Ways of keeping lower-end content relevant

Hi everyone,

What do you think are the best ways to keep old content such as low level monsters/enemies, low level materials, low level dungeons etc. relevant so we don't wind up with a WoW situation where the next raid/dungeon/expansion makes the previous one obsolete and it's forgotten.

I can think of a few ways:
1. Tie lower tier gatherables to higher tier recipes - either by needing them to craft the recipe item or needing them to make higher tier craftables to use in said recipe
2. Enemies should have their unique place in the world and not drop the same items for their level range
Example:
Boar lvl 1-10 drops 'Pelt' and 'Tusk'
Wolf lvl 1-10 drops 'Pelt'
Goal:
Boar lvl 1-10 drops 'Boar skin' etc
Wolf lvl 1-10 drops 'Wolf pelt', 'Tooth', 'Claw' etc etc

Basically make them drop unique enough items and be relevant monsters for artisan professions like skinning, mining (if they are golems for example), herbalism or the like if they are like plants etc. And those items to be relevant in crafting.

3. For dungeons, raids and the like you could do the same - Have unique enough drops that keep the zones relevant in the other systems of the game whether it be special gatherables inside (ores, herbs, special trees, special tamable animals etc), enemy drops or just a mentoring program that lets higher level people help lowbies for an extra reward.

Maybe you could also have level synchronisation along with the mentoring mechanic.

What do you guys think? Any other ways to keep that level 10 cave full of sabre tooth frogs from fading into obscurity and being forgotten?

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Sum12hate

phdmonster wrote: »

What do you guys think? Any other ways to keep that level 10 cave full of sabre tooth frogs from fading into obscurity and being forgotten?

Frog racing contests like they have in florida.. lol but no in all seriousness idk how the wild boss system is going to be implemented yet but possibly have an engine that spawns a super rare or epic version of said monsters when a sub par amount of them have been hunted? Say in example those sabre toothed frogs left unchecked for so long will spawn a "King frog" that will send a horde of buffed frogs to hassle the nearest city until the population is brought back under control? Or go the pokemon route and add shinies for tamers that care about "achievement hunting"? Better yet have the population migrate to new areas leaving some new beastie to take over said cave players would keep on the look out for "new" monsters.. or maybe have the ever looming corruption cause areas to mutate monsters leading to special drops for a limited time that may be required for top tier craftables. Idk I'm just spit balling

Talents

Problem with trying to make level 10 dungeons relevant to level 50s is that the dungeons are open world. Be pretty shit to be a level 10 and think "I wanna go try this dungeon" only to arrive with your group to find a group of level 50s 1 shotting every mob and boss in the dungeon and giving your team 0 chance to do anything.

Voidwalkers

It's been said that lower level materials / crafted items will be used as mats in higher level recipes. So I guess there's always an economic reason for ppl to do low level contents.

phdmonster

Talents wrote: »

Problem with trying to make level 10 dungeons relevant to level 50s is that the dungeons are open world. Be pretty shit to be a level 10 and think "I wanna go try this dungeon" only to arrive with your group to find a group of level 50s 1 shotting every mob and boss in the dungeon and giving your team 0 chance to do anything.

I guess there could be some proximity based monster scaling for such cases, but i can see a lot of trolling happening with high level players just being douchbags and going around in lower level parties just to raise the scaling of the monsters..
Well, it's food for thought anyway. I think old content/low-level content should be relevant, otherwise it's a portion of the world that just gets the middle finger and that's kind of stupid and a waste.

daveywavey

They don't really have "Level 10 zones" in this game. It's not that linear like most other MMOs. They've designed their Node system to try and keep the entire game relevant. You don't go through, zone by zone, never needing to visit the last place you left.

phdmonster

daveywavey wrote: »

They don't really have "Level 10 zones" in this game. It's not that linear like most other MMOs. They've designed their Node system to try and keep the entire game relevant. You don't go through, zone by zone, never needing to visit the last place you left.

I am well aware how they want to design their zones. That has nothing to do with it though as i wrote 1-10, not level 10. Lower level monster and content in general will become obsolete if there aren't any mechanics to keep them relevant or incentives for people to go back into them. The node system itself won't keep low level content relevant by itself.
Why would a level 50 go do a level 10 dungeon unless he is helping a friend.
Why would you kill level 10 or 11 or 12 boars if you don't need the boar hides.

daveywavey

phdmonster wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

They don't really have "Level 10 zones" in this game. It's not that linear like most other MMOs. They've designed their Node system to try and keep the entire game relevant. You don't go through, zone by zone, never needing to visit the last place you left.

I am well aware how they want to design their zones. That has nothing to do with it though as i wrote 1-10, not level 10. Lower level monster and content in general will become obsolete if there aren't any mechanics to keep them relevant or incentives for people to go back into them. The node system itself won't keep low level content relevant by itself.
Why would a level 50 go do a level 10 dungeon unless he is helping a friend.
Why would you kill level 10 or 11 or 12 boars if you don't need the boar hides.

Why would you kill Level 50 boars if you don't need the boar hides?

The "Starter Area" is merely for getting new players used to the game, and once they're used to it, they're out in the world. I think you're massively over(under?)-thinking this whole non-issue.

phdmonster

daveywavey wrote: »

phdmonster wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

They don't really have "Level 10 zones" in this game. It's not that linear like most other MMOs. They've designed their Node system to try and keep the entire game relevant. You don't go through, zone by zone, never needing to visit the last place you left.

I am well aware how they want to design their zones. That has nothing to do with it though as i wrote 1-10, not level 10. Lower level monster and content in general will become obsolete if there aren't any mechanics to keep them relevant or incentives for people to go back into them. The node system itself won't keep low level content relevant by itself.
Why would a level 50 go do a level 10 dungeon unless he is helping a friend.
Why would you kill level 10 or 11 or 12 boars if you don't need the boar hides.

Why would you kill Level 50 boars if you don't need the boar hides?

The "Starter Area" is merely for getting new players used to the game, and once they're used to it, they're out in the world. I think you're massively over(under?)-thinking this whole non-issue.

Mhm.. I am overthinking it, yet in games like WoW where there is 0 incentive to visit old content (apart from farming mounts and transmogs now) the content is basically forgotten. People go into the dungeon finder, level up to max and play the new content. Nobody goes to 'The Barrens' and nobody does Wailing Caverns anymore. Do you know why? Because it doesn't give you anything.

And the same will happen with lower level content in Ashes unless they have an infinite amount of new players coming in constantly and there are always enough people in all level ranges, or they make it so that these parts of the content in the game are relevant for certain things even on higher levels.

Your statement about the starting area is wrong. The starting area has a node as well.

daveywavey

phdmonster wrote: »

Mhm.. I am overthinking it, yet in games like WoW where there is 0 incentive to visit old content (apart from farming mounts and transmogs now) the content is basically forgotten. People go into the dungeon finder, level up to max and play the new content. Nobody goes to 'The Barrens' and nobody does Wailing Caverns anymore. Do you know why? Because it doesn't give you anything.

And the same will happen with lower level content in Ashes unless they have an infinite amount of new players coming in constantly and there are always enough people in all level ranges, or they make it so that these parts of the content in the game are relevant for certain things even on higher levels.

Your statement about the starting area is wrong. The starting area has a node as well.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Starting_areas

"Starting areas include expeditionary NPC settlements that serve as initial quest origination points.[4] Lore-wise, these settlements represent scouts that were sent ahead of the main expedition back to Verra.[10]
These settlements are designed to acclimatize new players entering the world.[10]
While it may be advantageous to do so, there is no requirement for players to play through any specific starter zone content.[2]
Starting areas are not tied to the node system.[4]"

Have a nice day!

phdmonster

daveywavey wrote: »

phdmonster wrote: »

Mhm.. I am overthinking it, yet in games like WoW where there is 0 incentive to visit old content (apart from farming mounts and transmogs now) the content is basically forgotten. People go into the dungeon finder, level up to max and play the new content. Nobody goes to 'The Barrens' and nobody does Wailing Caverns anymore. Do you know why? Because it doesn't give you anything.

And the same will happen with lower level content in Ashes unless they have an infinite amount of new players coming in constantly and there are always enough people in all level ranges, or they make it so that these parts of the content in the game are relevant for certain things even on higher levels.

Your statement about the starting area is wrong. The starting area has a node as well.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Starting_areas

"Starting areas include expeditionary NPC settlements that serve as initial quest origination points.[4] Lore-wise, these settlements represent scouts that were sent ahead of the main expedition back to Verra.[10]
These settlements are designed to acclimatize new players entering the world.[10]
While it may be advantageous to do so, there is no requirement for players to play through any specific starter zone content.[2]
Starting areas are not tied to the node system.[4]"

Have a nice day!

Oh my gosh, such a burn. Thanks for the unproductive discussion by the way.
Question: How do we keep old content relevant
Answer: You are overthinking it.
GG WP EZ PZ

Warth

@phdmonster i like the idea of keeping the materials relevant through the utilization of low-tier gatherables in high-tier recipes.

Scaling won't happen. That was already confirmed.

Talents concern can be quickly alleviated i think. 50s won't go there, as long as the respective income they can obtain is significantly lower than the income they would obtain through farming content ranging from 40-55.
The limited inventory space and lack of fast travel should help with that already.
Why spend your time farming content that gives you 10 silver per minute, when you can farm content that that nets you several times that.

Low Level Content should stay relevant to lower leveld players. Profitability is the easiest way of ensuring that.

If nobody farms these items, their prices will climb and at some point somebody will believe it to be worth it. As long as intrepid creates a demand for these items within their crafting/economic system, the market will regulate itself.

phdmonster

Warth wrote: »

@phdmonster i like the idea of keeping the materials relevant through the utilization of low-tier gatherables in high-tier recipes.

Scaling won't happen. That was already confirmed.

Talents concern can be quickly alleviated i think. 50s won't go there, as long as the respective income they can obtain is significantly lower than the income they would obtain through farming content ranging from 40-55.
The limited inventory space and lack of fast travel should help with that already.
Why spend your time farming content that gives you 10 silver per minute, when you can farm content that that nets you several times that.

Low Level Content should stay relevant to lower leveld players. Profitability is the easiest way of ensuring that.

If nobody farms these items, their prices will climb and at some point somebody will believe it to be worth it. As long as intrepid creates a demand for these items within their crafting/economic system, the market will regulate itself.

I agree generally. The original idea of the post was about ideas on how they can create said demand for stuff from lower level content into higher level content, not to argue about whether it will happen or not. If there is nothing you need from lower level content when you reach 50, you won't do it.
If you, however need materials or other special drops that are only in lower level zones and dungeons then obviously you have an incentive to go and do that content.
I don't think i am saying anything controvertial here and some people just want to argue beside the point for the sake of arguing.

As for the scaling - i meant a mentor program that would scale the mentor down to the mentored player's level, but that's not really something i thought about for a long time. Could be good, could be bad. It's just an idea, which is the point of the post....

Noaani

phdmonster wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

phdmonster wrote: »

Mhm.. I am overthinking it, yet in games like WoW where there is 0 incentive to visit old content (apart from farming mounts and transmogs now) the content is basically forgotten. People go into the dungeon finder, level up to max and play the new content. Nobody goes to 'The Barrens' and nobody does Wailing Caverns anymore. Do you know why? Because it doesn't give you anything.

And the same will happen with lower level content in Ashes unless they have an infinite amount of new players coming in constantly and there are always enough people in all level ranges, or they make it so that these parts of the content in the game are relevant for certain things even on higher levels.

Your statement about the starting area is wrong. The starting area has a node as well.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Starting_areas

"Starting areas include expeditionary NPC settlements that serve as initial quest origination points.[4] Lore-wise, these settlements represent scouts that were sent ahead of the main expedition back to Verra.[10]
These settlements are designed to acclimatize new players entering the world.[10]
While it may be advantageous to do so, there is no requirement for players to play through any specific starter zone content.[2]
Starting areas are not tied to the node system.[4]"

Have a nice day!

Oh my gosh, such a burn. Thanks for the unproductive discussion by the way.
Question: How do we keep old content relevant
Answer: You are overthinking it.
GG WP EZ PZ

You should try and understand what is being said a bit better.

As Davey pointed out using a quote from Intrepid, the actual starting areas in Ashes are tiny, essentially irrelevant. So irrelevant in fact, that players don't even need to run through them when starting a new character if they don't want to.

Because of how insignificant these areas are, there is no need to attempt to keep them relevant.

Also, the idea of lower level gathered materials being used in higher level crafting has been a thing for over 2 years now.

phdmonster

Noaani wrote: »

phdmonster wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

phdmonster wrote: »

Mhm.. I am overthinking it, yet in games like WoW where there is 0 incentive to visit old content (apart from farming mounts and transmogs now) the content is basically forgotten. People go into the dungeon finder, level up to max and play the new content. Nobody goes to 'The Barrens' and nobody does Wailing Caverns anymore. Do you know why? Because it doesn't give you anything.

And the same will happen with lower level content in Ashes unless they have an infinite amount of new players coming in constantly and there are always enough people in all level ranges, or they make it so that these parts of the content in the game are relevant for certain things even on higher levels.

Your statement about the starting area is wrong. The starting area has a node as well.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Starting_areas

"Starting areas include expeditionary NPC settlements that serve as initial quest origination points.[4] Lore-wise, these settlements represent scouts that were sent ahead of the main expedition back to Verra.[10]
These settlements are designed to acclimatize new players entering the world.[10]
While it may be advantageous to do so, there is no requirement for players to play through any specific starter zone content.[2]
Starting areas are not tied to the node system.[4]"

Have a nice day!

Oh my gosh, such a burn. Thanks for the unproductive discussion by the way.
Question: How do we keep old content relevant
Answer: You are overthinking it.
GG WP EZ PZ

You should try and understand what is being said a bit better.

As Davey pointed out using a quote from Intrepid, the actual starting areas in Ashes are tiny, essentially irrelevant. So irrelevant in fact, that players don't even need to run through them when starting a new character if they don't want to.

Because of how insignificant these areas are, there is no need to attempt to keep them relevant.

Also, the idea of lower level gathered materials being used in higher level crafting has been a thing for over 2 years now.

Which is completely false. The entire world is empty. You think only the starting areas will have low level content? Hahaha, ok.
The entire world is full of level 0 nodes. That's basically low level content. Level 1 node will also be low level content. Level 3 also probably low level content. The node level will to an extent follow the player progressions in terms of level of content. low level content is not restricted to just the starting areas. That's idiotic.

Guys, come on, this is not funny anymore.

Noaani

phdmonster wrote: »

low level content is not restricted to just the starting areas. That's idiotic.

I was under the impression you knew how the node system works - mostly because you said you did.

No area of the world that falls within the node system is inherently low level - as every piece of the world can be any level (or fall within any level range).

As such, your concern of parts of the world being unused as is the case in WoW is unfounded, as any part of the world can be what ever level players want to make it.

And here is the part that is key. In order for the node system to function, in order for players to feel as if their actions are having an impact on the game world, there need to be parts of the game world at any given point in time that are essentially unused (or at least used little). You can't create a city out of nothing unless you have that nothing.

As such, the world of Verra having spaces that players simply are not using at a given point in time is as important to the game as the nodes that are leveled up to metropolis level for that given month.

maouw

I don't think homogeneity is balanced or fun.
It's weird to make people play through content they've already done.
What's the benefit of maintaining the relevance of level 1-10 mobs? Was there a game where you enjoyed killing the early mobs later?

Damokles

Make it possible to fuse low tier ingredients together into essences. These essences can then in turn be used to infuse items that are one tier higher to raise its quality.

Example:
You gather 10 Tier 1 Boar hides and fuse them into a Tier 1 essence.
You take 1 Tier 2 hide of medium quality and turn it with the essence into high quality.

Everdark

What I see as challenges to keeping lower level content relevant and some potential ideas how to address them:

Challenge 1: Lower level areas are quickly outgrown by the player in terms of difficulty, either because of gradual overleveling or because there is little variation or scaling in encounter difficulties outside of level range differences.

Challenge 2: There is little incentive to most players to stay in lower level content once it has been outgrown besides delving for lore or materials, as gear is quickly made obsolete by gear in higher level content.

Challenge 3: Population within the lower level content range is frequently low due to the two issues noted above as players more often then not focus on endgame. This can make finding a group for a specific quest or experience more difficult.

Idea 1: Allow players to halt their XP level gain progress. This addresses challenge 1 and 2, as players need not automatically outgrow lower level content due to gradual level creep. In addition, it offers players the option of becoming experts at certain lower level content. A player might perhaps become a sherpa for lower level dungeon content, having performed the various lower level dungeons many times and having acquired the best possible gear available at that level range. Perhaps if some skills can be improved in some way without increasing level, it would provide some players incentive to halt their level progress while they work on those. This makes twinking a concern, but the PvP flag system sounds like it wouldn't be game breaking.

Idea 2: Ensure that in low level areas the difficulty of different dungeons, encounters, or zones, scales from what one might consider a standard level to something extremely difficult. For lower level content to remain relevant, players need some challenge to overcome or achievement to chase that they can't just over level to address. If there are some extremely difficult dungeons or raids IN the lower level content that lets say don't reward players of higher level, but provides fantastic loot within the lower level range, it provides incentive for players to stay in the lower level content, gear up and challenge those trials.

Idea 3: This relates to idea 1 and 2, but perhaps specific epic or super rare loot from some of the extremely difficult raid encounters or dungeons in the lower level content can grow with your character, either being upgraded as you level or with some material you acquire as you progress. If that loot is good enough, it creates an incentive for players to chase it, and if the difficulty of the encounters is high enough as well, you create a scenario where players will halt their level advancement in lower level content to gear up (by way of experiencing that content) so they have a chance at completing the encounter and chase the epic loot.

Just a few ideas, not particularly well thought out either,

RocketFarmer

Dungeon design could/should be done so that you stick with the old concept that the deeper you go the more dangerous it becomes. Therefore there really shouldn't be such a thing as an exclusively 10th level dungeon or an exclusively 50th level dungeon.

Dungeon areas would be tiered to associate with the node level, such that there's an incentive for advancement of the node to unlock the higher tiered content. That's the concept they seem to be going with; will need to see the implementation.

The lower tiered portions of a dungeon are either pass-through areas, or may have other things to do to keep them relevant.

Think of dungeons as a location for stuff to happen. Events can move through these areas. Wise lower-tiered players will learn to stay clear when said high-tier event passes through the lower area, or can try to help the higher tier folks with some support effort. Big bosses are likely to be accompanied by lower-tiered minions. So there would be something for both the low level or high level character. And then you need to know when it's time to run. That would make the experience more "real" - in so far as a fantasy mmorpg can be real.

The other consideration is making mobs smarter. Why would a higher level monster chase after lower level PCs if there's a higher level PC with more stuff (or more meat) or even if they just think there is? That differentiation can be applied many ways. Some creatures may be drawn to magic, and thus will pursue them over the tank. That then gets into the mobs motivations, beyond just a mindless seek and destroy approach. But that's probably a layer that's a bit more difficult to develop. It would, however, mean you can have big baddies in lower level areas who instead of directly fighting the lower level PCs will send their minions after them. After all, the more powerful the boss, the more minions at his or her or its command.

Now how to address the higher level PCs from wiping out a lower level area? You'd have to provide some form of disincentive. One disincentive is the economics of killing a bunch of trash mobs means fewer rewards. Some players enjoy a slaughter, so why necessarily prevent that experience? Perhaps in that case the solution is word gets back to the boss, he sends even more minions to the area, and the higher levels become much more difficult as they are more prepared.

If you want to completely stop players from wiping the lower areas, then you make that part of the calculation in determining the difficulty for further encounters by a negative factor. Or in other words, while you may clear the lower level mobs with great ease, the difficulty of the fight gets harder the further on you go, but the rewards do not increase. The logic being you've warned the big boss you are here, so they have time to prepare and hide any valuable treasure. Perhaps make it so the treasure is still there somewhere, but it's now much more difficult to recover.

The disincentive strategy could also create situations where a high level party seeks lower level members to help clear out the lower level areas so as to preserve the rewards for the higher tier bosses. That helps build a stronger community with lower level characters having value to the team. Use the meta gaming teams/guilds will do anyway to your advantage.

The concept could be applied to nodes as easily as dungeons. But logic would suggest the more "civilized" an area is the fewer wild monster encounters there would be. However, the more "civilized" an area is, the more "civilized" monsters will appear. "Civilized" monsters being a whole range of things - bandits, cultists, spies, shape-shifters, vampires, etc. Opponents more likely to use influence or intrigue over raw power, creating a challenge beyond the old "kill 20 boars" quest - although you don't necessarily need to eliminate those, but those types of quests spring more naturally for material farming. That doesn't mean the threat of hordes of wild mobs or some world boss arriving doesn't happen, it's just those kind of events don't happen every day because if they did then the value of the experience is reduced. That's why good fantasy or sci-fi writers make man the worst kind of monster, and the man who uses society against itself as one of the worst types of villains. But I do understand these concepts take a lot more development and time to make work in a game.

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