People with no stake in the company other than a desire to play the game at some point should really not be telling the studio who to hire or not.
You're clearly not someone who can value talent regardless of origin.
And seeing as you're just a "Member" like many of us, you haven't even invested in the game monetarily, so even less of voice in the in-runnings of the business. Let them develop the game how and with whom they want. If you don't like the result, then so be it.
Insert Biden gif saying "Will you just shut up man?"
If you asked the class designers if they were "proud" of the classes they are working on and they said yes I would immediately cancel my sub with WoW
Unless they were drunk and somewhere very private, with no one pointing a camera near them, I'd expect anyone to say they were.
WoW is a fairly public entity, if a designer says they are not proud of their work on it, they are likely out of a job.
While you may think that is a good thing for them to do, unless you are going to pay their mortgage and feed their family, that isn't a fair thing to even discuss.
See, the thing people forget when talking about firing developers or what they expect from developers of games, is that those developers are earning money to live - it isn't just some hobby they do in their spare time. As with most people, they will pull the company line as much as is necessary to keep their job - and not publicly stating that you are not pround of your work is usually something you need to do to keep your job.
To clarify, I was never implying they were all bad, I was saying I wouldn't take the risk due to their track record and my personal experience on the business end of their work. You can go praise whoever you want over there at blizzard that's not my business and I don't care. I was just expressing my displeasure with what they have done and would, if given the choice, not hire from blizzard as we cannot know who is at fault for the issues due to lack of insider knowledge.
Would you eat from a bushel of apples if I told you one of them was poisoned? That's the logic I am using here for my opinion. I don't care if you think that's wrong, That is how World of Warcraft gameplay design has molded my opinion over these past years.
Edit: I would be willing to consider it if we were allowed a full look of what was going on and who did what. That's the only concession I can make.
People with no stake in the company other than a desire to play the game at some point should really not be telling the studio who to hire or not.
You're clearly not someone who can value talent regardless of origin.
And seeing as you're just a "Member" like many of us, you haven't even invested in the game monetarily, so even less of voice in the in-runnings of the business. Let them develop the game how and with whom they want. If you don't like the result, then so be it.
Insert Biden gif saying "Will you just shut up man?"
To be fair, I'm a Braver and I've invested even more money into cosmetics on top of that, but I still feel that others' opinions are just as valid as mine. They might potentially drop more money into the game than I will in the long run if they enjoy it enough (not to mention I won't be paying a subscription). I don't fault anyone who waits for a real product before risking money.
If you asked the class designers if they were "proud" of the classes they are working on and they said yes I would immediately cancel my sub with WoW
Unless they were drunk and somewhere very private, with no one pointing a camera near them, I'd expect anyone to say they were.
WoW is a fairly public entity, if a designer says they are not proud of their work on it, they are likely out of a job.
While you may think that is a good thing for them to do, unless you are going to pay their mortgage and feed their family, that isn't a fair thing to even discuss.
See, the thing people forget when talking about firing developers or what they expect from developers of games, is that those developers are earning money to live - it isn't just some hobby they do in their spare time. As with most people, they will pull the company line as much as is necessary to keep their job - and not publicly stating that you are not pround of your work is usually something you need to do to keep your job.
To clarify, I was never implying they were all bad, I was saying I wouldn't take the risk due to their track record and my personal experience on the business end of their work. You can go praise whoever you want over there at blizzard that's not my business and I don't care. I was just expressing my displeasure with what they have done and would, if given the choice, not hire from blizzard as we cannot know who is at fault for the issues due to lack of insider knowledge.
Would you eat from a bushel of apples if I told you one of them was poisoned? That's the logic I am using here for my opinion. I don't care if you think that's wrong, That is how World of Warcraft gameplay design has molded my opinion over these past years.
Edit: I would be willing to consider it if we were allowed a full look of what was going on and who did what. That's the only concession I can make.
The way I see it, we know who is at fault.
The biggest problem with WoW is that the game is designed primarily to appease shareholders, not players.
Presumably, it has done that as there aren't a whole lot of complaints from that group of people right now -which means every developer at Blizzard has done their job well.
Take those same developers and put them.in a studio where the goal is to make players happy and there is no reason to assume they wont then do that job well.
If you asked the class designers if they were "proud" of the classes they are working on and they said yes I would immediately cancel my sub with WoW
Unless they were drunk and somewhere very private, with no one pointing a camera near them, I'd expect anyone to say they were.
WoW is a fairly public entity, if a designer says they are not proud of their work on it, they are likely out of a job.
While you may think that is a good thing for them to do, unless you are going to pay their mortgage and feed their family, that isn't a fair thing to even discuss.
See, the thing people forget when talking about firing developers or what they expect from developers of games, is that those developers are earning money to live - it isn't just some hobby they do in their spare time. As with most people, they will pull the company line as much as is necessary to keep their job - and not publicly stating that you are not pround of your work is usually something you need to do to keep your job.
To clarify, I was never implying they were all bad, I was saying I wouldn't take the risk due to their track record and my personal experience on the business end of their work. You can go praise whoever you want over there at blizzard that's not my business and I don't care. I was just expressing my displeasure with what they have done and would, if given the choice, not hire from blizzard as we cannot know who is at fault for the issues due to lack of insider knowledge.
Would you eat from a bushel of apples if I told you one of them was poisoned? That's the logic I am using here for my opinion. I don't care if you think that's wrong, That is how World of Warcraft gameplay design has molded my opinion over these past years.
Edit: I would be willing to consider it if we were allowed a full look of what was going on and who did what. That's the only concession I can make.
The way I see it, we know who is at fault.
The biggest problem with WoW is that the game is designed primarily to appease shareholders, not players.
Presumably, it has done that as there aren't a whole lot of complaints from that group of people right now -which means every developer at Blizzard has done their job well.
Take those same developers and put them.in a studio where the goal is to make players happy and there is no reason to assume they wont then do that job well.
I cant agree that its only the higher ups fault when i see a boomkin waddle into a fight and completely dominate with a fleshed out and smooth dps rotation, survival tools, and powerful covenant abilities that synergize perfectly with their class. That is just one example. I know it might not mean anything for people that do not play WoW but the game design is one of the biggest issues, especially in pvp, that I have with WoW and I cannot believe that all of the fault comes from the top end of things when there are clearly classes/specs that have the proper time and commitment put into them while many others are sitting there rotting when VERY simple hotfix changes could improve said rotting specs/classes.
Do you honestly believe there is a shareholder holding a gun to bobby goblick's head forcing the company to micro-manage their game developers not to hotfix broken issues? I feel the answer to this question is no. You might feel differently, but again that is my experience as someone who has played their game since its original release. I love WoW, but lately its gotten so horrible that I just cannot trust the developers unless you can come out with some solid proof that Bobby is stapling peoples hands to their butts if they dare try to fix game balance issues.
Do you honestly believe there is a shareholder holding a gun to bobby goblick's head forcing the company to micro-manage their game developers not to hotfix broken issues?
Not in a literal sense, no.
Do I believe that Bluzzard have a schedule they will stick to in regards to when things will get worked on, rather than leaving all developers to just do whatever they want? Well, obviously, yes.
Do I believe that players crying about class imbalance would alter that schedule? Good God no, no it wouldn't.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I commend Blizzard for being able to maintain such a large player base for so long.
But I also think no matter how many more bandages they wrap around this horse, whilst not dead, it really has had its run, and expecting it to continue to reign is an unrealistic expectation.
It`s old, it`s dated, and at a minimum time to be left to play in greener pastures. Put your whips down and allow entry of WoW 2.0. Be that literally WoW themselves, or Ashes or another contender.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited January 2021
At about 25:00:00 Chris get a question then long explanation on what is happening.
Some of you need to calm down and realize it is not 1 person doing everything. Some of these things have many people working on something trying to find the right balance of what to do or not do. None of it is cut and dry.
Have confidence in Steven and the team doing what is right for the project. I don't get the feeling any of them are going through the motions waiting for the project to tank. They will do what is right for the company and project over all.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
There are former Blizzard employes that would be pretty cool to hire lIKE THE ones that stepped away from WoW and made GW2 that tow sucessful MMO to their credit so no being a fomer WoW employee does not automatically disqualify but at the same time WoW is a game that literally killed itself and still doing a fine job of it really never played a game in which I have been actually disappointed by the devs.
Could talk all day about their class design mistakes and pvp mistakes not to mention their game design mistakes in genreal. Think the make great things haphazardly.
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VolgaireMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Most of the bad decisions are either made due to higher-ups wanting it or devs needing to do things that will appease the higher-ups, these people are business men not gamers, the devs are just the tool they use to create a new source of revenue, the devs need money to feed themselves so they wont go and argue every decision that isn't good for the players. I mean it is kind of obvious looking at how indie games tend to be more unique and original than a good amount of AAA titles.
There obviously is bad apples here and there but I'd say a good portion of these devs are competent and experienced people.
Its funny that we think its always the devs that are on fault and not us gamers.
To some extend the current state of Warcraft is because gamers wanted to be like that.
Players wanted faster leveling so they can play FOTM Classes for each raid.
Players wanted easier access to dungeons/raids cause they dont have all day for it.
Players wanted to have every tool on their arsenal and thus Class Homogenization happened.
Players didnt care much for communities.
Why is only Blizzards fault then?
Ye content is boring and time gated but the main problem of Warcraft is not that. Sure some Devs dont do their job right even for the content given but players played their role in all of that.
People with no stake in the company other than a desire to play the game at some point should really not be telling the studio who to hire or not.
You're clearly not someone who can value talent regardless of origin.
And seeing as you're just a "Member" like many of us, you haven't even invested in the game monetarily, so even less of voice in the in-runnings of the business. Let them develop the game how and with whom they want. If you don't like the result, then so be it.
Insert Biden gif saying "Will you just shut up man?"
but members are still customers, or potential customers. Do you really think the game can survive with the sub fee of the backers!
As far decisions being made by the higher ups I would have to agree the devs have no control over some of the decisions made at Blizzard. But since I been posting about class desingn and pvp Mistakes that really does not applly. The Devs At WoW have complete control over class design and pvp issues not a higher up decision. Maybe not the prune.
But since I am here is another one for you. Official Statement made by some team lead designer at WoW think it was Tom Chilton. Said something like When WoW was created it was not created for PvP game balance.
What that means is....when the game was created they put in the 3v3 bracket but had no idea it was going to turn into an Esport with guessing way over a million people doing 3v3 for rating competativlely. What this also means classes most likley created for fun and roleplaying value not 3v3 bracket. Just to give people an
example the Dungeouns and Dragons 20th level mage is not made for dueling or 3v3 or 5v5 as a matter a fact if mage is not careful they could kill entire party with just one spell. Basically be one shoting every one and other classes would do about the same just matter of who attacked first in PvP so classes are designed fo PvE.
But that is something you say on the first or second or third or year into the game not 8 or 9 years into a game with like 5 expansions under your belt after 3v3 bracket is actually an Esport.????
Because of the things that WoW desingers have said I have come to the conclusion that the class design team has a meeting lets say about hunter and hunter traps and think about possible changes then they take those ideas and present them to a pvp game balance team to see if its alright. Guessing it is like about 16 people involve. I have no Idea how a group of game design professionals sit down have two meetings ,at least, and none of them think something like this is really a bad idea.....
From the previous posst you can see how traps cool down was just to low for a while and had to be adjusted well at one point the devs at WoW were thinking about taking one of the traps off cooldown freezing trap off cool down(optional talent) plus you can have not one but two freezing traps out all the time. Kind of what Ashes is doing but pretty sure the Devs at Ashes of Creation are going to use charges like every other game.
My personlly expereince was this ......
I logged in saw the intended changes thinking There is no way this is going to make it live. But I would log in check the patch notes like every few days checking hoping to see if this guys were going to be incompetent enough to let it go live because if it did I would be winning every game.
Well what most likely happened is this they have a PTR Public Test Realm and saw that it was a terrible idea must of seen hunters owning. So this would be like me convincing the devs at Ashes of Creation get the ranger traps of cool down plus we could have 2 of them out all the time And all them would say yes to that. And later on in testing find out it was a terrible idea. Absurd.
Oh yeah your are not goiing to believe this one One WoW dev said that class changes are made unanimously.
that is not just one person. So when they are smart they are smart together and when they are not smart they are not smart together. Unreal,
Really I cannot in good conscience give the reccomendation to hire a WoW dev not that you need it. Talking about the ones that involved in class design and pvp game balance. As far as getting a WoW dev FIRED????
WoW devs do not need any help from me, I am so confident in ther icompentence they would just fire themselves. Or they would have to get some MMO IQ really fast.
Notice I have only been talking about one thing hunter traps. And Still have more to say about hunter traps.
One more huge blunder with hunter traps that they ended up reverted. Then there is Hunter focus or energy or mana.
Beleive me when I tell you I could post HUGE long post about how how WoW Devs Did not have a clue about Mana management. Surely they must of figured it out by now with the hundreds of post in their forums addressing the issue. If a WoW dev were to tell me that im being a troll that they are competent like lets say back when I played that game My Reply would be . Good to know!!! Fix your game....
Wandering mist made a very good post on Mana Management i thought it was largely unecesseary cause i think the Devs at Ashes of Creation are on top of something like that. But I must say.
I would Rather have Wandering mist in charge of Mana Management in Ashes of Creation then all WoW devs put togher. No contest. Nothing to discuss. This particular issue was broken for years players know about. Maybe it still is.
But all you have to do is ask around. Ask people like Asmond Gold and other content creators cause it just not me saying it. This is not a rant or nerd rage it is more like. I cannot believe these guys actaully did that or were thinking of doint that.
Someone said something about PvP game balance over time????? Just how many expansions does a game company need to get this stuff. WoW in a few years will be coming up on 20 years if they do not have pvp game balance by then...well just how decades does it take.
And After all I have type if someone were to ask me is WoW worth playing?. I would have to say Yes!!!!!!!! Unreal!!!!!! The dungeouns and raids are extremely good some if which have reached legendary status, I just so happen to be a PvPer and pvp game balance is not their area of expertise.
*********Just want to point out I made this post a while ago and look how it has aged. I was spot on. Look at Blizzard now. Shadowlands is a epic failure and Blizzard is in a lawsuit.*******
Sorry, no you were not spot on. Your post at best was well intended but at worst misguided and a suggestion of inexperience and ignorance about how roles and decisions work in a larger framework.
The result of Shadowlands has no bearing on your comments accuracy.
The lawsuit at Blizzard is unfortunate but again, not something that should hold much influence in the decision when hiring talent.
Quite frankly, if you have worked in enough varying business environments and scales and/or spent sufficient time as an employee or employer, then I would suggest your comments would be more guided and reflect an understanding that internal business cultures can change and cycle. And they can do that slowly over time or over night and be stable or all over the place. Your post suggests or what you have learned so far in the business environment is lacking.
Comments
Do it! Delete your Ashes Of Creation account while you're at it!
You're clearly not someone who can value talent regardless of origin.
And seeing as you're just a "Member" like many of us, you haven't even invested in the game monetarily, so even less of voice in the in-runnings of the business. Let them develop the game how and with whom they want. If you don't like the result, then so be it.
Insert Biden gif saying "Will you just shut up man?"
To clarify, I was never implying they were all bad, I was saying I wouldn't take the risk due to their track record and my personal experience on the business end of their work. You can go praise whoever you want over there at blizzard that's not my business and I don't care. I was just expressing my displeasure with what they have done and would, if given the choice, not hire from blizzard as we cannot know who is at fault for the issues due to lack of insider knowledge.
Would you eat from a bushel of apples if I told you one of them was poisoned? That's the logic I am using here for my opinion. I don't care if you think that's wrong, That is how World of Warcraft gameplay design has molded my opinion over these past years.
Edit: I would be willing to consider it if we were allowed a full look of what was going on and who did what. That's the only concession I can make.
To be fair, I'm a Braver and I've invested even more money into cosmetics on top of that, but I still feel that others' opinions are just as valid as mine. They might potentially drop more money into the game than I will in the long run if they enjoy it enough (not to mention I won't be paying a subscription). I don't fault anyone who waits for a real product before risking money.
The way I see it, we know who is at fault.
The biggest problem with WoW is that the game is designed primarily to appease shareholders, not players.
Presumably, it has done that as there aren't a whole lot of complaints from that group of people right now -which means every developer at Blizzard has done their job well.
Take those same developers and put them.in a studio where the goal is to make players happy and there is no reason to assume they wont then do that job well.
I cant agree that its only the higher ups fault when i see a boomkin waddle into a fight and completely dominate with a fleshed out and smooth dps rotation, survival tools, and powerful covenant abilities that synergize perfectly with their class. That is just one example. I know it might not mean anything for people that do not play WoW but the game design is one of the biggest issues, especially in pvp, that I have with WoW and I cannot believe that all of the fault comes from the top end of things when there are clearly classes/specs that have the proper time and commitment put into them while many others are sitting there rotting when VERY simple hotfix changes could improve said rotting specs/classes.
Do you honestly believe there is a shareholder holding a gun to bobby goblick's head forcing the company to micro-manage their game developers not to hotfix broken issues? I feel the answer to this question is no. You might feel differently, but again that is my experience as someone who has played their game since its original release. I love WoW, but lately its gotten so horrible that I just cannot trust the developers unless you can come out with some solid proof that Bobby is stapling peoples hands to their butts if they dare try to fix game balance issues.
Do I believe that Bluzzard have a schedule they will stick to in regards to when things will get worked on, rather than leaving all developers to just do whatever they want? Well, obviously, yes.
Do I believe that players crying about class imbalance would alter that schedule? Good God no, no it wouldn't.
But I also think no matter how many more bandages they wrap around this horse, whilst not dead, it really has had its run, and expecting it to continue to reign is an unrealistic expectation.
It`s old, it`s dated, and at a minimum time to be left to play in greener pastures. Put your whips down and allow entry of WoW 2.0. Be that literally WoW themselves, or Ashes or another contender.
also 18:35 he talks about how it works.
Some of you need to calm down and realize it is not 1 person doing everything. Some of these things have many people working on something trying to find the right balance of what to do or not do. None of it is cut and dry.
Have confidence in Steven and the team doing what is right for the project. I don't get the feeling any of them are going through the motions waiting for the project to tank. They will do what is right for the company and project over all.
Could talk all day about their class design mistakes and pvp mistakes not to mention their game design mistakes in genreal. Think the make great things haphazardly.
There obviously is bad apples here and there but I'd say a good portion of these devs are competent and experienced people.
To some extend the current state of Warcraft is because gamers wanted to be like that.
Players wanted faster leveling so they can play FOTM Classes for each raid.
Players wanted easier access to dungeons/raids cause they dont have all day for it.
Players wanted to have every tool on their arsenal and thus Class Homogenization happened.
Players didnt care much for communities.
Why is only Blizzards fault then?
Ye content is boring and time gated but the main problem of Warcraft is not that. Sure some Devs dont do their job right even for the content given but players played their role in all of that.
wauw, you are so cool... !
I guess we found the mindless Blizzard fanboy
but members are still customers, or potential customers. Do you really think the game can survive with the sub fee of the backers!
But since I am here is another one for you. Official Statement made by some team lead designer at WoW think it was Tom Chilton. Said something like When WoW was created it was not created for PvP game balance.
What that means is....when the game was created they put in the 3v3 bracket but had no idea it was going to turn into an Esport with guessing way over a million people doing 3v3 for rating competativlely. What this also means classes most likley created for fun and roleplaying value not 3v3 bracket. Just to give people an
example the Dungeouns and Dragons 20th level mage is not made for dueling or 3v3 or 5v5 as a matter a fact if mage is not careful they could kill entire party with just one spell. Basically be one shoting every one and other classes would do about the same just matter of who attacked first in PvP so classes are designed fo PvE.
But that is something you say on the first or second or third or year into the game not 8 or 9 years into a game with like 5 expansions under your belt after 3v3 bracket is actually an Esport.????
Because of the things that WoW desingers have said I have come to the conclusion that the class design team has a meeting lets say about hunter and hunter traps and think about possible changes then they take those ideas and present them to a pvp game balance team to see if its alright. Guessing it is like about 16 people involve. I have no Idea how a group of game design professionals sit down have two meetings ,at least, and none of them think something like this is really a bad idea.....
From the previous posst you can see how traps cool down was just to low for a while and had to be adjusted well at one point the devs at WoW were thinking about taking one of the traps off cooldown freezing trap off cool down(optional talent) plus you can have not one but two freezing traps out all the time. Kind of what Ashes is doing but pretty sure the Devs at Ashes of Creation are going to use charges like every other game.
My personlly expereince was this ......
I logged in saw the intended changes thinking There is no way this is going to make it live. But I would log in check the patch notes like every few days checking hoping to see if this guys were going to be incompetent enough to let it go live because if it did I would be winning every game.
Well what most likely happened is this they have a PTR Public Test Realm and saw that it was a terrible idea must of seen hunters owning. So this would be like me convincing the devs at Ashes of Creation get the ranger traps of cool down plus we could have 2 of them out all the time And all them would say yes to that. And later on in testing find out it was a terrible idea. Absurd.
Oh yeah your are not goiing to believe this one One WoW dev said that class changes are made unanimously.
that is not just one person. So when they are smart they are smart together and when they are not smart they are not smart together. Unreal,
Really I cannot in good conscience give the reccomendation to hire a WoW dev not that you need it. Talking about the ones that involved in class design and pvp game balance. As far as getting a WoW dev FIRED????
WoW devs do not need any help from me, I am so confident in ther icompentence they would just fire themselves. Or they would have to get some MMO IQ really fast.
Notice I have only been talking about one thing hunter traps. And Still have more to say about hunter traps.
One more huge blunder with hunter traps that they ended up reverted. Then there is Hunter focus or energy or mana.
Beleive me when I tell you I could post HUGE long post about how how WoW Devs Did not have a clue about Mana management. Surely they must of figured it out by now with the hundreds of post in their forums addressing the issue. If a WoW dev were to tell me that im being a troll that they are competent like lets say back when I played that game My Reply would be . Good to know!!! Fix your game....
Wandering mist made a very good post on Mana Management i thought it was largely unecesseary cause i think the Devs at Ashes of Creation are on top of something like that. But I must say.
I would Rather have Wandering mist in charge of Mana Management in Ashes of Creation then all WoW devs put togher. No contest. Nothing to discuss. This particular issue was broken for years players know about. Maybe it still is.
But all you have to do is ask around. Ask people like Asmond Gold and other content creators cause it just not me saying it. This is not a rant or nerd rage it is more like. I cannot believe these guys actaully did that or were thinking of doint that.
Someone said something about PvP game balance over time????? Just how many expansions does a game company need to get this stuff. WoW in a few years will be coming up on 20 years if they do not have pvp game balance by then...well just how decades does it take.
And After all I have type if someone were to ask me is WoW worth playing?. I would have to say Yes!!!!!!!!
Unreal!!!!!! The dungeouns and raids are extremely good some if which have reached legendary status, I just so happen to be a PvPer and pvp game balance is not their area of expertise.
Sorry, no you were not spot on. Your post at best was well intended but at worst misguided and a suggestion of inexperience and ignorance about how roles and decisions work in a larger framework.
The result of Shadowlands has no bearing on your comments accuracy.
The lawsuit at Blizzard is unfortunate but again, not something that should hold much influence in the decision when hiring talent.
Quite frankly, if you have worked in enough varying business environments and scales and/or spent sufficient time as an employee or employer, then I would suggest your comments would be more guided and reflect an understanding that internal business cultures can change and cycle. And they can do that slowly over time or over night and be stable or all over the place. Your post suggests or what you have learned so far in the business environment is lacking.