Feelings from an outside observer

Hello everyone,

I started this post on the last day of 2020.
I couldn't sleep last night.

I just watched a video on Youtube from someone giving his impressions on the last skills videos (mage + cleric)
and the level 10 boss.
He was reserve and negatively cautious. A sentence struck me : Intrepid studio is an indy studio.
Before I was ordinary optimistist towards the project, but as a resul of the video,
I realize that, even if I feel that Steven has a strong/clear/well thought vision for his game,
I am afraid that certain aspects will come out as "not as good" as desired.

Disclaimer: I don't have access to the alpha.
I just watched a lot of videos about the game.
I am certain I will make errors in my assumptions.
I couldn't check every points.

I just wanted, by this post, express some ideas/reflections/worries I had.
It is difficult to assess systems when you don't see the whole picture. And you can not test them.

My intentions are to fund the project, to test the alpha 2 and help/ give my feedback in my best of abilities.
But in the meanwhile, I couldn't wait that long to express myself.

A few words about my MMO gaming background:
I started by playing Rappelz, then play Warhammer Online and Guilds Wars 2.

By using Guild Wars 2 as an example, I would like to address differents thematics on combat:

1) Players collisions
2) Players skills
3) Swap weapon
4) Players interdependency
5) Mobility (melee / range)

1) Players collisions = If players can go through each other / Their bodies block the movement of someone else.

Personnaly, I would like no collision.
In the Pve World, it will remove potentials griefing. People will block entry way.

In mass pvp, it will make the combat more fluid. Especially with a lot of people.

I remember in Warhammer Online, it was not the case. As soon as you had to go stairs or go through a door, it was really difficult.

In the following videos, you can see fighters moving on the battlefield.
Yes, you can stack and have a zerg mentality. But if you are fighting in a raid, it is normal to act as a zerg.

So the ability to stack (no player collision) gave a great feeling of mobility and unity with your group.

I prefer that my movements are hindered by an ability of a player not just by their body.

Guild Wars 2 WvW: https://youtu.be/nJkLz6n1ta8
Warhammer RvR : https://youtu.be/6y7lrjp0nL0?t=71

2) Players skills = Where are skills coming from/related to?

This part is really difficult to assess (for the reasons stated in my introduction).

So I will take Guild Wars 2 as an example to explain why I like their system.

It has 10 skills.
The first 5 are based on the weapons you used.

Taking a different weapon change completely your skills/way of playing.

So visually, you do do something else.

I understand that with your class systems (mix of 2 archetypes), you also want to have a large variety of builds.

But I have the feeling
# that you can not change immediately your playstyle. You have to go back to a node, to pay a respecialisation fee.
# that it will be less organic.
My weapons dictates how I will play. Visually, my oponnents can indentify immediately how I will play / what I will do.
# that visually, my skills are related to my weapons. It makes more sense.

So when I saw the preview for the skills of the cleric and the mage.
All the showcases were without weapons. It brakes the immersion. Is the weapon just a skin / a "stat giver" ?

I have the feeling that the class will lock your skills for too long.
Yes the augments and the second archetype will bring diversity.

It brings diversity but it still stay the same skill.

Lets take again the "charge" skills from the fighter.

An augment can increase the speed or the damage or the range...
The second archtype can make it a blink,...

But you are still doing the same thing.

To summarise, I have the feeling that you will be able to specialise but you are still doing the same thing.
It is a strange feeling : Be different but be the same

At this point, I just remind everyone about my disclaimer.

Let me finish this subject by giving an example with Guilds Wars 2.

I played the warrior. Here are differents roles I could play with him, by changing my weapons, I change my skills.

Sword : I can jump forward and move faster.
Long sword : dps
Hammer : crowd control
Shield : defense
Horn - banners : buff
Shouts : healing
Bow : distance dps

I hope that this example shows the versatibility of the character and how his skills take organically their origins from / visually linked to his weapons.

3) Swap weapons

I really like this aspect. As the skills cooldowns are not shared, it brings an extra layer on my build decision.
So I can decide how I will do my rotation of skills.

PS : having a basic attack / the "Q" attack as a "filler" is underwhelming.

4) Players interdependency = How players from a same team interact with each other during a fight?

Normally, each participant has their role. Everyone executes their rotation in the best optimal way.

But let me explain how Guild Wars 2 added a layer by making the players interdependant.

The field/finisher mechanic:

Someone creates field - the others apply a finisher.

Let's give some example:

Someone put a water field - the other do some explosions = everyone is healed.
Someone put a fire field - the other do some explosions = everyone get a buff a might.
etc...

By playing together, by interacting with a skill of another player, it creates cohesion.
What can we do together to be stronger?

It improves the group coordination.

5) Mobility

I remember some discussions on the balance between melee / range.
My feeling is that range dps are too much immobile when casting a skill. (Healers too)
Staying immobile to just cast 1 fireball seems too punitive.

The risk is too great.

Someone immobile is like a sitting duck and will be an easy target.

Immobility doesnt match the philosophy of an hybrid action combat.

To summarise my combat thoughts, I would like a combat :

with mobility (no player collision, less immobility when casting)
with skills based on the weapon (for more versatibility and more visualy linked)
with more interdependency between players in a group (we can react to skills of someone else, so we get stronger together)

Here are other feedback/food for toughts:

6) Loot = who receive a loot?

I have the feeling that some people will be discourage to participate at certain content.

If I understand correctly the group who do the most damage, receive the loot. (the treshold depends on the tag of the mob)
I anticipate loot stealing.

I fear that it will create a zerg mentality in pve.
If you want to receive something, you have to be 40 players.

If you are a solo player and you encounter an event where a group is already playing, where is my motivation to participate if I will not receive any loot?

You can have the same reasoning with a group against a raid...

I would like that everyone receive a loot following rules of different tiers:

60% of dps - 40% of dps with tag = receive the best loot from table
20-50% = medium loot
less 20% = small loot

The % of dps and value of the loot need to be refined but I prefer this philosophy.

PS - Disclaimer : I am not sure if this loot philosophy is just for World bosses or also for normal pve creatures in the world.

The question is : Are we in competition for everything in the game?
Should we help someone else?
Do we have to group immediately to be fair and receive a loot?

7) Do you think your game will become toxic?
Do you embrass it?

8) I hope that we will be able to test the game also at max level / max skills / gears.
Even at different level brackets.

For example, I hope the community will be able to test the skills at level 10 then 20 - 30 - 40 - 50.
For example in Castles sieges.

9) You mentioned several times that you are still searching for talents.
As a customer, it is difficult to assess the performance of a developper.
But I remember that I enjoyed the work of Isaiah Cartwright.
He worked for a long time at Arenanet (Guild Wars 2)
https://twitter.com/izzycartwright

To finish, let me state again that this post is my initial feelings from an outside observer.
I will fund the project and hope to give more in dept feedbacks from actual testing.

Thank you Steven and all your team for your passion and hard work you are putting into this game.

I want to wish everyone an Happy New Year.
I wish everyone will stay safe and get through this difficult period.

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Comments

daveywavey

This website might help to ease your worries about most of your points.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki

Enjoy!

Rikeri

daveywavey wrote: »

This website might help to ease your worries about most of your points.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki

Enjoy!

I didn't have the chance to check the wiki yet. (i will ;-) )

If you have time, don't hesitate to be more specific and give your feeling on specific issues with some link to the wiki :-)

daveywavey

A few to get you started:

Player Collisions:
"Inertia and momentum physics will help prevent blocking doorways/access points. This is based on a character's direction and movement speed, and can be used to push people out of the way.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_movement

Weapon Skills:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Weapon_use_combo_system

Looting:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Looting

Rexo428

I watched the exact same video today and it kind of snapped me out of the fantasy I’ve been creating around this game and back into reality. I’m hoping that all of Stevan’s innovative game mechanics and systems pull off great but after I’ve seen what hype trains can do to consumer expectations (cyberpunk 2077) ill remain cautiously optimistic and wait to see how the studio implement these core game functionalities over time prior to committing to a backing package. In theory the game sounds amazing however if the game itself will shape up to meet these theories is the main question which we should begin to see manifest over the course of the following alpha tests with the main combat rework of which I am most eager to see

maouw

Welcome Rikeri!
I'll get straight into it.

1. Player Collision
AoC is against zerg fighting. Zerging bosses is done in BDO/L2 and it makes the boss boring. Player collision will help reduce zerging (along with other unannounced anti-zerg methods). There has been discussion already about people blocking doorways/stairs/etc. You will be able to push people out of the way. If it's still a problem, you can kill the person blocking the way.
You can read more about it here: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Collision

2. Player Skill
AoC has 3 Skill types: Active Class Skills, Passive Class Skills, and Weapon Skills
This is why the class skills in the previews don't match the weapons - all classes can use all weapons
So you can be a priest with Weapon Skills for a dagger, and priest abilities.
However, I agree with you - I feel like the classes have no identity if they can use all weapons - but maybe that freedom lets players create their own identities? We'll see.
You can read more about Skills here: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Skills

3. Swapping Weapons
You will not be able to swap weapons in the middle of combat. Only ranged characters have a seperate weapon for enemies that get into melee range.
Please bear in mind that the combat system is being redesigned - we should see more news about this in March 2021.
You can read more about Weapon Swapping here: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Weapon_swapping

4. Player Interdependency
At the moment the only interdependent skills that have been mentioned are for Sieges, where 8 people of the same archetype can gather to create a monumental effect. You can read more about it here: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Siege_summons
I would love to see more player intedependant skills - especially with an emergent design. However, I'm not sure the designers will have enough time to do this.

5. Mobility of Classes
Lots of people are concerned about being stuck in combat animations. You are not alone here. Combat is being redesigned, they will show us more in ~March 2021. However, they have said that only certain classes will be able to active dodge.

6. Loot Distribution
Loot rules will be decided by Party leaders. You can read more about it here: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Looting
I need to stress though: You cannot expect to get end-game gear in AoC as a solo player. You will need to make friends.

7. Managing Toxicity
AoC plans to adopt Lineage 2's (L2) Corruption System - it was very effective in L2, but Steven also has plans for other methods to manage bad behaviour. You are allowed to be toxic, but the community will punish you for being a toxic person. Steven also plans to hire active GMs to patrol the servers.
More info about the corruption system here: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_corruption

8. Testing environment
Alpha 1 testing is under a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) at the moment, so nobody will be able to tell you anything very helpful yet. Alpha 2 will be the beginning of the persistent test server (no date yet)

9. Talent Search
You can see the specific roles that they're interested in on Intrepid's Career page here: https://intrepidstudios.com/careers

Hope that helps

Rikeri

Rexo428 wrote: »

I watched the exact same video today and it kind of snapped me out of the fantasy I’ve been creating around this game and back into reality. I’m hoping that all of Stevan’s innovative game mechanics and systems pull off great but after I’ve seen what hype trains can do to consumer expectations (cyberpunk 2077) ill remain cautiously optimistic and wait to see how the studio implement these core game functionalities over time prior to committing to a backing package. In theory the game sounds amazing however if the game itself will shape up to meet these theories is the main question which we should begin to see manifest over the course of the following alpha tests with the main combat rework of which I am most eager to see

At least, to not stay in a hype / blind mode will make me more active, cautious and critical.

Rikeri

Thank you Maouw for the detailed answer.

I will wait to test before giving more impression.

But I will react to :

1)Player Collision
I had more a mass pvp view of the issue. To have more fluidity

6) Loot distribution
I want to experience more loot competition between opposing group of players

7) There will be some many way to be toxic outside of the corruption system.
I am just afraid of the impact on the enjoyment of the players

mcstackerson

In GW2, I don't have fun in pvp when in a massive group, i just do it because it's an easy win/rewards. Your video illustrates why. You can't even see what the targets are doing, you are just running with a group spaming abilities. yea it's fast but i don't think that meets the fantasy of two groups of combatants meeting on the battlefield.

I don't like mass pvp being 1 blob against another where everyone drops aoes and it's over in seconds. In my experience, collision forces large groups to spread out creating a situation where a massive battle becomes a collection of smaller ones that are not over in an instant. I prefer this because it actually allows me to participate and fight others, especially as person who prefers melee dps.

Tyranthraxus

You should really watch more AoC videos; SS isn't hiring noobs as his project leads. Jeff Bard has a TON of experience, having no doubt seen his share of bad games and game-mechanics, while working under Sony Online Entertainment. You know? The people who ruined the 1st Star Wars MMO? He's seen some of the *worst* decisions that a company can make in running a game; He's exactly who I'd want at my side, in designing an MMO - amongst others that are also on the AoC team!

In this particular case, SS is willing to take his time, and already has it fully funded to finish. As we've already seen, the team is more than willing to test out combat mechanics by having outsiders test their alphas, and they have specifically addressed input and feedback, from the fans/players-to-be.

I'd be MORE worried if this *wasn't* an indy-game, because then it's mechanics and content would be fitted for mass-profit, FOMO, and purposeful game-addiction - versus creating something that players want and like and can play for many years!

Rikeri

I am sorry Tyranthraxus

I don't understand your first paragraph.

Who is talking about Jeff Bard and the project lead position?

daveywavey

Rikeri wrote: »

I am sorry Tyranthraxus

I don't understand your first paragraph.

Who is talking about Jeff Bard and the project lead position?

I think he's suggesting that you have some faith in the experience of the game designers. As he said, it's not being made by a big publisher who will want to rush production to meet deadlines. It's being made by a group of people that want to make the best game they can in a fully-funded environment. That's a win, in my book.

Rikeri

From my side, I was explaining how I shifted my view

I was in an hype bubble
And I got out of it

I have faith in the designers team.

But the skills previews videos made me cautiously prudent

So I want to be more involved and give more my feedback

daveywavey

Rikeri wrote: »

From my side, I was explaining how I shifted my view

I was in an hype bubble
And I got out of it

I have faith in the designers team.
But the skills previews videos made me cautiously prudent

So I want to be more involved and give more my feedback

Yeah, that's great. Maybe buy into Alpha-2, as that's probably the best way of having an impact.

FuryBladeborne

@Rikeri
As far as stacking players is concerned, the current intent is for AOE's to hit an unlimited number of players. If this happens, players will be spreading far apart or AOE everything will dominate.

As far as looting goes, we are fighting over resources. Not sharing or giving resources to all participants. This is an open world PvP over PvE resources game.

Atama

Rikeri wrote: »

From my side, I was explaining how I shifted my view

I was in an hype bubble
And I got out of it

I have faith in the designers team.
But the skills previews videos made me cautiously prudent

So I want to be more involved and give more my feedback

I think you’re going into this with the right mindset. You’re not prematurely declaring that the game is a failure because of pre-alpha footage that is far from a finished product, but you’re also reserving your faith that the game is going to be a hit until you see something more polished. That’s the sane and reasonable approach.

If you want to have a good loaf of bread, and the ingredients sound delicious and the chef is talented, you shouldn’t call it inedible because it hasn’t been cooked yet, but you also can’t know that it won’t be burnt or dried out until they take it out of the oven.

I’m clearly putting my faith in the game; I bought a large Kickstarter package and I’ve bought plenty of cosmetics on top of that. I’m literally invested in the game. And even I acknowledge that something might go wrong... They may have to cut or indefinitely delay a critical feature, some system may not be as successful or fun in practice as it appears in theory, there might be technical problems at launch (even fatal ones). Anything can happen.

Rikeri

Thank you Atama for you message

What I like about my post is that I receive different point of views from differents players

Having a discussion will make the iteration of the creation of the game better

I hope what the studio will not be afraid to test different version with his community

daveywavey

Atama wrote: »

And even I acknowledge that something might go wrong... They may have to cut or indefinitely delay a critical feature, some system may not be as successful or fun in practice as it appears in theory, there might be technical problems at launch (even fatal ones). Anything can happen.

Powurshot

Is it me or does this seem like over analyzing a game that is still in alpha?

I mean... either you like what you see or you don't. There's no problem in listening to other peoples' opinions (I do it all the time) but, what is the overall ask here? I think you're asking should you invest buy buying a package? Right?

I've spent $615 on the game and tested in alpha 1; all I can say is, I would invest another 615 in a heart beat.

I've been gaming my whole life, played mmo's exclusively since 2001. This is worth the investment.

Also, checkout Paradox Gaming on YouTube, he does a superb job of giving you an overview of all aspects of the game from all information released to date.

Hartwell

I kind of want to see where things go with the ideas that they have. The only thing I don't like is what they've stated about weapon swapping, which was that if you take damage that it triggers a cooldown on swapping. At the same time I think that there could be mechanics that make these things interesting. Like there are classes that can bypass player collision. You can teleport through other players. One of the descriptions of the fighter class is that you can charge through enemy lines.

It might be best to hold back our judgement until we get hands on with additional spells and classes.

Rikeri

powurshot wrote: »

I think you're asking should you invest buy buying a package? Right?

Me?
No I will invest in the game.

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