Feelings from an outside observer
Rikeri
Member
Hello everyone,
I started this post on the last day of 2020.
I couldn't sleep last night.
I just watched a video on Youtube from someone giving his impressions on the last skills videos (mage + cleric)
and the level 10 boss.
He was reserve and negatively cautious. A sentence struck me : Intrepid studio is an indy studio.
Before I was ordinary optimistist towards the project, but as a resul of the video,
I realize that, even if I feel that Steven has a strong/clear/well thought vision for his game,
I am afraid that certain aspects will come out as "not as good" as desired.
Disclaimer: I don't have access to the alpha.
I just watched a lot of videos about the game.
I am certain I will make errors in my assumptions.
I couldn't check every points.
I just wanted, by this post, express some ideas/reflections/worries I had.
It is difficult to assess systems when you don't see the whole picture. And you can not test them.
My intentions are to fund the project, to test the alpha 2 and help/ give my feedback in my best of abilities.
But in the meanwhile, I couldn't wait that long to express myself.
A few words about my MMO gaming background:
I started by playing Rappelz, then play Warhammer Online and Guilds Wars 2.
By using Guild Wars 2 as an example, I would like to address differents thematics on combat:
1) Players collisions
2) Players skills
3) Swap weapon
4) Players interdependency
5) Mobility (melee / range)
1) Players collisions = If players can go through each other / Their bodies block the movement of someone else.
Personnaly, I would like no collision.
In the Pve World, it will remove potentials griefing. People will block entry way.
In mass pvp, it will make the combat more fluid. Especially with a lot of people.
I remember in Warhammer Online, it was not the case. As soon as you had to go stairs or go through a door, it was really difficult.
In the following videos, you can see fighters moving on the battlefield.
Yes, you can stack and have a zerg mentality. But if you are fighting in a raid, it is normal to act as a zerg.
So the ability to stack (no player collision) gave a great feeling of mobility and unity with your group.
I prefer that my movements are hindered by an ability of a player not just by their body.
Guild Wars 2 WvW: https://youtu.be/nJkLz6n1ta8
Warhammer RvR : https://youtu.be/6y7lrjp0nL0?t=71
2) Players skills = Where are skills coming from/related to?
This part is really difficult to assess (for the reasons stated in my introduction).
So I will take Guild Wars 2 as an example to explain why I like their system.
It has 10 skills.
The first 5 are based on the weapons you used.
Taking a different weapon change completely your skills/way of playing.
So visually, you do do something else.
I understand that with your class systems (mix of 2 archetypes), you also want to have a large variety of builds.
But I have the feeling
# that you can not change immediately your playstyle. You have to go back to a node, to pay a respecialisation fee.
# that it will be less organic.
My weapons dictates how I will play. Visually, my oponnents can indentify immediately how I will play / what I will do.
# that visually, my skills are related to my weapons. It makes more sense.
So when I saw the preview for the skills of the cleric and the mage.
All the showcases were without weapons. It brakes the immersion. Is the weapon just a skin / a "stat giver" ?
I have the feeling that the class will lock your skills for too long.
Yes the augments and the second archetype will bring diversity.
It brings diversity but it still stay the same skill.
Lets take again the "charge" skills from the fighter.
An augment can increase the speed or the damage or the range...
The second archtype can make it a blink,...
But you are still doing the same thing.
To summarise, I have the feeling that you will be able to specialise but you are still doing the same thing.
It is a strange feeling : Be different but be the same
At this point, I just remind everyone about my disclaimer.
Let me finish this subject by giving an example with Guilds Wars 2.
I played the warrior. Here are differents roles I could play with him, by changing my weapons, I change my skills.
Sword : I can jump forward and move faster.
Long sword : dps
Hammer : crowd control
Shield : defense
Horn - banners : buff
Shouts : healing
Bow : distance dps
I hope that this example shows the versatibility of the character and how his skills take organically their origins from / visually linked to his weapons.
3) Swap weapons
I really like this aspect. As the skills cooldowns are not shared, it brings an extra layer on my build decision.
So I can decide how I will do my rotation of skills.
PS : having a basic attack / the "Q" attack as a "filler" is underwhelming.
4) Players interdependency = How players from a same team interact with each other during a fight?
Normally, each participant has their role. Everyone executes their rotation in the best optimal way.
But let me explain how Guild Wars 2 added a layer by making the players interdependant.
The field/finisher mechanic:
Someone creates field - the others apply a finisher.
Let's give some example:
Someone put a water field - the other do some explosions = everyone is healed.
Someone put a fire field - the other do some explosions = everyone get a buff a might.
etc...
By playing together, by interacting with a skill of another player, it creates cohesion.
What can we do together to be stronger?
It improves the group coordination.
5) Mobility
I remember some discussions on the balance between melee / range.
My feeling is that range dps are too much immobile when casting a skill. (Healers too)
Staying immobile to just cast 1 fireball seems too punitive.
The risk is too great.
Someone immobile is like a sitting duck and will be an easy target.
Immobility doesnt match the philosophy of an hybrid action combat.
To summarise my combat thoughts, I would like a combat :
Here are other feedback/food for toughts:
6) Loot = who receive a loot?
I have the feeling that some people will be discourage to participate at certain content.
If I understand correctly the group who do the most damage, receive the loot. (the treshold depends on the tag of the mob)
I anticipate loot stealing.
I fear that it will create a zerg mentality in pve.
If you want to receive something, you have to be 40 players.
If you are a solo player and you encounter an event where a group is already playing, where is my motivation to participate if I will not receive any loot?
You can have the same reasoning with a group against a raid...
I would like that everyone receive a loot following rules of different tiers:
60% of dps - 40% of dps with tag = receive the best loot from table
20-50% = medium loot
less 20% = small loot
The % of dps and value of the loot need to be refined but I prefer this philosophy.
PS - Disclaimer : I am not sure if this loot philosophy is just for World bosses or also for normal pve creatures in the world.
The question is : Are we in competition for everything in the game?
Should we help someone else?
Do we have to group immediately to be fair and receive a loot?
7) Do you think your game will become toxic?
Do you embrass it?
8) I hope that we will be able to test the game also at max level / max skills / gears.
Even at different level brackets.
For example, I hope the community will be able to test the skills at level 10 then 20 - 30 - 40 - 50.
For example in Castles sieges.
9) You mentioned several times that you are still searching for talents.
As a customer, it is difficult to assess the performance of a developper.
But I remember that I enjoyed the work of Isaiah Cartwright.
He worked for a long time at Arenanet (Guild Wars 2)
https://twitter.com/izzycartwright
To finish, let me state again that this post is my initial feelings from an outside observer.
I will fund the project and hope to give more in dept feedbacks from actual testing.
I started this post on the last day of 2020.
I couldn't sleep last night.
I just watched a video on Youtube from someone giving his impressions on the last skills videos (mage + cleric)
and the level 10 boss.
He was reserve and negatively cautious. A sentence struck me : Intrepid studio is an indy studio.
Before I was ordinary optimistist towards the project, but as a resul of the video,
I realize that, even if I feel that Steven has a strong/clear/well thought vision for his game,
I am afraid that certain aspects will come out as "not as good" as desired.
Disclaimer: I don't have access to the alpha.
I just watched a lot of videos about the game.
I am certain I will make errors in my assumptions.
I couldn't check every points.
I just wanted, by this post, express some ideas/reflections/worries I had.
It is difficult to assess systems when you don't see the whole picture. And you can not test them.
My intentions are to fund the project, to test the alpha 2 and help/ give my feedback in my best of abilities.
But in the meanwhile, I couldn't wait that long to express myself.
A few words about my MMO gaming background:
I started by playing Rappelz, then play Warhammer Online and Guilds Wars 2.
By using Guild Wars 2 as an example, I would like to address differents thematics on combat:
1) Players collisions
2) Players skills
3) Swap weapon
4) Players interdependency
5) Mobility (melee / range)
1) Players collisions = If players can go through each other / Their bodies block the movement of someone else.
Personnaly, I would like no collision.
In the Pve World, it will remove potentials griefing. People will block entry way.
In mass pvp, it will make the combat more fluid. Especially with a lot of people.
I remember in Warhammer Online, it was not the case. As soon as you had to go stairs or go through a door, it was really difficult.
In the following videos, you can see fighters moving on the battlefield.
Yes, you can stack and have a zerg mentality. But if you are fighting in a raid, it is normal to act as a zerg.
So the ability to stack (no player collision) gave a great feeling of mobility and unity with your group.
I prefer that my movements are hindered by an ability of a player not just by their body.
Guild Wars 2 WvW: https://youtu.be/nJkLz6n1ta8
Warhammer RvR : https://youtu.be/6y7lrjp0nL0?t=71
2) Players skills = Where are skills coming from/related to?
This part is really difficult to assess (for the reasons stated in my introduction).
So I will take Guild Wars 2 as an example to explain why I like their system.
It has 10 skills.
The first 5 are based on the weapons you used.
Taking a different weapon change completely your skills/way of playing.
So visually, you do do something else.
I understand that with your class systems (mix of 2 archetypes), you also want to have a large variety of builds.
But I have the feeling
# that you can not change immediately your playstyle. You have to go back to a node, to pay a respecialisation fee.
# that it will be less organic.
My weapons dictates how I will play. Visually, my oponnents can indentify immediately how I will play / what I will do.
# that visually, my skills are related to my weapons. It makes more sense.
So when I saw the preview for the skills of the cleric and the mage.
All the showcases were without weapons. It brakes the immersion. Is the weapon just a skin / a "stat giver" ?
I have the feeling that the class will lock your skills for too long.
Yes the augments and the second archetype will bring diversity.
It brings diversity but it still stay the same skill.
Lets take again the "charge" skills from the fighter.
An augment can increase the speed or the damage or the range...
The second archtype can make it a blink,...
But you are still doing the same thing.
To summarise, I have the feeling that you will be able to specialise but you are still doing the same thing.
It is a strange feeling : Be different but be the same
At this point, I just remind everyone about my disclaimer.
Let me finish this subject by giving an example with Guilds Wars 2.
I played the warrior. Here are differents roles I could play with him, by changing my weapons, I change my skills.
Sword : I can jump forward and move faster.
Long sword : dps
Hammer : crowd control
Shield : defense
Horn - banners : buff
Shouts : healing
Bow : distance dps
I hope that this example shows the versatibility of the character and how his skills take organically their origins from / visually linked to his weapons.
3) Swap weapons
I really like this aspect. As the skills cooldowns are not shared, it brings an extra layer on my build decision.
So I can decide how I will do my rotation of skills.
PS : having a basic attack / the "Q" attack as a "filler" is underwhelming.
4) Players interdependency = How players from a same team interact with each other during a fight?
Normally, each participant has their role. Everyone executes their rotation in the best optimal way.
But let me explain how Guild Wars 2 added a layer by making the players interdependant.
The field/finisher mechanic:
Someone creates field - the others apply a finisher.
Let's give some example:
Someone put a water field - the other do some explosions = everyone is healed.
Someone put a fire field - the other do some explosions = everyone get a buff a might.
etc...
By playing together, by interacting with a skill of another player, it creates cohesion.
What can we do together to be stronger?
It improves the group coordination.
5) Mobility
I remember some discussions on the balance between melee / range.
My feeling is that range dps are too much immobile when casting a skill. (Healers too)
Staying immobile to just cast 1 fireball seems too punitive.
The risk is too great.
Someone immobile is like a sitting duck and will be an easy target.
Immobility doesnt match the philosophy of an hybrid action combat.
To summarise my combat thoughts, I would like a combat :
with mobility (no player collision, less immobility when casting)
with skills based on the weapon (for more versatibility and more visualy linked)
with more interdependency between players in a group (we can react to skills of someone else, so we get stronger together)
with skills based on the weapon (for more versatibility and more visualy linked)
with more interdependency between players in a group (we can react to skills of someone else, so we get stronger together)
Here are other feedback/food for toughts:
6) Loot = who receive a loot?
I have the feeling that some people will be discourage to participate at certain content.
If I understand correctly the group who do the most damage, receive the loot. (the treshold depends on the tag of the mob)
I anticipate loot stealing.
I fear that it will create a zerg mentality in pve.
If you want to receive something, you have to be 40 players.
If you are a solo player and you encounter an event where a group is already playing, where is my motivation to participate if I will not receive any loot?
You can have the same reasoning with a group against a raid...
I would like that everyone receive a loot following rules of different tiers:
60% of dps - 40% of dps with tag = receive the best loot from table
20-50% = medium loot
less 20% = small loot
The % of dps and value of the loot need to be refined but I prefer this philosophy.
PS - Disclaimer : I am not sure if this loot philosophy is just for World bosses or also for normal pve creatures in the world.
The question is : Are we in competition for everything in the game?
Should we help someone else?
Do we have to group immediately to be fair and receive a loot?
7) Do you think your game will become toxic?
Do you embrass it?
8) I hope that we will be able to test the game also at max level / max skills / gears.
Even at different level brackets.
For example, I hope the community will be able to test the skills at level 10 then 20 - 30 - 40 - 50.
For example in Castles sieges.
9) You mentioned several times that you are still searching for talents.
As a customer, it is difficult to assess the performance of a developper.
But I remember that I enjoyed the work of Isaiah Cartwright.
He worked for a long time at Arenanet (Guild Wars 2)
https://twitter.com/izzycartwright
To finish, let me state again that this post is my initial feelings from an outside observer.
I will fund the project and hope to give more in dept feedbacks from actual testing.
Thank you Steven and all your team for your passion and hard work you are putting into this game.
I want to wish everyone an Happy New Year.
I wish everyone will stay safe and get through this difficult period.
I want to wish everyone an Happy New Year.
I wish everyone will stay safe and get through this difficult period.
0
Comments
https://ashesofcreation.wiki
Enjoy!
I didn't have the chance to check the wiki yet. (i will ;-) )
If you have time, don't hesitate to be more specific and give your feeling on specific issues with some link to the wiki :-)
Player Collisions:
"Inertia and momentum physics will help prevent blocking doorways/access points. This is based on a character's direction and movement speed, and can be used to push people out of the way.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_movement
Weapon Skills:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Weapon_use_combo_system
Looting:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Looting
I'll get straight into it.
1. Player Collision
AoC is against zerg fighting. Zerging bosses is done in BDO/L2 and it makes the boss boring. Player collision will help reduce zerging (along with other unannounced anti-zerg methods). There has been discussion already about people blocking doorways/stairs/etc. You will be able to push people out of the way. If it's still a problem, you can kill the person blocking the way.
You can read more about it here: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Collision
2. Player Skill
AoC has 3 Skill types: Active Class Skills, Passive Class Skills, and Weapon Skills
This is why the class skills in the previews don't match the weapons - all classes can use all weapons
So you can be a priest with Weapon Skills for a dagger, and priest abilities.
However, I agree with you - I feel like the classes have no identity if they can use all weapons - but maybe that freedom lets players create their own identities? We'll see.
You can read more about Skills here: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Skills
3. Swapping Weapons
You will not be able to swap weapons in the middle of combat. Only ranged characters have a seperate weapon for enemies that get into melee range.
Please bear in mind that the combat system is being redesigned - we should see more news about this in March 2021.
You can read more about Weapon Swapping here: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Weapon_swapping
4. Player Interdependency
At the moment the only interdependent skills that have been mentioned are for Sieges, where 8 people of the same archetype can gather to create a monumental effect. You can read more about it here: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Siege_summons
I would love to see more player intedependant skills - especially with an emergent design. However, I'm not sure the designers will have enough time to do this.
5. Mobility of Classes
Lots of people are concerned about being stuck in combat animations. You are not alone here. Combat is being redesigned, they will show us more in ~March 2021. However, they have said that only certain classes will be able to active dodge.
6. Loot Distribution
Loot rules will be decided by Party leaders. You can read more about it here: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Looting
I need to stress though: You cannot expect to get end-game gear in AoC as a solo player. You will need to make friends.
7. Managing Toxicity
AoC plans to adopt Lineage 2's (L2) Corruption System - it was very effective in L2, but Steven also has plans for other methods to manage bad behaviour. You are allowed to be toxic, but the community will punish you for being a toxic person. Steven also plans to hire active GMs to patrol the servers.
More info about the corruption system here: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_corruption
8. Testing environment
Alpha 1 testing is under a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) at the moment, so nobody will be able to tell you anything very helpful yet. Alpha 2 will be the beginning of the persistent test server (no date yet)
9. Talent Search
You can see the specific roles that they're interested in on Intrepid's Career page here: https://intrepidstudios.com/careers
Hope that helps
At least, to not stay in a hype / blind mode will make me more active, cautious and critical.
I will wait to test before giving more impression.
But I will react to :
1)Player Collision
I had more a mass pvp view of the issue. To have more fluidity
6) Loot distribution
I want to experience more loot competition between opposing group of players
7) There will be some many way to be toxic outside of the corruption system.
I am just afraid of the impact on the enjoyment of the players
I don't like mass pvp being 1 blob against another where everyone drops aoes and it's over in seconds. In my experience, collision forces large groups to spread out creating a situation where a massive battle becomes a collection of smaller ones that are not over in an instant. I prefer this because it actually allows me to participate and fight others, especially as person who prefers melee dps.
In this particular case, SS is willing to take his time, and already has it fully funded to finish. As we've already seen, the team is more than willing to test out combat mechanics by having outsiders test their alphas, and they have specifically addressed input and feedback, from the fans/players-to-be.
I'd be MORE worried if this *wasn't* an indy-game, because then it's mechanics and content would be fitted for mass-profit, FOMO, and purposeful game-addiction - versus creating something that players want and like and can play for many years!
I don't understand your first paragraph.
Who is talking about Jeff Bard and the project lead position?
I think he's suggesting that you have some faith in the experience of the game designers. As he said, it's not being made by a big publisher who will want to rush production to meet deadlines. It's being made by a group of people that want to make the best game they can in a fully-funded environment. That's a win, in my book.
I was in an hype bubble
And I got out of it
I have faith in the designers team.
So I want to be more involved and give more my feedback
Yeah, that's great. Maybe buy into Alpha-2, as that's probably the best way of having an impact.
As far as stacking players is concerned, the current intent is for AOE's to hit an unlimited number of players. If this happens, players will be spreading far apart or AOE everything will dominate.
As far as looting goes, we are fighting over resources. Not sharing or giving resources to all participants. This is an open world PvP over PvE resources game.
I think you’re going into this with the right mindset. You’re not prematurely declaring that the game is a failure because of pre-alpha footage that is far from a finished product, but you’re also reserving your faith that the game is going to be a hit until you see something more polished. That’s the sane and reasonable approach.
If you want to have a good loaf of bread, and the ingredients sound delicious and the chef is talented, you shouldn’t call it inedible because it hasn’t been cooked yet, but you also can’t know that it won’t be burnt or dried out until they take it out of the oven.
I’m clearly putting my faith in the game; I bought a large Kickstarter package and I’ve bought plenty of cosmetics on top of that. I’m literally invested in the game. And even I acknowledge that something might go wrong... They may have to cut or indefinitely delay a critical feature, some system may not be as successful or fun in practice as it appears in theory, there might be technical problems at launch (even fatal ones). Anything can happen.
What I like about my post is that I receive different point of views from differents players
Having a discussion will make the iteration of the creation of the game better
I mean... either you like what you see or you don't. There's no problem in listening to other peoples' opinions (I do it all the time) but, what is the overall ask here? I think you're asking should you invest buy buying a package? Right?
I've spent $615 on the game and tested in alpha 1; all I can say is, I would invest another 615 in a heart beat.
I've been gaming my whole life, played mmo's exclusively since 2001. This is worth the investment.
Also, checkout Paradox Gaming on YouTube, he does a superb job of giving you an overview of all aspects of the game from all information released to date.
It might be best to hold back our judgement until we get hands on with additional spells and classes.
Me?
No I will invest in the game.
Yes and no
Yes, It is better to give comment when we actually test
No. A constructive feedback is always interesting imo.
I think that player collision is actually a good thing for raiding and specifically the braindead mentality that seems to dominate the mentality of many raiders.
"Go in ranged group, hit target. Group move, I move then hit target." Rinse and repeat.
People will still be able to stack, but now they will maybe also learn propper spacing and individual thought.
I and many other people also realize that tight spaces light stairways or entrances will be a pain, but that was already adressed by Steven and we will be able to push through/past other players.
I too played GW2 for quiet some time, 3 years on and off, competetive raiding in the last expansion for a year.
And I have to say that I will not miss their quiet small array of skills. You normally had like 15 skills (10 weaponskills, because you always weapon swap for max class performance, and 5 additional support skills).
It is true that you had a big "choice" as a warrior but lets be real, a warrior in GW2 is a banner slave or a condi burn build.
This is normal, every game has a meta that most if not all players seem to follow. Humans thrive on the ability to streamline things for us. We like to make things easier, and the easiest thing in a game is to follow the crowd.
No one ever played Warrior tank, or the onehanded sword for mobility.
GW2 had like 5 different play stiles:
-Power DPS
-Condi DPS
-Survivability (Mesmer tanks or Necron leach tanks)
-Healers/Barriers (Druid and Necro)
-Buff Slave
You didnt "change your playstile with your weapon". You changed your weapon to fit your playstile. Playstiles were mainly dependant on your gear and stat choices. Shure you can push through and play something like my OG Melee tank support Guardian, but that was only achievable because my guild let me.
But let me return to the topic at hand.
Your points were:
1. You cant change your secondary outside of nodes.
2. less organic feeling/it is harder to visually identify with your role.
3. skills should be related to your weapon.
4. Mage and Cleric skills had nothing to do with their weapon.
Okay those are valid points, but think about this:
1. It makes more sense to have to prepare and do a ton of stuff to suddenly turn from a Mage/Cleric into a Mage/Rogue. Think about that.
2. That would be hard either way because you can use ANY armor with ANY class. A plate wearing, two handed sword wielding giant of a man could end up being a rogue. THATS WHATS SO EXCITING FOR ME!
3/4. Why should magic abilities be related to your weapons. They come from yourself not a crystal ontop of your staff!
You do have more main skills then you ever had weapon skills in GW2. I know you cant suddenly switch from a Two handed hammer to a longbow in the blink of an eye anymore, but you can still equip melee weapons and ranged weapons at the same time.
Which is also something that was always funny to me. I played a Condi Ranger with Shortbow for some time. Do you know what I had to do? I had to GET TWO SHORTBOWS. Spam all abilities on one, then switch to the other and spam all of HIS abilities, repeat.
NO ONE. AND I SAY NO ONE EVER INTERACTED WITH ONE ANOTHER CONCERNING THE FIELD MECHANIC EXCEPT SAYING. "Field down".
Its just something thats there so everyone thats ranged (Yes, only ranged classes because melee didnt really get anything from it) got more damage on their ranged attacks.
Yes, there are indeed the fire fields etc who give a buff. BUT THOSE ARE UP EITHER WAY! Why you may ask? Because there are people whose soly reason for existence it is to keep those buffs up all the time. Warriors for one. Mesmer tanks do it passively while doing their standard tank rptation if they are good.
Please keep in mind something:
Fireball does good damage. Mages get punished for bad positioning, and should have abilities that root them in place when they cast them as long as they have enough abilities that are castable during movement.
Ashes is not a game, where you run around to dodge 10.000 different ground zones.
Its a game of strategic placement and risk-taking.
There are also Weapon Skills. Skills that every class can learn, who give you special things for your weapons.
Players are also rather interdependent on one another. Not every class will get healing abilities that will keep them alive or heal them to full like in GW2.
I have to repeat, that I am trying not to come across as a giant asshole, who is just saying these things to sh*t on GW2. This is just my opinion as someone who played GW2 estensively since its Beta.