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Different sized hitboxes - A Suggestion.
oophus
Member
Based in the Wiki, the hitbox discussion doesn't seem finalized yet, so I thought about how one would maybe try and balance different sized characters with different sized hitboxes as a test towards how damage is calculated for projectile type skills and abilities.
https://ibb.co/xYHTF30
I made a example scene with two different sized rigs to illustrate - imagine the one to the left is an ORC model, and the one to the right is a smaller Dwarf model. If the hitboxes were this size, it would obviously be an advantage for the Dwarf, as its way easier to hit the Orc overal with for example an arrow.
So my suggestion for the devs is to test out a duplicate hit-detection system for the rigs.
Kinda like this:
https://ibb.co/q12wn3d
Here we see two bone systems (used as hit-detection) within the bigger Orc model, and to balance out the difference of the two characters, the outer layer of "hitboxes" in the bigger model takes less damage than the smaller ones behind it. The smaller bones are calculated to be as big in volume as the smallest character.
If an arrow hits the legs of the Dwarf model, it for example does 50 damage.
If an arrow hits the outer edges of the same leg for the Orc, it does 10 damage. Only if both hit-boxes are hit, it does the total 50 damage 10dmg for outer hitboxes and 40dmg for inner hotboxes, so to do max damage on the Orc model, you have more or less the same "volume" of area as the Dwarf model.
An alternative to this, while still trying out double-sets of hitboxes would be to try and figure out where "critical parts" of the body was. This way we can remove some of the hitboxes and only place them logically in the rig where "big" damage makes sense. Heart, lungs, liver etc. But the main point is to calculate the overall volume total that is used in the smallest Playable rig and its hitbox, to simulate the same volume within the bigger models and their hitboxes.
https://ibb.co/xYHTF30
I made a example scene with two different sized rigs to illustrate - imagine the one to the left is an ORC model, and the one to the right is a smaller Dwarf model. If the hitboxes were this size, it would obviously be an advantage for the Dwarf, as its way easier to hit the Orc overal with for example an arrow.
So my suggestion for the devs is to test out a duplicate hit-detection system for the rigs.
Kinda like this:
https://ibb.co/q12wn3d
Here we see two bone systems (used as hit-detection) within the bigger Orc model, and to balance out the difference of the two characters, the outer layer of "hitboxes" in the bigger model takes less damage than the smaller ones behind it. The smaller bones are calculated to be as big in volume as the smallest character.
If an arrow hits the legs of the Dwarf model, it for example does 50 damage.
If an arrow hits the outer edges of the same leg for the Orc, it does 10 damage. Only if both hit-boxes are hit, it does the total 50 damage 10dmg for outer hitboxes and 40dmg for inner hotboxes, so to do max damage on the Orc model, you have more or less the same "volume" of area as the Dwarf model.
An alternative to this, while still trying out double-sets of hitboxes would be to try and figure out where "critical parts" of the body was. This way we can remove some of the hitboxes and only place them logically in the rig where "big" damage makes sense. Heart, lungs, liver etc. But the main point is to calculate the overall volume total that is used in the smallest Playable rig and its hitbox, to simulate the same volume within the bigger models and their hitboxes.
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The mixmatch of Tab targeting and Action Combat targeting kinda puts the game in a dilemma regarding hit-boxes. Especially with the different sized characters. So it will be interesting to see how this is dealt with. I'm hoping they do an in depth talk about hitboxes at some point, and how it works in all different situations and combinations. Until this point, its a fun problem to think about, and I'm just airing how I would try different methods to see how it would work in action.
Doing some kind of volume calculations from the smallest playable character, to utilize this towards the biggest is just one way of many to try and solve it. But I think such as system would be one of the more balanced ones. The double-hitbox system kinda simulate "strife-shots" that doesn't do much damage on the bigger characters, and the same volume that does all damage on the smaller characters would have to be hit, for the bigger characters to receive the same amount of damage.
From the Wiki:
"The developers are testing different approaches to accommodate varying hitboxes between the races.[17]"
I'm not changing anything. I'm putting ideas in the developers heads on a topic they are stil testing atm.
This is something I remember bringing up a bit over 2 years ago. However, this isn't the solution to it. While this was unresolved a few years ago, that doesn't mean it is still unresolved.
No, headshot in FPS games just adjusts damage output based on different categories of hitboxes. There they typically have a category for limbs, one for body, and then the final one for the head. Some gamse also differenciate between front, sides and back of the hitboxes.
This system is not anything like that, since the problem at hand here is size variations. Its way easier for an Bow&Arrow player to hit an Orc than an Dwarf since they are different in hight and with. So we need something to adjust for it. One way would be to just adjust damage numbers, but I feel this is the "sloppy" and easy way out.
Until we know more about it, the only thing we can do is speculate, and suggest stuff. If you don't like suggestions for the game, then just leave those threads alone. Ask yourself if your input gives any value towards the devs when they read the forum. Just saying "everything is fine" won't help them. And saying my suggestion is not a solution when you obviously don't understand the suggestion is not helpful either. But the devs will, and this is mostly corrected towards them as something to test out and consider.
What I'm suggesting is max damage based on volume, and would fit MMORPG's with different sized hitboxes, like this one.
Alternative 1 gives the same amount of damage on a leg on small vs big character, but for the big character to experience max damage, the same volume as the small character would be active. Or else smaller numbers. Imagine it as a "glancing blow" for them.
Alternative 2 puts a fewer amount of hitboxes to ease load of calculation to tie it in to crit-type playstyle.
Two different versions, but both is calculated and steered by total volume from small to big rigged characters.
Remember the difference in races will need to be explained during character selection so it needs to be simple to not overwhelm your players.
I still think the easier solution is the best... orcs will have more health so if you go mini dwarf, you will be more fragile
I understood what you are saying - your assumption that others cant read and so need to reiterate the same thing is a little odd. We disagree with you, that doesn't mean we don't understand what you are saying.
An average gamer playing a game with your suggestion would see hits on larger targets dealing different amounts of damage based on exactly where the hit lands, and they would immediately draw parallels to headshot mechanics.
It being different in terms of development means nothing at all, as the end result will feel the same to most gamers.
Also, the reason there are unresolved questions around hitboxes (or unresolved as far as we know) is because Intrepid want hitboxes to be the same for all player characters.
Yea, this kinds of suggestions belong to a "suggestion part" of the forum more ment towards developers. But we don't have one, so this is the only option.
I don't think the hitbox system needs to be explained if its implemented well. People will do experiments on eachother like in most games, and when you shoot on the sides of a character, and experience that it does less damage, then right in the middle of it, that I think is kinda logical and self explanatory.
Remember that my illustration here is bringing this to the extreme just to make a point. In reality the differences won't be that big I think. And for people that don't understand how hitboxes etc work, think of it like this:
The big characters would have a "glanding blow" mechanic where you would do less damage, while the small characters wont.
As I said earlier, they *specifically* don't want this.
So you have gone from telling the developers how to do their job up to telling them what their job should be.
If you hate the game so much that you think you need to tell the developers what they should be doing, why are you here?
Also,the reason there is no suggestion section here is because Steven isn't interested in our suggestions.
Again, he has said exactly that in the past. This is why most of us are here - an MMO that doesn't bother wasting time listening to people that have no idea...
They have never said that specifically, as that comment is around hitbox categories. That means that hitting an arm or the main mass of the body does the same damage. My suggestion doesn't change that. I'm only adding "main-mass" hitboxes to differenciate between a glancing blow on the sides, or when hitting the main volume of the body mass.
Why would anyone want to make a hitbox that is twice the size of the characters? Try to address my points instead of attacking me personally - please. I don't hate the game, I'm just utilizing normal logics and reading skills.The Wiki specially says this:
"The developers are testing different approaches to accommodate varying hitboxes between the races.[17]"
So I assume this is the ultimate goal, and if you don't agree, I'm more interested in your logic behind your statements besides just the statement.
What would feel and play the best? Hitboxes that match the playermodels, or one unified hitbox that is smaller than the Orc model and matches the human models, but are way bigger than the Dwarf models?
I've stated my agenda for why I'm here several times! I love the potential of the game, but I don't like what I'm seeing just jet. That's why I'm addressing topics related to combat.
Steven have several times said he listens to the community. So why spread this lie about him not wanting to listen to our suggestions and feedback?
And you can judge on if I have no "idea"? You are comparing this to categorized hitboxes, which it isn't. Hit the arm of the human, orc or dwarf, and you'd do the same amount of damage. The only difference is on the bigger characters, there are more room to hit a "glancing blow" to do less damage. This simply because they are bigger. Bigger targets are easier to hit, thus they need something to balance that out.
From Steven "allowing headshots in the br allowed us to determine they should not be in the MMO".
I mean, that seems fairly clear to me.
As they said in a recent livestream, hitboxes are not the only avenue they have at their disposable to deal with this issue.
Perhaps more to the point, they have several possibilities lined up ready for us to test, they don't need suggestions from the cheap seats.
What you seem to miss is that my suggestion would not introduce "heatshots". A shot in the head on the Orc would not give more damage than a shot on his torso.
So they are still at a point where they address this as an "issue", which means that they of course are open to read about possible solutions. Both in the UE forums, and here. What is not useful is suggestions that can't be implemetned from people that have no clue how game-systems work. Mine is a possibility, and I've utilized the same system in some particle effects before in my work.
Again, don't speak for the devs. You don't know what they want or need in terms of feedback. Let them do that them selves!
You are making assumptions as to why they decided they didn't want headshots, and an assumption that their desire to not have it only applies to specific shots to the head.
It seems to me that they wouldn't want it for any number of reasons, and most of the reasons they may not want it would also mean they do not want any form of multi-hitbox setup.
They made it quite clear in the livestream they have a number of things to test.
They are not looking for "ideas" here, they have the ideas. Now they just need to test which if their ideas will work best.
Thinking about this as a thought experiment only.
Lets say humans are baseline, and takes 100% damage for being the reference size of the system.
Well clearly orc is taller and wider than human. Maybe their surface areas is a 15% increase. Could give it the hypothetical value of 115%.
I am not sure that 15% damage reduction would be fair. Even if it was only aimed shots that this applies to.
Thinking from a 50 DMG attack you would take 42.5 DMG from just being orc.
50 DMG - 15% = 42.5 DMG
50*0.15=7.5 | 50-7.5=42.5
This is just off the top of my head math. It seems like the size increase is always way more than a fair damage reduction would be.
Maybe a fair formula could be found, but even then I think I would want the it to be based off of the characters surface area. So if you made a fat dwarf or a taller skinny human. The surface area of the model would determine the balance. Assuming we are getting sliders for such things.
It is actually worth investigating because a large amount of games have this issue.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
You have zero clue as to why they don't want cathegories of hitboxes, and have zero right to speak on their behalves on this. Let them speak for themselves.
Again, what is the lotto-numbers for tomorrows eurojackpot? Since it seams like you know what other people think, then maybe you know this types of stuff to? This is ridiculous.
You can't speak on their behalves in what they think and what they need in terms of suggestions, and what to discuss out here!
Literally any time you need to make an assumption about this game, that is what should be the guide.
Where do I state that they don't know what they are doing? I wouldn't have registered here in the first place if that was my stance!
You are pissed off because you put your own spin on stuff I say based on your lack of depth in the topics I touch! I don't care if you don't understand something about the tech, especially when you don't ask questions about it as I know the devs will! Most of this is to help put ideas out there so they can do whatever they want with it.
This feedback, ideas, comments etc is for them, not for you!
Discussing whether they have any value for this is not for you to decide! They are perfectly capable to step in and ask people to stop if someone goes too far, so stop trying to babysit them.
The post in question is the one where you don't know how to use BBCode quoting. Here you are coming across as if to say Intrepid don't want headshots because they can't get them to work, but your idea would allow it. Here you are saying that you know what would feel best for this game, more than the developers would know - somehow you know this without knowing literally anything at all about the game. Here you are acknowledging that you understand the fact that they have systems lined up to test, yet you are still pushing your idea as being better. Here you are providing Intrepid developers with a fail condition - despite having no idea at all about anything to do with the game. Here you are telling the develoeprs what they should be focusing on, as we have discussed already.
Do you now see why I consider your posts to be overtly arrogant?
1. The double-hitbox system would be more data-intensive. One of the reasons they don't want a complex system may be to ease off on data-processing, but neither you nor I know the reasons as we haven't been told specifically as to why yet. Thus the best thing we can do is add suggestions for them to evaluate since THEY know the limitations on their own system. If that is the reason, then they don't even test it. But if its not, that means its possible to test it. The reason I gave this suggestion is because I've never seen it in action before, and it adresses a possible problem of different volume situations in a game such as this. Have they thought of it? Maybe they have, or maybe not. But I'm nok talking the chance that they have either way. Its better to have it here in case they haven't, than assuming that they have for all suggestions and ideas. That would make this forum useless if everyone assumed the devs are more or less gods. Something I highly disagree with seeing as they ended up utilizing the fireball animation up to this point. Both its length, its flamboyant style, and for it to be a total animation-lock for a skill this early. They can handle feedback on it, and its way better for something to raise the alarm now, than to do it later.
2. All of it is suggestions based on my thoughts. Its not etched in stone as some form of universal truths! I'm talking to grown ups here, people who have been in this business for years! They know how to have normal discussions and can handle feedback. The meaning behind that quote is me saying that I feel the game would feel the best if they were able to end up having different sized hitboxes while it still made sense. So I'm sceptical on they still trying ways to make it work - thus this thread and this suggestions. Basing hitboxes on volume to get max damage makes sense to me. Will it do that for them while testing? Maybe not, but at least then they tested or evaluated the possibility - which is all I can ask for.
3.Yes. They are still testing, and I gave them an idea on another system to test. The fact that they haven't figured it out yet means they should be open and happy to see ideas on this.
You trying to push ideas down and away from the forum is just idiotic.
4. I know how hitboxes work, and I know plenty about gamedesign, and how difficult this problem is! This is one of many, many alternatives to test, and my idea may even not be utilized like how it is lined out to be, but it can be a basis for something else.
5. I don't care what you think about my posts. If you think I'm being arrogant, then so be it. I know the devs won't think that way, as they are used to alter their work all the time. Its the life of being a developer. Ideas are meant to be plentiful and that's why we have brainstorm sessions. The more alternatives for testing there is, the better!
What is the point in coming on the forums than? I like it when people agree with me, but sometimes people like Noaani help me to see the short comings in my opinions. I have argued with Noaani a few times in the months I have been here. Never came out of it hating him. It normally helps me to refine opinions that just started as gut feelings.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Indeed.
With some people, when you challenge what they think, they reassess their opinion. Sometimes they change it, sometimes they don't. These people are always good to have discussions with, as these discussions are never about trying to prove one is right and one is wrong, but tend to be more about understanding the other persons perspective, even if everyone eventually still disagrees.
Other people, when you challenge their opinion, they refuse to reassess their opinion, and often start claiming questions on their opinion are personal attacks (this is the easiest way to recognize this type of poster).
When I engage with a poster on a topic, I give them every opportunity to decide which of these two they want to be. I prefer the former of the two, but won't shy away from the latter.