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Combat, Raid/Boss Mechanics and Keybinds

So I'm new around here, and I've come do to my genuine curiosity and interest in AoC. This project is by far the most ambitious and promising looking game I have seen in a while. The philosophy and rpg elements that have been spoken about are exciting, the graphics are clean, and the community is massive even before open beta testing...

That being said I have watched a lot of the footage and watched about every video I can find about AoC and it's Pre Alpha stage. And I KNOW it's in Pre Alpha currently, and that's why I'd like to talk about some questions and concerns I have.

So in the Hybrid Combat and other Group Combat footage I've seen from AoC's official channel, I've noticed that we have "action bars" like other MMO's, and Steven said that the Z key will switch between Tab Targeting mode, and the Action mode. I was wondering if this key and all other keys will be bindable and changeable fully.

The next concern I have is my biggest concern, and that's the speed and fluidity of combat, and the enemies, (bosses, mini bosses, and other mobs in general) mechanics.
Watching the fight against that dragon and the other world boss was honestly a little disappointing on the combat side. It seemed like they had no mechanics, they didn't move around, they had no separate phases and just seemed like immobile tank and spank blah fights. Coming from games with great boss mechanics and fluid combat like WoW, Dark Souls/Bloodborne, and Monster Hunter, this sort of combat being shown is extremely outdated, and something I hope will be completely changed and made more dynamic.

The last concern sort of ties in with the last, and that is combat speed and fluidity.
One thing you cannot deny is that Retail WoW, as flawed as it is now a days... it has some of the most fluid and responsive combat in MMOs, and if AoC wants to be competitive against Blizzard, they will have to have a solid and dynamic combat system, and movement. Watching the combat that I've seen, some abilities look very slow and clunky, specifically the mages staff fireball thing.

So in conclusion I'm very excited for this game and I can't wait to try it out whenever open beta happens, but I had some thoughts I hope will reach the creators as constructive feedback.

Comments

  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Welcome to the community.
    As you said still being pre alpha there is a lot of work to go. Most of what we have seen is place holder stuff.
    Like you I hope there are massive and dynamic fights. A lot of the Devs are veterans of the genre having worked on many great projects. I think they will surprise us with some good stuff.

    Not sure if you have found the wiki yet.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • Thanks! And yeah I've found the wiki, looking at the class chart is astounding, I just hope the secondary augments are more impactful than they're making it out to be.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Agreed.
    With alpha one coming in a couple weeks hopefully we see some good stuff for mechanics and skills.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • DreohDreoh Member
    edited December 2020
    Well first it's a bit disingenuous to compare an MMO like AoC with Soulsborne and Monster Hunter, it's far better to keep it to it's genre.

    With that said, I agree with you, a more interactive combat is only a boon. However I believe WoW is only slightly above the curve, whereas games like GW2 TERA or ESO and other hybrid/action MMO's are far ahead of the curve and are the ones we should be trying to improve upon.

    My biggest gripe so far is we have yet to see any actual fluid combat, and for the past 3 months I've tried to ask about these things in the Q/A submissions but I unfortunately haven't been chosen. All of the combat footage we've seen so far has people standing still to attack, and only moving to move out of fire or to get to their target. Combat looks very stale and number-based atm instead of fluid and skill-based. Though I am keenly aware this is alpha and am not judging it too harshly as such.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Hilvar Welcome.

    Here is some of my thoughts and speculations.

    I share your concerns about keybind's and configurable action bars myself. Especially in a game that will not allow addons. I have stated on the forums before that the UI needs to allow for highly configurable action bars and keybinds. At least on the level of FFXIV. I use FFXIV as an example here because addons are not allowed in FFXIV, but it has enough customization to be acceptable. Not having full control over your keybinds and action bars makes a game unplayable to me. Right now everything is place holder so I give them a pass.

    As for the fluidity of combat. The best we can hope for is WOWs smoothness. I would not expect anything like Monster Hunter or Dark Souls. It is more likely that we get Normal tab target combat with some aimed action combat moves to use if you choose. Two great MMOs came out and actually had good action combat. TERA and Wildstar. One is dead and the other is on life support. I hate that good combat systems don't last. I would not have tremendous expectations in this area. I would expect middle of the road MMO controls that allow you to lean more action or tabbed combat.

    When it comes to boss fight complexity you are absolutely right. That dragon looks like a by the books tank and spank. Due to 80% of the fights being in the open world. These bosses are going to be zerg fests. The Devs addressed this a little in the recent live stream, and they at least shown that they are open to putting some hard fights in instances. Maybe they will even have good mechanics? I know a lot of the EQ2 dev team is involved in AOC. The only thing I have heard about EQ2s raid bosses is that they are close to classic wow in mechanical complexity. I am not saying that an insult to EQ2, or its raiding. I am just saying that in the last decade raid bosses have come a long way in both WOW and FFXIV. If you think AOC is going to be a source of intense boss fights. I would temper expectations.

    I don't know what kind of combat speed they are aiming for. As someone who has raided in both WOW and FFXIV. I can say that the difference between a 1.5 sec GCD and a 2.5 sec GCD is big. Personally I don't want any game to have a slower than 1.5 sec GCD. Some classes and ability's might just be very slow. Even in FFXIV the difference how many actions per minute between jobs is high. Machinist might press 2x as many skills in a minute than a Black Mage, due to half of the jobs rotation being OGCD skills. AOC may be more like that?

    TLDR: It's too soon to tell, but I would not expect the game to be as revolutionary with its combat system as it is going to be with its other systems. I would love to be wrong about some of these things.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    @Hilvar
    Everything you listed has not been reached in development yet. On the most recent stream, IS announced that they had put together a team to focus on combat and if I remember right, we should see some results from them around the March testing phase.

    We just have to wait to find out how good the combat and enemies will be as the current state of development is nowhere near complete.
  • Dreoh wrote: »
    Well first it's a bit disingenuous to compare an MMO like AoC with Soulsborne and Monster Hunter, it's far better to keep it to it's genre.

    With that said, I agree with you, a more interactive combat is only a boon. However I believe WoW is only slightly above the curve, whereas games like GW2 TERA or ESO and other hybrid/action MMO's are far ahead of the curve and are the ones we should be trying to improve upon.

    My biggest gripe so far is we have yet to see any actual fluid combat, and for the past 3 months I've tried to ask about these things in the Q/A submissions but I unfortunately haven't been chosen. All of the combat footage we've seen so far has people standing still to attack, and only moving to move out of fire or to get to their target. Combat looks very stale and number-based atm instead of fluid and skill-based. Though I am keenly aware this is alpha and am not judging it too harshly as such.

    When I mentioned Soulsborne and Monster Hunter I was only talking specifically about the enemy mechanics and such, not other things about the game because yeah it is a different genre and not MMOs. I was just trying to explain the types of fluidity and whatnot I'd like to see Ashes create.

    Also sorry for the big quote I don't mean to quote this much I'm just new to the quoting thing and don't quite know how to do it hehe
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member
    edited December 2020
    Hilvar wrote: »
    Also sorry for the big quote I don't mean to quote this much I'm just new to the quoting thing and don't quite know how to do it hehe

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    Also, welcome! :)


    FYI: To Edit a post you've made, click the little sprocket cogwheel in the top-right of your post, and it will give you the "Edit" option.
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  • Why would you not have full control over your keybinds? That seems like a strange concern. I have never heard of an MMO that didn't let you fully customize all of your keybinds.
  • Willkommen! And bienvenue! Welcome!

    All your concerns are justified but I assure you - they are aware of them most. Don't worry about key bind etc
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  • DreohDreoh Member
    edited December 2020
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Two great MMOs came out and actually had good action combat. TERA and Wildstar. One is dead and the other is on life support.

    They aren't dead because of their combat, it's very unfair and wrong to just state that. Wildstar had issues with trying to only appeal to the competitive and not the casual, while TERA is just dying from age and some other things. Both are renowned for their actually fun combat.

    If AoC's combat was at their level it'd definitely be up there for best MMO of the decade
    - Edit: I misread what he said
    Hilvar wrote: »
    When I mentioned Soulsborne and Monster Hunter I was only talking specifically about the enemy mechanics and such, not other things about the game because yeah it is a different genre and not MMOs. I was just trying to explain the types of fluidity and whatnot I'd like to see Ashes create.

    Also sorry for the big quote I don't mean to quote this much I'm just new to the quoting thing and don't quite know how to do it hehe

    Oh ok that's fair, yea enemies should have variety I definitely agree

    You can legit just edit quotes, when you click "quote" it just copy-pastes their message with the formatting required to create a quote, but you can erase sections of it as you need.
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member
    edited December 2020
    Dreoh wrote: »


    They aren't dead because of their combat, it's very unfair and wrong to just state that. Wildstar had issues with trying to only appeal to the competitive and not the casual, while TERA is just dying from age and some other things. Both are renowned for their actually fun combat.

    If AoC's combat was at their level it'd definitely be up there for best MMO of the decade

    TERA started dying in 2014 when they began to mak a few fatal mistakes that they have since repeated over and over to slowly dig themselves their current grave:

    1. Went P2W
    2. Introduced new class that was OP, designed too differently from the originals, and gender locked
    3. Tons of removed content

    TERA didn't die of old age, it started dying very early on due to poor design and management decisions that any gamer could figure out would be terrible.
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