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Monster Logic. Next gen MMO?

This would be linked to this system that should be read first:
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/47517/how-the-game-handles-loot-a-suggestion-and-personal-thoughts#latest

PvE should include risk and not reward, but the bigger the risk the higher the reward. My previous thread would give this, but this thread is about something else that would be linked to mobs being able to build a loot-table based on player interaction with it.

Big data often follows MMO's, and developers often look at it to balance things out, but what about adding procedural systems that does this on its own? AI systems that analyze big data from the entire game to evolve mobs and monsters.

Crafting is a big part of this game, and that means that players will run around gathering, harvesting, picking and chopping stuff down all over the place. What if the devs involve creatures that needs the same resources to survive them selves? Think of it as a mini node system, linked between resources and mobs.

Example:

Some creatures eats a specific type of flower or a bush to survive, and if players run around in his spawning area picking up and despawning all of that resource, then the creature needs to react, as they can't survive in the same area as the players if they pick his food all day long. They are removing his way of life, and after a while the AI system adjusts its aggro from "Neutral" to "Aggressive", attacking players on sight for that area only, on a specific server only.

1: A resource is farmed to a point it is despawned as fast as it is spawned in an area.
2. The mob that is linked to this resource gets adjusted by the AI "Big data" analyzer on the server to adjust its aggro range.
3. The resource is still being farmed, thus the mob gets adjusted to evolve another skill (call it area specific evolution).
4. The resource is still being farmed, meaning players have no problem dealing with them yet. This adjustment can trigger them to work better together. They attack in packs.
5. Still the same thing, and now a boss is spawned.


This type of evolution should not happen over a period of a day, so farming should still be possible for players, but the evolution could happen over a couple of days or a week, resulting in players having to move if they don't bring more and more players towards the same favorite spot. At the end, you need a small raid to deal with the problem before you have to leave it alone, and let the system "de-evolve" back again to its normal state.

Often in MMO's we find such spots that is easy to farm. Easy money grabs and exploits. Having a system to add risk where mobs gets bigger and bigger search radios for their Aggro, and bigger and bigger "leash" areas could make the world even more immersive and evolving. Players would be forced to travel and explore more for X resource, and with the PvE Loot table discussed in previous thread, the world would be even more dangerous and exciting.

Ideas on how Big Data can be analyzed and utilized is endless, and they've already implemented systems for this in other areas of the game. Tweaking aggro states, and "leash" stats plus spawn ratio and single/group spawns etc should not be that hard to implement imo. And this means that creature X in Y location may behave and act completely differently than in Z location. It may even have a charge skill to use, or something else - thus we the players would never be sure on creatures and how big of a threat they are, if they have been farmed for a while by another group a few days before etc.

If this is added to a dungeon, a farmed dungeon could evolve from day to day making it harder and harder for it to be farmed, stopping the benefits of guilds who have found exploits for it etc. as this is often a big problem in open world MMO's with free PvP. People will try to find the best way of farming, and advantages will come out of it. A counter argument is that mercenary guilds also often knows of the exploitable farm areas, or dungeons etc. But this could also be used to ruin a guilds day if you are at war against them. If you know they farm X location, then utilize the system and make mobs harder and bigger threats there, and return to your own farm-land to try and get an advantage. It would be a way of starving a guild, just like good old times where this was a medieval tactic.

Comments

  • Silent community. Bumps.
  • There were other games that tried to emulate in part what you propose.

    Although I never played it, I saw a video about Ultima Online in which a dev talks about how creatures would eat the plants and respawned at a rate depending on the availability (or something of that effect) but, as it turned out, it was not working: players were simply killing everything in an area, to the point that this dynamic spawning rate was to slow to be meaningful.

    In Dark Age of Camelot, when a mob had not been killed for a while it began to give bonus xp. That's what made certain dangerous spots (in the frontier zones) worthwhile since not many people would camp them. It's a much simpler mechanic, but it had the spirit of dynamic risk vs reward.

    Now, what you propose looks a lot like what the progression system for a node and its zone of influence will be. From the wiki...
    Zones and progression

    Dungeons, Raids, World bosses, Mobs, Quests, Events, Resources, Narratives and other content within a node's ZOI will have a diverse level range; but will scale with the advancement of that node and its racial influence.[35][36][8]

    We don’t have a strictly level 25 zone. Instead, that zone might have some level 10 creatures near the road, some level 20 creatures deep in the forest, and some level 30 creatures up the mountain. These ratios will change based on the Nodes that inform them, becoming generally more dangerous as the Node grows. All this civilization attracts the attention of Things-That-Should-Not-Be. This does not mean that wilderness areas are safe, by any means. Some may be safe-er, but all will have dangers that even the most experienced traveler needs to watch out for.[37] – Steven Sharif
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • Now, what you propose looks a lot like what the progression system for a node and its zone of influence will be. From the wiki...

    Exactly. The logic should be more or less the same, but in combination with the other idea linked in OP, this would give even more life with shifting risk for PvE.

    When you die, the mob increases its loot table based on the player that died for it. That means every mod is potentially more exciting. And PvE comes with more risk with inventory loss at death.
  • i like the idea of an evolving Monster AI based on the players actions.
    we already have a similar system to this one through the node development. here mob levels, dungeons, etc. are changed based on the node level.
    I think it's an interesting idea to change the behavior of the mobs based on player actions in the ZOI.
    so that mobs, for example, become more aggressive or learn other / better combat skills when players cut down too much forest or collect all the herbs. you can see it like between stages of the node development, only that the node is not decisive here, but the actions of the players in individual areas of the map.
    I would also find it kind of awesome if mobs would develop so far that they build their own little mini villages, from where the mobs attack players or monopolize resources for this area. so that first a group of players has to destroy this village again.
    I find it very interesting, but I don't know exactly how that would have to be implemented to avoid difficulties like in the post above (percimes post).
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  • If they don't have it, they shouldn't make it. I think they should focus on the core experience first and the consider other innovative things.
    Nodes are already complicated. They want different nodes structures every time, different layout. The raids/quests already depend on the node, zone and player interaction.
    I'd rather they focus on that and make sure it's as bulletproof as it can.

    If by launch we have two nodes that look equal/similar people will start saying they are not really dinamyc and just templates.
  • Asgermon wrote: »
    I would also find it kind of awesome if mobs would develop so far that they build their own little mini villages, from where the mobs attack players or monopolize resources for this area. so that first a group of players has to destroy this village again.
    I like that addition. Like a new server have nodes in the opposite direction when we arrive to it. Mobs have their own nodes which we have to beat down to get our own to grow and take over their nodes. The PvE siege would make sense then, as mobs actually have their reason to fight back.

    If a PvE node is left alone (something of interest also) they evolve to give us end-game content alongside the node system close to us. This would make sure that grinding spots are dynamic. A problem I often see in open world game with high focus on crafting. Its way easy to find exploits to grind easy spots, so making a system that could somewhat combat this to make the world a even more "living" one is something to strive for imo.

    I may make a new thread, to combine all of this into one idea, as its a bit all over the place atm.
  • BlackBrony wrote: »
    If they don't have it, they shouldn't make it. I think they should focus on the core experience first and the consider other innovative things.
    Nodes are already complicated. They want different nodes structures every time, different layout. The raids/quests already depend on the node, zone and player interaction.
    I'd rather they focus on that and make sure it's as bulletproof as it can.

    If by launch we have two nodes that look equal/similar people will start saying they are not really dinamyc and just templates.

    This would not change how the nodes function for us and PvP. Its an addition on top of it, and I'm not asking for it to be included at launch necessarily.
  • oophus wrote: »
    I may make a new thread, to combine all of this into one idea, as its a bit all over the place atm.

    It's probably best to just summarise everything in a post in this thread. Otherwise it will be all over different threads, not just all over a single one.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @oophus I think your idea is just a step beyond the scope of the game. I like it, but their are too many untested moving wheels in ashes as is. Who knows that issues they are going to run into once they start getting a massive amount of people running around in the node system. Further complicating mobs seems a bit reckless, when they are already looking pretty dynamic from the node system. In comparison to other MMOs at least.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • daveywavey wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    I may make a new thread, to combine all of this into one idea, as its a bit all over the place atm.

    It's probably best to just summarise everything in a post in this thread. Otherwise it will be all over different threads, not just all over a single one.

    I already have two threads that should be combined, and I feel its better to have a better structured OP to deliver the premise properly.
  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    @oophus I think your idea is just a step beyond the scope of the game. I like it, but their are too many untested moving wheels in ashes as is. Who knows that issues they are going to run into once they start getting a massive amount of people running around in the node system. Further complicating mobs seems a bit reckless, when they are already looking pretty dynamic from the node system. In comparison to other MMOs at least.

    I disagree, as all of the systems is already implemented at different areas of the game. But I agree that its increasing its scope, but ideas in this forum can also be a basis for an DLC or expansion later. So I don't mind discussing the possibilities.
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