I hope the dwarves we can make more muscular and not look like midgets. more of Lord of rings movies or Warhammer MMO even WOWs are good looking dwarves. I really like playing dwarf hopefully will look good or can adjust body sizes to make look the way we want
Retail WoW's look ok now, but vanilla - cat (maybe mop) they had hideous faces. Like literally looked really rapey. But definitely agree something more akin to tolkien is needed.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think their current look will save them from griefing a bit, no one wants to attack children. But jokes aside, I do hope to see them in game as they are now, and I like your point @Ravudha
Ashes made it their own. In several years or decades, people may look back at this game as the standard.
Well at some piont it becomes just unlogic. if they have 50% of the height of a human and 50% the Mass they could not compete in Fighthing on a Martial level, because they have much less reach much less strenght/ energie they can produce because of the low mass. It is like a man figthing a 10 year old kid.In that case they would need to be powered by magic in some way or form. I personally see the small statue more lika a ristriction for dwarfes to only able to pick a magical class. (If not it breaks the emerson for me, because I think even in Fantasy all caracters should have the same Laws( of physiks for example). It needs to seem logic in that universe and that is why the popular Fantasy/Sci Fi universes are so popular. They seem to have logic and rules that make the story belifeable/not breaking the immersion.
But that is just my opinion. I guess other people like other tings.
Look, I understand mice are happy to participate in a bit of cannibalism in desperate times - but it's just not appropriate for humans. Much less elves.
I hope you understand.
I've been looking at videos of Ashes and would like to add my 2 cents here: the problem isn't just that dwarves aren't muscular enough, they are just too small.
I'd say the bigger problem is that people think one fantasy universe/IP (e.g. D&D, WoW, Tolkien) sets a standard that other fantasy settings need to copy and can't deviate from.
Edit: don't know if there's much that can be done about it though; people like what they like.
I don't think that's entirely correct.
First of all, it's not true that designers can't deviate from staples at all. Elves, to pick one example, can vary greatly between IPs, D&D elves are smaller and slimmer than humans, while Night Elves in WoW are much taller than humans, with Male Night elves in particular being broad shouldered body builders.
Aside from the actual physical attributes, there is the actual fantasy of what it is being a Dwarf or an Elf. The stereotypical Dwarf isn't a nible thief, it's a short but bulky person that's about as easy to push around as a stone, and is more than capable of going toe to toe with taller races. Someone might imagine a fantasy universe where that is not the case, but Ashes of Creation is not such universe, to quote the wiki:
> Don't be deceived by their stout stature. They're pound for pound the strongest warriors the world has ever known.
The physical appearence of Dunir in game simply fails to live up to the fantasy that the game's own creators set it up to be.
Edit: I reckon that last sentence sounds very negative, so to add some context: aside from the stature and maybe the length of the beards (which is more of a nit-pick), the design of the armor and architecture is on the money. Everything I've seen about the game so far has me mildly optimistic, I only comment here in hopes of making the game better.
Are you trying to speedrun getting decapitated and having your head stuck on a pike outside a grand mountain kingdom?
Is that a threat stunting
That's the funny thing about the undead. They always lose. And you'll be no exception.
Yeah been there done that and I'm still here unlike your holds
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I am going to disagree with a lot of you.
I think they are on the right path.
Have the courage to do your own thing. Make them as you see fit.
If I wanted to play the same ole same ole I would go play that. I am here for something different.
Why do Dwarves HAVE to be the way Tolkien said?
Why can't they be different?
I say have the courage to be different. Stand on your own and do your own thing.
Big part of why I like the Tulnar they are different they don't look like everything else.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
I've been looking at videos of Ashes and would like to add my 2 cents here: the problem isn't just that dwarves aren't muscular enough, they are just too small.
I'd say the bigger problem is that people think one fantasy universe/IP (e.g. D&D, WoW, Tolkien) sets a standard that other fantasy settings need to copy and can't deviate from.
Edit: don't know if there's much that can be done about it though; people like what they like.
I don't think that's entirely correct.
First of all, it's not true that designers can't deviate from staples at all. Elves, to pick one example, can vary greatly between IPs, D&D elves are smaller and slimmer than humans, while Night Elves in WoW are much taller than humans, with Male Night elves in particular being broad shouldered body builders.
Aside from the actual physical attributes, there is the actual fantasy of what it is being a Dwarf or an Elf. The stereotypical Dwarf isn't a nible thief, it's a short but bulky person that's about as easy to push around as a stone, and is more than capable of going toe to toe with taller races. Someone might imagine a fantasy universe where that is not the case, but Ashes of Creation is not such universe, to quote the wiki:
> Don't be deceived by their stout stature. They're pound for pound the strongest warriors the world has ever known.
The physical appearence of Dunir in game simply fails to live up to the fantasy that the game's own creators set it up to be.
Edit: I reckon that last sentence sounds very negative, so to add some context: aside from the stature and maybe the length of the beards (which is more of a nit-pick), the design of the armor and architecture is on the money. Everything I've seen about the game so far has me mildly optimistic, I only comment here in hopes of making the game better.
Ah sorry - to clarify, by people I meant players, not the devs - of course devs know they change things. Players tend to look at other IPs and think 'that's the standard'.
Personally, I think they do look stout. The Dunir and Nikua are shown with heavy builds, and the Dunir male in armour looks fairly muscular on top - sure, they're not as stout as in other IPs, but that's not my standard. It's pretty subjective in the end.
I've been looking at videos of Ashes and would like to add my 2 cents here: the problem isn't just that dwarves aren't muscular enough, they are just too small.
I'd say the bigger problem is that people think one fantasy universe/IP (e.g. D&D, WoW, Tolkien) sets a standard that other fantasy settings need to copy and can't deviate from.
Edit: don't know if there's much that can be done about it though; people like what they like.
I don't think that's entirely correct.
First of all, it's not true that designers can't deviate from staples at all. Elves, to pick one example, can vary greatly between IPs, D&D elves are smaller and slimmer than humans, while Night Elves in WoW are much taller than humans, with Male Night elves in particular being broad shouldered body builders.
Aside from the actual physical attributes, there is the actual fantasy of what it is being a Dwarf or an Elf. The stereotypical Dwarf isn't a nible thief, it's a short but bulky person that's about as easy to push around as a stone, and is more than capable of going toe to toe with taller races. Someone might imagine a fantasy universe where that is not the case, but Ashes of Creation is not such universe, to quote the wiki:
> Don't be deceived by their stout stature. They're pound for pound the strongest warriors the world has ever known.
The physical appearence of Dunir in game simply fails to live up to the fantasy that the game's own creators set it up to be.
Edit: I reckon that last sentence sounds very negative, so to add some context: aside from the stature and maybe the length of the beards (which is more of a nit-pick), the design of the armor and architecture is on the money. Everything I've seen about the game so far has me mildly optimistic, I only comment here in hopes of making the game better.
Ah sorry - to clarify, by people I meant players, not the devs - of course devs know they change things. Players tend to look at other IPs and think 'that's the standard'.
Personally, I think they do look stout. The Dunir and Nikua are shown with heavy builds, and the Dunir male in armour looks fairly muscular on top - sure, they're not as stout as in other IPs, but that's not my standard. It's pretty subjective in the end.
I did understand you meant players. If you advertise the setting as "Western Fantasy", and you put in a race called "Dwarf", and everything about that race: the description, the iconography, the architecture, the style of the armor, the fact that they live in the mountains etc. is the most straight forward, iconic, cookie cutter representation of the race people are familiar with, but then fall short (no pun intended) on visual implementation, so much so it ruins the fantasy you set it out to be, and find it doesn't resonate with the target audience, the audience is not the problem.
It's okay to try to be different: Asura in GW2 fit the "small race" bill, Aumaua and Orlans in Pillars series fit the "big race" and "small race" bills respectively. This ain't it.
In the early Norse mythology, there's no mention of dwarfs being short, so it's by no means a "must". And, as a short man myself, who is maybe a head or so smaller than others, but not half their height, I recognise that the word "short" itself is an ambiguous and relative one.
I did understand you meant players. If you advertise the setting as "Western Fantasy", and you put in a race called "Dwarf", and everything about that race: the description, the iconography, the architecture, the style of the armor, the fact that they live in the mountains etc. is the most straight forward, iconic, cookie cutter representation of the race people are familiar with, but then fall short (no pun intended) on visual implementation, so much so it ruins the fantasy you set it out to be, and find it doesn't resonate with the target audience, the audience is not the problem.
I can appreciate that - while other IPs do change certain aspects of dwarves, they keep the physical appearance quite consistent.
My main concern is are the in game models consistent with the lore/how Dunir were originally marketed. So I went back and looked and the early Dunir concept art and saw that they are in fact taller and stockier than the in game models we've seen (they're similar to the D&D image you linked). So I have to agree with your main conclusion that the visual representation is off.
I just wish we had the sliders to make more beards and change the looks we like I can understand some people like certain looks but some people who have played dwarfs for years in MMO's have their style of dwarf or for that matter ELF ORC.... It would just be nice to have a character with the look you like to portray yourself in the game with. I have been plying MMO's for many years and have played dwarves for almost everyone, I understand that ashes has its look and that's fine just hope to have the ability to make some changes.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Sliders are planned for launch.
Humans are slated for more options in July.
We'll have to see when they are able to add more appearances for Dwarves.
I would expect to see more options for Dwarves by Alpha 2.
I really like the direction they set out for both Nikua and Dunir. I know my chonky breathern are having a hard time, but man they are getting a lot of the /details/ right even if the frame for Dunir could use a little more stout bulk. The beards, facial structures, etc I have seen in alpha are very easily scaled for sliders to get closer to what I think people want Dunir to be. They are probably just 'in the middle' for Nikua and Dunir because it's easier. Between the past few spot tests they've improved the models a bit. So I think people are being heard.
I really disagree with the gnome comments though. Gnomes have a very different build from either Dunir or Nikua even in their current rough draft forms. Gnomes have similar proportions to regular sized humans, and tend to have narrower faces. They also tend to look like they can't get fat easily in most iterations. The current Dunir, and the concept art for the Nikua are definitely not like this. Nikua would probably fit closest to 'gnome', but even they tend to be a lot sturdier build with plenty of room for their own chonk. There is a lot that goes in to making something feel 'sturdy'. I don't think they are at beefy tolkien dwarf for the Dunir males yet. But it's not hard to get there from where they are. I'd wait to lose faith till alpha 2 when that's going to be a larger sign. But please, keep asking for what you want my beefy buds!
Small print leads to large risks.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited June 2021
Ha! I followed you a bit in the test today as Briarthorn.
We even had a bit dialogue in Mistmire - which popped as an Elven Village.
Drythorne popped as a Dunir Village.
I don't know if you noticed, but when I put on that "Evil Eye" armor, it had been scaled up a bit, so it was somewhat larger than my avatar.
Taller, bulkier and wider.
Oh! Also seemed like I saw some NPC Dwarves with heads that are not currently available in the character creator!
Ah, yeah it did scale up quite a bit. I think their modeling defaults are kind of wonky and just going with the default the modeling artist used rather than trying to scale it to a specific gender. More evidence that a lot of the sliders are planned to get quite bulky like people want.
Also there is nothing more creepy than some random guy going 'what are you hiding from' while your staring at your map trying to figure out which city to go to on the top of a fucking mountain where your supposed to be alone. Thankfully for us both I didn't decide to thwack you right then and there as I already determined that I needed to go to the seige area lol.
Small print leads to large risks.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Creepers gonna creep.
You were trying to hide away in some bushes while you were in the middle of nowhere.
But, you didn't have a high enough Stealth.
IIRC, that was way before the Siege. We ended up at Mistmere, which I think had just popped to Village or was just about to pop to Village. And there was plenty of time to quest before the Siege began.
(We teleport to the Siege anyways. From any Village, I think.)
Seemed like there were quite a few more quests than were available previously.
I think we are closer to the build the devs have been playing.
Comments
Retail WoW's look ok now, but vanilla - cat (maybe mop) they had hideous faces. Like literally looked really rapey. But definitely agree something more akin to tolkien is needed.
Ashes made it their own. In several years or decades, people may look back at this game as the standard.
But that is just my opinion. I guess other people like other tings.
You're not a parent, are you.....
Look, I understand mice are happy to participate in a bit of cannibalism in desperate times - but it's just not appropriate for humans. Much less elves.
I hope you understand.
I don't think that's entirely correct.
First of all, it's not true that designers can't deviate from staples at all. Elves, to pick one example, can vary greatly between IPs, D&D elves are smaller and slimmer than humans, while Night Elves in WoW are much taller than humans, with Male Night elves in particular being broad shouldered body builders.
Aside from the actual physical attributes, there is the actual fantasy of what it is being a Dwarf or an Elf. The stereotypical Dwarf isn't a nible thief, it's a short but bulky person that's about as easy to push around as a stone, and is more than capable of going toe to toe with taller races. Someone might imagine a fantasy universe where that is not the case, but Ashes of Creation is not such universe, to quote the wiki:
> Don't be deceived by their stout stature. They're pound for pound the strongest warriors the world has ever known.
The physical appearence of Dunir in game simply fails to live up to the fantasy that the game's own creators set it up to be.
Edit: I reckon that last sentence sounds very negative, so to add some context: aside from the stature and maybe the length of the beards (which is more of a nit-pick), the design of the armor and architecture is on the money. Everything I've seen about the game so far has me mildly optimistic, I only comment here in hopes of making the game better.
Better be quick about it. I got a noose with your name on it.
Are you trying to speedrun getting decapitated and having your head stuck on a pike outside a grand mountain kingdom?
Got some steel chains and a wrought iron pirosn cell in that mountain kingdom I spoke of just for you.
Damned straight!
Is that a threat stunting
That's the funny thing about the undead. They always lose. And you'll be no exception.
Yeah been there done that and I'm still here unlike your holds
I think they are on the right path.
Have the courage to do your own thing. Make them as you see fit.
If I wanted to play the same ole same ole I would go play that. I am here for something different.
Why do Dwarves HAVE to be the way Tolkien said?
Why can't they be different?
I say have the courage to be different. Stand on your own and do your own thing.
Big part of why I like the Tulnar they are different they don't look like everything else.
Thank goodness...
Ah sorry - to clarify, by people I meant players, not the devs - of course devs know they change things. Players tend to look at other IPs and think 'that's the standard'.
Personally, I think they do look stout. The Dunir and Nikua are shown with heavy builds, and the Dunir male in armour looks fairly muscular on top - sure, they're not as stout as in other IPs, but that's not my standard. It's pretty subjective in the end.
I did understand you meant players. If you advertise the setting as "Western Fantasy", and you put in a race called "Dwarf", and everything about that race: the description, the iconography, the architecture, the style of the armor, the fact that they live in the mountains etc. is the most straight forward, iconic, cookie cutter representation of the race people are familiar with, but then fall short (no pun intended) on visual implementation, so much so it ruins the fantasy you set it out to be, and find it doesn't resonate with the target audience, the audience is not the problem.
It's okay to try to be different: Asura in GW2 fit the "small race" bill, Aumaua and Orlans in Pillars series fit the "big race" and "small race" bills respectively. This ain't it.
I can appreciate that - while other IPs do change certain aspects of dwarves, they keep the physical appearance quite consistent.
My main concern is are the in game models consistent with the lore/how Dunir were originally marketed. So I went back and looked and the early Dunir concept art and saw that they are in fact taller and stockier than the in game models we've seen (they're similar to the D&D image you linked). So I have to agree with your main conclusion that the visual representation is off.
Humans are slated for more options in July.
We'll have to see when they are able to add more appearances for Dwarves.
I would expect to see more options for Dwarves by Alpha 2.
I really disagree with the gnome comments though. Gnomes have a very different build from either Dunir or Nikua even in their current rough draft forms. Gnomes have similar proportions to regular sized humans, and tend to have narrower faces. They also tend to look like they can't get fat easily in most iterations. The current Dunir, and the concept art for the Nikua are definitely not like this. Nikua would probably fit closest to 'gnome', but even they tend to be a lot sturdier build with plenty of room for their own chonk. There is a lot that goes in to making something feel 'sturdy'. I don't think they are at beefy tolkien dwarf for the Dunir males yet. But it's not hard to get there from where they are. I'd wait to lose faith till alpha 2 when that's going to be a larger sign. But please, keep asking for what you want my beefy buds!
We even had a bit dialogue in Mistmire - which popped as an Elven Village.
Drythorne popped as a Dunir Village.
I don't know if you noticed, but when I put on that "Evil Eye" armor, it had been scaled up a bit, so it was somewhat larger than my avatar.
Taller, bulkier and wider.
Oh! Also seemed like I saw some NPC Dwarves with heads that are not currently available in the character creator!
Also there is nothing more creepy than some random guy going 'what are you hiding from' while your staring at your map trying to figure out which city to go to on the top of a fucking mountain where your supposed to be alone. Thankfully for us both I didn't decide to thwack you right then and there as I already determined that I needed to go to the seige area lol.
You were trying to hide away in some bushes while you were in the middle of nowhere.
But, you didn't have a high enough Stealth.
IIRC, that was way before the Siege. We ended up at Mistmere, which I think had just popped to Village or was just about to pop to Village. And there was plenty of time to quest before the Siege began.
(We teleport to the Siege anyways. From any Village, I think.)
Seemed like there were quite a few more quests than were available previously.
I think we are closer to the build the devs have been playing.