's all about how you use it.

    Yes it's a fantasy setting but from what's revealed so far the Corruption is a magical dirty bomb. Simply using essence CANNOT make you corrupt or evil otherwise the seven 'good' gods would be corrupt and 'evil' according to the setting's current lore. And that fact cannot change without overhauling the entire setting.

    If Steve reveals differently it's poor writing by not staying internally consistent. Even a fantasy setting has to follow it's own revealed rules or it's just BAD writing.
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