Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!

Combat is so important for this game - Combat progression Test environment.

oophusoophus Member
edited December 2020 in General Discussion
The biggest sceptical point I have of this game is combat, and how it should feel, flow and play, and while looking at videos I think there is a lot to be desired yet. This point is so important to get right, that I think the devs should focus even more on it.

What I suggest from the devs, is to release an really basic test environment with a Test-Dummy.
A room with no textures and a Test-Dummy, thats it, that is being updated almost daily outside of the Alpha and Beta testing, where the entire game is more looked at as a whole. This test-environment is a precursor for what will end up in the Alpha and Beta builds as time goes by.

Any new animation, skill, ability etc gets tested through this, and the whole purpose of it is solely to test animations, flow, fluid, feel, movement and not anything related to damage as damage should be easier to adjust once the combat actually feel on point. Cooldowns etc have to stay of course to test how rotations etc feel. The Test dummy would have a few features to toggle when pressed, to simulate incoming damage to test out stagger, animation cancels etc.

Pick a few members from the community and pick a good group that consists of PvE players, PvP players, Tab-favorites, Action-Combat favorites etc.

Test the environment for a level 1 player, and progress upwards. Only when low-level combat feels on point then go forwards. Combat should feel good right off the gate. Next level 5, then level 10 etc.

This would be a perfect environment to test different technologies as well. Animation with movement-lock? Animation with separate lower and upper body giving some ability to move while channeling a skill? How much movement? How long should a skill last before its sent?

For abilities that does max damage between 1-2 seconds, where <1 seconds does less damage, and >2 damage does less damage, does it fit the pace of the class and the rest of the abilities? Should those features be included? Etc.

Rapid fast paced test environment that can be updated at will from the devs, and make a forum-section for this test to discuss ideas and feedback for it.

PS: This is something they already probably have inhouse, and should be something that can be duplicated. But the main purpose here is to test combat from different parts of the world. Ping and latency affects things, and what seems fine in the office, may not seem fine for players playing further away from the server.

«1

Comments

  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    They are its call alpha 1 alpha 2 beta 1 and beta 2
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Nagash wrote: »
    They are its call alpha 1 alpha 2 beta 1 and beta 2
    Don't type in threads after reading the headings only. Read the entire post first - please.


  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Nagash wrote: »
    They are its call alpha 1 alpha 2 beta 1 and beta 2

    Indeed.

    I'm personally fairly confident the 10,000 of us alpha testers, plus the untold number of beta testers, should have plenty of opportunity to test out the combat system.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited December 2020
    oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    They are its call alpha 1 alpha 2 beta 1 and beta 2
    Don't type in threads after reading the headings only. Read the entire post first - please.


    I did read the thread. you said you want a testing ground to test combat and we have that in testing
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Nagash wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    They are its call alpha 1 alpha 2 beta 1 and beta 2
    Don't type in threads after reading the headings only. Read the entire post first - please.


    I did read the thread. you said you want a testing ground to test combat and we have that in testing

    I'm talking about a more focused test only for the combat feel alone. The alpha and beta are a more complete test, where most of the systems are in place. The company probably already have this type of test-environment locally like most developers do. What I'm asking for them to consider, is utilizing this test-environment more in the open for more feedback - especially over longer distances towards the servers than what they do locally. This should be a test that goes on outside of Alpha and Beta, and something that would be updated daily.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    again we had that it was called apoc
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Nagash wrote: »
    again we had that it was called apoc
    That's a complete game. I'm talking about something way smaller, that would be way faster to update and test quick suggestions for how stuff works in the game.

    I've already told you two times now. This is something they would have had locally. All I'm asking for them to consider is to utilize this test-environment further.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    again we had that it was called apoc
    That's a complete game.
    You obviously didn't play it.

    Apoc was an obvious testbed.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    again we had that it was called apoc
    That's a complete game.
    You obviously didn't play it.

    Apoc was an obvious testbed.
    No, I didn't. But I watched shroud etc test it. And yes, it was released as a testbed for the action combat, but it was a "complete game". What I'm talking about is not. Its an empty room, just like what they utilize to test out animations once they are implemented in Unreal Engine before its ported over to the actual game.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    oophus wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    again we had that it was called apoc
    That's a complete game.
    You obviously didn't play it.

    Apoc was an obvious testbed.
    No, I didn't. But I watched shroud etc test it. And yes, it was released as a testbed for the action combat, but it was a "complete game". What I'm talking about is not. Its an empty room, just like what they utilize to test out animations once they are implemented in Unreal Engine before its ported over to the actual game.

    then don't talk about things if you have never tested them yourself
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Nagash wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    again we had that it was called apoc
    That's a complete game.
    You obviously didn't play it.

    Apoc was an obvious testbed.
    No, I didn't. But I watched shroud etc test it. And yes, it was released as a testbed for the action combat, but it was a "complete game". What I'm talking about is not. Its an empty room, just like what they utilize to test out animations once they are implemented in Unreal Engine before its ported over to the actual game.

    then don't talk about things if you have never tested them yourself

    Valuable feedback for the devs this. Jesus.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    oophus wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    again we had that it was called apoc
    That's a complete game.
    You obviously didn't play it.

    Apoc was an obvious testbed.
    No, I didn't. But I watched shroud etc test it.
    Oh, my mistake, you're obviously well versed in the subject matter, and watching others play games absolutely isn't a waste of time.

  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    again we had that it was called apoc
    That's a complete game.
    You obviously didn't play it.

    Apoc was an obvious testbed.
    No, I didn't. But I watched shroud etc test it. And yes, it was released as a testbed for the action combat, but it was a "complete game". What I'm talking about is not. Its an empty room, just like what they utilize to test out animations once they are implemented in Unreal Engine before its ported over to the actual game.

    then don't talk about things if you have never tested them yourself

    Valuable feedback for the devs this. Jesus.

    how is it feedback if you have nothing to go on?
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    then don't talk about things if you have never tested them yourself

    Valuable feedback for the devs this. Jesus.

    So, you're allowed to tell him not to post, but he's not allowed to do the same to you?
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • daveywavey wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    then don't talk about things if you have never tested them yourself

    Valuable feedback for the devs this. Jesus.

    So, you're allowed to tell him not to post, but he's not allowed to do the same to you?
    If he don't adreess the topic and are only focused on personalized attacks then what do you get from reading that? What does the devs get from reading that?

    My agenda is to try and help the game be as good as it can be. My suggestions may not be utilized, but the idea behind them is to help.

    What is his agenda by behaving like this? Lick the devs asses in hopes to get a Beta key? The devs have said several times that they appreciate discussions on different aspects of the game, especially if its constructive.
  • oophus wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    then don't talk about things if you have never tested them yourself

    Valuable feedback for the devs this. Jesus.

    So, you're allowed to tell him not to post, but he's not allowed to do the same to you?
    If he don't adreess the topic and are only focused on personalized attacks then what do you get from reading that? What does the devs get from reading that?

    My agenda is to try and help the game be as good as it can be. My suggestions may not be utilized, but the idea behind them is to help.

    What is his agenda by behaving like this? Lick the devs asses in hopes to get a Beta key? The devs have said several times that they appreciate discussions on different aspects of the game, especially if its constructive.

    Maybe the devs need to see the full communities opinion before wasting time because of one person who belives that since the devs want feedback, they want one person's opinion about everything without actually playing the game.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    oophus wrote: »
    If he don't adreess the topic and are only focused on personalized attacks then what do you get from reading that? What does the devs get from reading that?

    My agenda is to try and help the game be as good as it can be. My suggestions may not be utilized, but the idea behind them is to help.

    What is his agenda by behaving like this? Lick the devs asses in hopes to get a Beta key? The devs have said several times that they appreciate discussions on different aspects of the game, especially if its constructive.


    Ok lets break this down
    1. I have addressed your topics but you keep changing the goal posts every time I provide proof
    2. I have never attacked you
    3. I have no problem with new ideas along as you don't change the core
    4. Im a long-timer here and already have an alpha 1 key so that's mute
    5. you are right the devs want us to talk not make demands
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Nagash wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    If he don't adreess the topic and are only focused on personalized attacks then what do you get from reading that? What does the devs get from reading that?

    My agenda is to try and help the game be as good as it can be. My suggestions may not be utilized, but the idea behind them is to help.

    What is his agenda by behaving like this? Lick the devs asses in hopes to get a Beta key? The devs have said several times that they appreciate discussions on different aspects of the game, especially if its constructive.


    Ok lets break this down
    1. I have addressed your topics but you keep changing the goal posts every time I provide proof
    2. I have never attacked you
    3. I have no problem with new ideas along as you don't change the core
    4. Im a long-timer here and already have an alpha 1 key so that's mute
    5. you are right the devs want us to talk not make demands

    1. No you have not. You have just said that Alpha and Beta exists, which I bring up in the OP.
    2. You don't focus on the topic at hand, you're simply here to argue. If you don't like something, explain why. Just saying "this sucks" is not constructive.
    3. The game will be changed and altered, thats why they test the game, and are open to suggestions and discussions on the game. Their end goal is to make money. They don't make a game to be nice to you. They have families to feed, with salaries that have to be payed.
    4. What value do you give the devs by spamming down the forums while not touching the topic in the threads?
    You are still not discussing the topic.
    5. I don't make demands. You do. You jump in saying things sucks without being constructive about it. Why does it suck? Can you explain to me what I'm talking about, so I'm sure you've undestood it?
  • oophus wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    then don't talk about things if you have never tested them yourself

    Valuable feedback for the devs this. Jesus.

    So, you're allowed to tell him not to post, but he's not allowed to do the same to you?
    If he don't adreess the topic and are only focused on personalized attacks then what do you get from reading that? What does the devs get from reading that?

    My agenda is to try and help the game be as good as it can be. My suggestions may not be utilized, but the idea behind them is to help.

    What is his agenda by behaving like this? Lick the devs asses in hopes to get a Beta key? The devs have said several times that they appreciate discussions on different aspects of the game, especially if its constructive.

    Maybe the devs need to see the full communities opinion before wasting time because of one person who belives that since the devs want feedback, they want one person's opinion about everything without actually playing the game.

    I'm not alone in saying the game have potential, but are sceptic about the combat. Are you happy about how combat looks? My agenda should be clear. I'm trying to help.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    oophus wrote: »
    What is his agenda by behaving like this? Lick the devs asses in hopes to get a Beta key?
    This is the second person you've said this same thing about.

    The funny thing is, both times it was to posters who have been here since 2017,who have the highest post count on the forums,and who both have access to every stage of alpha and beta.

    Maybe retire this like of thinking, it isn't serving you well.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    oophus wrote: »
    My agenda should be clear. I'm trying to help.

    You can't help until you are hands on.

    Simple as that.
  • oophusoophus Member
    edited December 2020
    Noaani wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    What is his agenda by behaving like this? Lick the devs asses in hopes to get a Beta key?
    This is the second person you've said this same thing about.

    The funny thing is, both times it was to posters who have been here since 2017,who have the highest post count on the forums,and who both have access to every stage of alpha and beta.

    Maybe retire this like of thinking, it isn't serving you well.
    It is, because I can't grasp why people would spend so much time just saying the game is perfect as it is, when feedback from people all over is not on that same speed.

    Highest post count kinda fiits my comment, especially when all you guys are saying is "keep everything like it is, the game is perfect" more or less. I don't agree, and its time you accept it.

    The devs welcome feedback, even though you don't, and I am addressing this stuff to them first and foremost, and not you.

    Another post where you don't address the topic in this thread, but rather would speak about bullshit that have zero value in here.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited December 2020
    oophus wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    What is his agenda by behaving like this? Lick the devs asses in hopes to get a Beta key?
    This is the second person you've said this same thing about.

    The funny thing is, both times it was to posters who have been here since 2017,who have the highest post count on the forums,and who both have access to every stage of alpha and beta.

    Maybe retire this like of thinking, it isn't serving you well.
    It is, because I can't grasp why people would spend so much time just saying the game is perfect as it is, when feedback from people all over is not on that same speed.
    No one thinks this game is perfect. A perfect game simply cant exist, as all of us want different things.

    Rather than thinking this game is perfect,we have respect for the expertise on the development team, and understand that any idea we could come up with is something they would have considered years ago.

    Basically, we respect them enough to let them get on with their job. You clearly don't.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    What is his agenda by behaving like this? Lick the devs asses in hopes to get a Beta key?
    This is the second person you've said this same thing about.

    The funny thing is, both times it was to posters who have been here since 2017,who have the highest post count on the forums,and who both have access to every stage of alpha and beta.

    Maybe retire this like of thinking, it isn't serving you well.
    It is, because I can't grasp why people would spend so much time just saying the game is perfect as it is, when feedback from people all over is not on that same speed.
    No one thinks this game is perfect. A perfect game simply cant exist, as all of us want different things.

    Rather than thinking this game is perfect,we have respect for the expertise on the development team, and understand that any idea we could come up with is something they would have considered years ago.

    Basically, we respect them enough to let them get on with their job. You clearly don't.

    1. Then you express what you want, and I express what I want. Deal?
    2. Nothing of what I have said means I don't respect the devs, are you joking!? None of them are so **** that they think constructive feedback is because I diss them flat out. My feedback and interest in this is because they have a really good foundation for this game, and a lot of stuff looks really good. I just want to help flesh out the last parts that would make this game "perfect" for me. If you don't agree with what makes this game perfect, then thats fine, but adress that instead! Explain your stance in relation to the topic at hand, and discuss the topic! Don't speak for the devs - EVER! They can perfectly fine do so them selves, if needed.
    3. Stop assuming stuff that isn't correct, and stop spreading lies! I respect them as much as you do, even though I express my concerns. What you don't see is my thoughts on topics I'm happy about. But why discuss topics I'm happy about? There is nothing there to change or fix!
  • It seems you put too much emphasis on animations. I mean, they look pretty decent for me.
    As long as combat is not like ESO, I'm fine with it.
    Played Wow, Rift, Aion and had nothing against combat in those games.

    If casting a skill doesn't allow movement, I'm ok with that, as long as I can cancel my action.
    Locking in position is something Steven said because Risk vs Reward.

    Now, adding an entirely mode ONLY for testing animations seems overkill, wasted developers time and company money.
    If you want that much details, work for them, honestly.

    Alpha is for testing everything, I don't get the obsession about testing something so specific like animations.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    oophus wrote: »
    1. Then you express what you want, and I express what I want. Deal?
    I've never told you not to, all I have said is that the developers don't care.

    Me disagreeing with you doesn't mean I am telling you to not post.

    Though I will point out, you have told a few people to stop posting,and have suggested you will report people for not being as on topic as you want them to be - so a part of the above deal would have to be that you stop that.
  • BlackBrony wrote: »
    It seems you put too much emphasis on animations. I mean, they look pretty decent for me.
    As long as combat is not like ESO, I'm fine with it.
    Played Wow, Rift, Aion and had nothing against combat in those games.

    If casting a skill doesn't allow movement, I'm ok with that, as long as I can cancel my action.
    Locking in position is something Steven said because Risk vs Reward.

    Now, adding an entirely mode ONLY for testing animations seems overkill, wasted developers time and company money.
    If you want that much details, work for them, honestly.

    Alpha is for testing everything, I don't get the obsession about testing something so specific like animations.

    1. Yes! They do! They have a good animation team behind them. What I'm reacting to is how those animations is implemented. There are several ways one can implement animations in a game. So when the team behind them is talented, I want the best out of it.

    Old school System:
    Pro: Its fast to implement.
    Cons: Its a limiting system. You can't do much with it.

    The animator animates a skill at lets say 90 frames (3 seconds).
    If this is implemented like it is animated in 3DS MAX/Maya or whatever 3D package, they simply read off of a pointcache file. This will make the character do the animation, but we as the player lose control of the character while it does its thing.

    Often when this type of implementing animations is utilized, we see "sliding". I bet you've experienced this in games before. This means that the animation didn't feel right when combined with the rest of the animations at 90 frames, thus in the game engine the "stretch" or "squash" the animations to be shorter or longer < or > of the original 90 frames. This will make the feet "slide" on the floor when you walk or run for example if the animation was a running or walking cycle.

    Most times this type of implementing animations into the game works if its really short. The shorter the animation, the easier it is to utilize this. Thats why I'm sceptical when I see a 3 second long Fireball animations for example, because they used this system. To mee this is a way to long animation to use for such a skill.

    New ways of implementing animations:
    Koreans, and eastern MMORPG's have been the frontrunners of how to make combat feel fast and fluid. Its a shame they fuck the rest up with grinds and Pay to Win systems, seeing as they often get combat feeling correct, and fast paced. Though I don't like exaggerated animations.

    But basically the animator does the same thing. He animates a character for 90 frames for example, but before he export this animation out, he deletes all X,Y,Z movements coordinates from the characters main "bone" (this is often the pelvis of a character rig). This means that when its imported into the game engine, the engine have to be set up to mimic the speed the character moved that was deleted. Often times if we're talking about linear speed, like walking or running, this is no problem. Just move the character whenever "animation X" is running at Y velocity in Z direction.

    Next iteration is to build a system that can take you out of that animation at any frame, and blend it self towards a new "starting pose" of the next animation that is put in queue based on keypresses. This is often used to blend in jumps for example. But if you only use an animation as a basis, a jump will forever only be able to jump X meters high and Y meters long. If they split out and delete the "pelvis movements" in the cashefile, the game engine have to figgure out how to match the animation in terms of distance and when to land. This is where they often introduce animation layers. They split the animation in parts. One for the initial jump. One for when the character "waves his arms and legs" in the air, and one where they land. This means that the game engine can suddenly utilize a jump animation for different purposes and change dynamically. Suddenly you can jump off a 4 meter high cliff, and the animation fits. Or you can utilize the same animation for a normal jump for example.

    The more they utilize this, the better feel the games often gets for movement. And I'm hoping they standardize in this type of blending animations instead of doing the first method here and there to save time.

    The mode I'm talking about already exists. They update this mode locally, and test stuff in it. What I'm asking here is to maybe get more feedback with this environment by making it open to testing until combat feels correct. Something for the devs to think about, and its fitting seeing as they even made a complete different game just to test combat before. This would be way faster, and fit directly into the MMORPG part instead.
  • oophus wrote: »
    stuff
    Oh, think I've seen a video about this, makes sense.
    I mean if it's possible without redoing everything it would be great because the game it's already non full action combat, so it might help to make it more alive.

    It would be a nice addition if it makes everything look fluid
  • for once its not me getting into a verbal fist fight. Neat.
    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • Sathrago wrote: »
    for once its not me getting into a verbal fist fight. Neat.
    I can handle it. They bump my threads, and I get to explain it more. ;)
Sign In or Register to comment.