Animations and Abilities

The animations we have seen so far seem really clunky and long. I know fighting is meant to take a long time and to be methodical but I think combat fails to account for how good the reflexes of an average player is. I think decreasing the length of animations and reducing the input delay inbetween abilities would significantly improve the feel combat. Allowing more movement during abilities would also help.

However I haven't played the alpha. What do you guys think? I know alot of people want to see combat to shift more towards wow and I can see the appeal but I think in general the dynamics and flow of combat looks really awkward and clunky. It's the same issue New World had.
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That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.

Comments

  • Animations are still in the works, we should wait for beta to complain about them^^
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  • MarcetMarcet Member
    I mostly like the combat, but yeah, the triple spin frontflip slow-mo jump animation for every standard fireball is a little bit to much
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited January 4
    However I haven't played the alpha. What do you guys think? I know alot of people want to see combat to shift more towards wow and I can see the appeal but I think in general the dynamics and flow of combat looks really awkward and clunky. It's the same issue New World had.
    People who have played the Alpha (like me) can’t tell you what we think because we all signed a non-disclosure agreement.

    But the developers have told us that the animations shown so far (to the public) have not been tuned much at all and they know they are over-the-top. They will be trimmed down immensely, at least in terms of flashiness. I’m not sure if they will be shortened, that is more of a gameplay issue rather than an aesthetic one, and it will depend on player feedback. My guess is that some animations will be longer than others for balance purposes; maybe to balance how impactful they are, they will give someone the time to dodge or interrupt, or maybe being frozen in place is the trade off itself. Others will probably be quick ones you can spam. But overall the flashy and clunky nature of the animations will be toned down.
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  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member
    edited January 4
    Damokles wrote: »
    Animations are still in the works, we should wait for beta to complain about them^^

    ^This.^

    There sure have been a lot of forums threads/comments about this topic since the debut of the Combat Footage video in October.

    Steven keeps stressing that animations are definitely not final ... but it somehow still gets missed by a handful of forum-goers.
  • Damokles wrote: »
    Animations are still in the works, we should wait for beta to complain about them^^

    ohh, I was under the impression that they were pretty locked in, in terms of length and art style. I know they were going to reduce the lighting and special effects. My point is more directed towards the flow but if it is still in development I will hold my comments until we get a later draft.
    Marcet wrote: »
    I mostly like the combat, but yeah, the triple spin frontflip slow-mo jump animation for every standard fireball is a little bit to much

    Exactly, like how much time do I need in order to dodge or counter a skill? Also how does this translate to a fight. If a typical time to kill for a one on one is 30 seconds and each ability can take upwards of 3 seconds that's a ten ability fight. Which to me seems really slow but like I said to Damokles if it's still in development I will hold my comments until a later draft.
    Atama wrote: »
    However I haven't played the alpha. What do you guys think? I know alot of people want to see combat to shift more towards wow and I can see the appeal but I think in general the dynamics and flow of combat looks really awkward and clunky. It's the same issue New World had.
    People who have played the Alpha (like me) can’t tell you what we think because we all signed a non-disclosure agreement.

    But the developers have told us that the animations shown so far (to the public) have not been tuned much at all and they know they are over-the-top. They will be trimmed down immensely, at least in terms of flashiness. I’m not sure if they will be shortened, that is more of a gameplay issue rather than an aesthetic one, and it will depend on player feedback. My guess is that some animations will be longer than others for balance purposes; maybe to balance how impactful they are, they will give someone the time to dodge or interrupt, or maybe being frozen in place is the trade off itself. Others will probably be quick ones you can spam. But overall the flashy and clunky nature of the animations will be toned down.

    But how much time do I need to react to a skill? I come from ESO and I get less than a second to react to most. I know we won't be anywheres near the speed of ESO but if I can take my hands off the keyboard for three seconds everytime I cast a skill am I really playing a game? I think the input delay at the end is the really awkward part. I wouldn't mind the length of the cast if there wasn't a delay at the end. It looks as if there is almost a full second of standing there without being able to do anything.
    Damokles wrote: »
    Animations are still in the works, we should wait for beta to complain about them^^

    ^This.^

    There sure have been a lot of forums threads/comments about this topic since the debut of the Combat Footage video in October.

    Steven keeps stressing that animations are definitely not final ... but it somehow still gets missed by a handful of forum-goers.

    Been out of the loop for a month but will wait. I also know Stephen has said on multiple occasions that he wants any and all feedback. I just happened to get around to watching the Mage Combat Trailer the other day and wanted to offer some feedback.
    ZxbhjES.gif

    That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds
    But how much time do I need to react to a skill? I come from ESO and I get less than a second to react to most. I know we won't be anywheres near the speed of ESO but if I can take my hands off the keyboard for three seconds everytime I cast a skill am I really playing a game? I think the input delay at the end is the really awkward part. I wouldn't mind the length of the cast if there wasn't a delay at the end. It looks as if there is almost a full second of standing there without being able to do anything.

    I played ESO also (I was even a beta tester) and one big difference is that everyone can dodge in that game. I believe dodging will only be available to certain classes in AoC. So not everyone can react the same way.
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  • Atama wrote: »
    But how much time do I need to react to a skill? I come from ESO and I get less than a second to react to most. I know we won't be anywheres near the speed of ESO but if I can take my hands off the keyboard for three seconds everytime I cast a skill am I really playing a game? I think the input delay at the end is the really awkward part. I wouldn't mind the length of the cast if there wasn't a delay at the end. It looks as if there is almost a full second of standing there without being able to do anything.

    I played ESO also (I was even a beta tester) and one big difference is that everyone can dodge in that game. I believe dodging will only be available to certain classes in AoC. So not everyone can react the same way.

    Yea, that is fair and I have already accepted that Ashes will be vastly different. ESO is it's own unique gem. I just want to feel engaged and to feel like I need to react. When I look at what I have seen as far as combat goes in ashes it looks really clunky and punishing. Its really easy to tell what class/role the enemy is. It is really easy to probably figure out what they will try to do. It looks overly defensive.
    ZxbhjES.gif

    That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds
    We also need to remember that the skills we are seeing atm are just level 1 to 10 and they will be slow to cast and activate. Once you level up get some augments more weapon skills and just more class skills in general there should be a huge shake up with how these early skills operate.

    Having said that they are just a work in progress and will be refined and iterated on many times. It is up to us the community to provide the feed back needed to get combat over all in a good place.

    But we also need to remember that no matter how combat ends up you will never make everyone happy. Some will love it some will hate it there is no pleasing everyone.
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    Close your eyes spread your arms and always trust your cape.
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds
    IS announced they had created a combat team 1-2 months ago and forum conversations were that we are expecting to see some results around April-March.
  • George BlackGeorge Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    I am also concerned.
    The sooner we get to see the combat revamp, the sooner can the community give feedback, and the sooner can the developers work on any necessary changes.
  • ariatrasariatras Member, Pioneer
    edited January 5
    Damokles wrote: »
    Animations are still in the works, we should wait for beta to complain about them^^

    Actually, I'd think they want feedback as early as possible. Are we seeing the final animations? Of course not. Does it help for them to know which direction to take them in? Absolutely!
    Atama wrote: »
    But how much time do I need to react to a skill? I come from ESO and I get less than a second to react to most. I know we won't be anywheres near the speed of ESO but if I can take my hands off the keyboard for three seconds everytime I cast a skill am I really playing a game? I think the input delay at the end is the really awkward part. I wouldn't mind the length of the cast if there wasn't a delay at the end. It looks as if there is almost a full second of standing there without being able to do anything.

    I played ESO also (I was even a beta tester) and one big difference is that everyone can dodge in that game. I believe dodging will only be available to certain classes in AoC. So not everyone can react the same way.

    And here is a comment sort of proving my point. During beta, we brought to light issues, particularly with the party system, and with the speed at which one could get a mount (unless you forked over another 20 bucks)

    Alas, they fixed them, but not after the game initially failed miserably. It took them a while to get over that. Most games do not. Now, it's a pretty decent mmo. Still not really my jam. But it's a whole lot better.
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  • At the start of nearly every video they've released containing in-game footage, SS has made a point of emphasizing that the footage we're seeing is very, very alpha.

    Expect further refinement, as others are stating, in this thread; Don't go off of what we're seeing so far as anywhere near final.
  • I agree with the two main views I am seeing right now. It definitely is important to remember that it is still early but like @ariatras said now is the time to provide feedback. The earlier they get the base systems set and ready to go the earlier they can begin to work on polish.

    I would also like to say I like a lot of what I have seen. The early boss fight looked sick. Alot of the mechanics and the ccs we have seen look really lit. I just think it looked like Stephen had a lot of time where he was waiting for something to finish before he could do something else. Maybe if the numbers were balanced a little more, the fireball did more damage it would feel better but even then combat looks really sluggish and clunky.
    ZxbhjES.gif

    That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds
    Well the mages fireball animation will be changing, no more flying into the air and that was due to feedback from the community. The animation will be used on another spell where it might be more appropriate.
    3KAqRIf.png
    Close your eyes spread your arms and always trust your cape.
  • mushinmushin Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited January 13
    What I'm not getting is what happened to all those animations that were in the trailers 3 or 4 years ago, those trailers were part of the reason why I became excited and became a backer. That female mage going through the dungeon looked great. The game looks really different from what we're in those trailers.
  • maouwmaouw Member
    mushin wrote: »
    What I'm not getting is what happened to all those animations that were in the trailers 3 or 4 years ago, those trailers were part of the reason why I became excited and became a backer. That female mage going through the dungeon looked great. The game looks really different from what we're in those trailers.

    After Ashes Apocalypse testing, they weren't happy with a core part of the system and decided to redesign from the ground up. Which means they're aiming for something better than before!
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • ariatrasariatras Member, Pioneer
    maouw wrote: »
    mushin wrote: »
    What I'm not getting is what happened to all those animations that were in the trailers 3 or 4 years ago, those trailers were part of the reason why I became excited and became a backer. That female mage going through the dungeon looked great. The game looks really different from what we're in those trailers.

    After Ashes Apocalypse testing, they weren't happy with a core part of the system and decided to redesign from the ground up. Which means they're aiming for something better than before!

    To be fair. That's quite subjective.
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  • LXIXLXIX Member
    I agree with the two main views I am seeing right now. It definitely is important to remember that it is still early but like @ariatras said now is the time to provide feedback. The earlier they get the base systems set and ready to go the earlier they can begin to work on polish.

    I would also like to say I like a lot of what I have seen. The early boss fight looked sick. Alot of the mechanics and the ccs we have seen look really lit. I just think it looked like Stephen had a lot of time where he was waiting for something to finish before he could do something else. Maybe if the numbers were balanced a little more, the fireball did more damage it would feel better but even then combat looks really sluggish and clunky.

    I agree, right now the combat feels very static and not fun at all. I hope they change that and bring in more fluid animations and faster skill attacks but we will have to wait and see what happens.
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  • As long as the ability to "Cancel" animations while still getting an attack off DOESNT end up being a thing in game, I think the combat system will be rather well done.
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  • mushin wrote: »
    What I'm not getting is what happened to all those animations that were in the trailers 3 or 4 years ago, those trailers were part of the reason why I became excited and became a backer. That female mage going through the dungeon looked great. The game looks really different from what we're in those trailers.

    I think they completely revamped a lot of the core systems since then. I highly doubt the game will look or play anything like that. That was also pretty single player esq looking but who knows each class is supposed to have a utility skill. Perhaps mages will be able to levitate.
    maouw wrote: »
    mushin wrote: »
    What I'm not getting is what happened to all those animations that were in the trailers 3 or 4 years ago, those trailers were part of the reason why I became excited and became a backer. That female mage going through the dungeon looked great. The game looks really different from what we're in those trailers.

    After Ashes Apocalypse testing, they weren't happy with a core part of the system and decided to redesign from the ground up. Which means they're aiming for something better than before!

    Which is a shame because the combat was pretty fun. Obviously lacked a few elements but I really liked the pace and realistic we won't get that pace in the MMO but I can dream right? XD
    LXIX wrote: »
    I agree with the two main views I am seeing right now. It definitely is important to remember that it is still early but like @ariatras said now is the time to provide feedback. The earlier they get the base systems set and ready to go the earlier they can begin to work on polish.

    I would also like to say I like a lot of what I have seen. The early boss fight looked sick. Alot of the mechanics and the ccs we have seen look really lit. I just think it looked like Stephen had a lot of time where he was waiting for something to finish before he could do something else. Maybe if the numbers were balanced a little more, the fireball did more damage it would feel better but even then combat looks really sluggish and clunky.

    I agree, right now the combat feels very static and not fun at all. I hope they change that and bring in more fluid animations and faster skill attacks but we will have to wait and see what happens. I don't want to feel like we are watching a cut scene every time I try to use an ability.
    Agreed. We don't nessicarily need animation canceling. I personally like it but combat is way too slow and way too easy to react to. There needs to be some mechanical skill to the game.
    Maviodas wrote: »
    As long as the ability to "Cancel" animations while still getting an attack off DOESNT end up being a thing in game, I think the combat system will be rather well done.

    I doubt we will get animation canceling but I will say this the longer the general animation the more effective it will become if it can happen.

    ZxbhjES.gif

    That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds
    Even with the changes they are bringing in they will only be a stepping stone along the way to the eventual combat system. I just hope that they are a positive step that we can all provide our feedback on and help combat evolve.
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    Close your eyes spread your arms and always trust your cape.
  • Cold 0ne FTBCold 0ne FTB Member
    edited January 15
    Varkun wrote: »
    Even with the changes they are bringing in they will only be a stepping stone along the way to the eventual combat system. I just hope that they are a positive step that we can all provide our feedback on and help combat evolve.

    Agreed and I hope I am not sounding too negative. I absolutely loved that boss fight they showed us the other day. I know it's been overstated but combat will make and break this game and I think everybody's opinion on this subject is important. I just hope we aren't giving them too many conflicting opinions.

    Ultimately this game is Stephen's and I think he has done an incredible job so far of walking the tight rope of listening to feedback and staying true to his vision. I think I can speak for many of us when I say that I trust his vision. I just hope we can see a version of combat that has a pace somewhere in-between Apocalypse and what we see now.
    ZxbhjES.gif

    That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
  • Hiya! As a few folks above have noted, some of your early feedback on skills you're seeing (such as those in the Mage video) have led to direct changes from our team. For example, here's a quote from Steven on Discord from shortly before the holiday break:
    Steven: I've asked the anim team to replace the jump and twirl anim on fireball to a grounded anim

    With our upcoming combat iterations, I would definitely expect to see more changes leading up to our future test phases :smiley: combat in general will certainly be something we ask for your thoughts on repeatedly as we continue to iterate!
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  • Hiya! As a few folks above have noted, some of your early feedback on skills you're seeing (such as those in the Mage video) have led to direct changes from our team. For example, here's a quote from Steven on Discord from shortly before the holiday break:
    Steven: I've asked the anim team to replace the jump and twirl anim on fireball to a grounded anim

    With our upcoming combat iterations, I would definitely expect to see more changes leading up to our future test phases :smiley: combat in general will certainly be something we ask for your thoughts on repeatedly as we continue to iterate!

    Sounds good! I am excited to see what you guys had in store. NGL that boss fight blew my mind. I have never seen CC in an MMO work on such a large scale.
    ZxbhjES.gif

    That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
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