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Keyboard/mouse vs controller in mmorgps
George_Black
Member, Intrepid Pack
Lately I started feeling uncomfortable on my desk and I started imagining how cool it would be to game using a controller for my PC, stretching back on a comfortable armchair. Lazy but comfortable.
But I'd like to talk about why mmorpgs shouldn't design their game to be compatible with controllers.
Bellow is an image of a hotbar designed for a keyboard only and one designed to work with a controller as well
On the left hand side you have the hotbar of Lineage 2. Currently I have slotted only 35 actions, MOST OF WHICH have their own unique cool down timer. There are 2 more available hotbars that can house 24 more options. Personally I like to keep my screen clean of UI. This hotbar occupies a tiny space at a corner of my screen, filled with the only necessary actions, and I can enjoy the view of my Gladiator kicking ass. "Only 35 necessary?" At the end of the post I will list all the actions and their functions. I also wanna remind you that all the combat actions have their own cool down timer, some 2-7s, some 2 minutes, some 5 minutes, some 15 minutes, depending on their impact power.
One the right hand side you have the hotbar of ANY class that uses physical damage in ESO. In ESO you have 2 hotbars that you switch between. When you are on the one, you can't use the actions of the other. Each hotbar has 5 abilities, all using a global cooldown of something more or less than a second, and one ultimate. They player can select a potion and have it ready for use. They keys you need for this hotbar are 7. Controllers can manage 7 keys, but the variety of actions as you can see is limited, as opposed to the hotbar of L2, which was designed for a keyboard. I would also like to add that this hotbar you see is used by the class Nightblade and the weapons of choice are dual wield and bow. The Dragon Knight the Templar the Necro the Sorcerer and the Warden will use almost the exact same hotbar during PvE. Same weapons, and 80% same abilities.
When I play my class I want to play my class. Not a small version of it.
My Gladiator, with the keyboard designed hotbar on the left hand side, has all the tools I need slotted to attack different types of players (tanky or bursty) different PvE situations (AoE, Raid, single target farm). I also have 2 more hotbars if I wanted to expand it. In there I have my siege hotkeys and my 1v1 arena competition.
On the right hand side, you have a hotbar designed to achieve more sales, introducing the game to PC, PS, xbox gamers.
On the right hand side, you have a hotbar that let's you slot a VERY SMALL % of the options you have from:
Class
World
Transform
Weapon
Armor
abilities. You are faced with a tank enemy? You'd better hope your settup will be enough. Faced with a bursty enemy? Better hope you have enough options. DPS race boss? AoE minions? Trash mobs during raid? You got 10 abilities. You better hope they are enough.
This is the combat that you have from a hotbar designed for a controller.
The same rotation of abilities vs all enemies in PvP, or PvE for the duration you are in Combat.
If you want to use different abilities you better get out of combat while your friends die.
If you play on consoles you better slot and unslot abilities every time you do a different content.
35 actions slotted may seem extreme to you and that it may fill the screen with UI. Not really.. As you as you learn your class/playstyle you dont need to worry about looking at the hotbar all the time. Minimize it and put it aside.
35 actions may seem meaningless to you. Not really. When they all have appropriate cooldowns and MP costs they are not meaningless. They are great tools. Tools that you use based on judgement to outplay any opponent or danger that appears before you.
Some studios, in order to achieve more sales, branch out to all platforms. But I believe that this lowers the quality of the combat design, and with the above, I support that opinion. Some games offer a better experience on consoles, some offer a better experience on PCs. I hope to see ashes stick to PCs and keyboard/mouse gameplay and I believe they will, since they are passionate about their product.
PS
The 35 abilities:
1
Normal atk
Strongest skill
rage charger (empower..)
Ranged Stun
Melee stun (only with a hammer)
Melee dmg low MP low CD (only with 1handed)
Melee AoE weak short CD
Ranged AoE long CD (strong vs robes)
Reduce danger from enemy melee skills
HP potion (HoT)
Pick up
Overhit (extra XP gained by killing mobs/bosses with this ability)
2
Equip selected 1 handed/shield
Equip selected Dual Swords
Ranged debuff/attack (lower defence)
Increase movement speed for a time
Affiliation transform
Higher transform
Equip helmet for tankiness gear
Equip helmet for dmg gear
rage consumable
Samurai Longswords gear
Deadmans Axe gear
Doom Shield gear
3
Increase atk speed for 1min
Increase atk for 1 min
Resist shock/root for 1 min
Self heal/Increase Max HP
stance detect dragon weakness
stance detect beast weakness
stance detect animal weakness
stance detect insectoid weakness
stance detect plant weakness
Meal buff
Special potion
But I'd like to talk about why mmorpgs shouldn't design their game to be compatible with controllers.
Bellow is an image of a hotbar designed for a keyboard only and one designed to work with a controller as well
On the left hand side you have the hotbar of Lineage 2. Currently I have slotted only 35 actions, MOST OF WHICH have their own unique cool down timer. There are 2 more available hotbars that can house 24 more options. Personally I like to keep my screen clean of UI. This hotbar occupies a tiny space at a corner of my screen, filled with the only necessary actions, and I can enjoy the view of my Gladiator kicking ass. "Only 35 necessary?" At the end of the post I will list all the actions and their functions. I also wanna remind you that all the combat actions have their own cool down timer, some 2-7s, some 2 minutes, some 5 minutes, some 15 minutes, depending on their impact power.
One the right hand side you have the hotbar of ANY class that uses physical damage in ESO. In ESO you have 2 hotbars that you switch between. When you are on the one, you can't use the actions of the other. Each hotbar has 5 abilities, all using a global cooldown of something more or less than a second, and one ultimate. They player can select a potion and have it ready for use. They keys you need for this hotbar are 7. Controllers can manage 7 keys, but the variety of actions as you can see is limited, as opposed to the hotbar of L2, which was designed for a keyboard. I would also like to add that this hotbar you see is used by the class Nightblade and the weapons of choice are dual wield and bow. The Dragon Knight the Templar the Necro the Sorcerer and the Warden will use almost the exact same hotbar during PvE. Same weapons, and 80% same abilities.
When I play my class I want to play my class. Not a small version of it.
My Gladiator, with the keyboard designed hotbar on the left hand side, has all the tools I need slotted to attack different types of players (tanky or bursty) different PvE situations (AoE, Raid, single target farm). I also have 2 more hotbars if I wanted to expand it. In there I have my siege hotkeys and my 1v1 arena competition.
On the right hand side, you have a hotbar designed to achieve more sales, introducing the game to PC, PS, xbox gamers.
On the right hand side, you have a hotbar that let's you slot a VERY SMALL % of the options you have from:
Class
World
Transform
Weapon
Armor
abilities. You are faced with a tank enemy? You'd better hope your settup will be enough. Faced with a bursty enemy? Better hope you have enough options. DPS race boss? AoE minions? Trash mobs during raid? You got 10 abilities. You better hope they are enough.
This is the combat that you have from a hotbar designed for a controller.
The same rotation of abilities vs all enemies in PvP, or PvE for the duration you are in Combat.
If you want to use different abilities you better get out of combat while your friends die.
If you play on consoles you better slot and unslot abilities every time you do a different content.
35 actions slotted may seem extreme to you and that it may fill the screen with UI. Not really.. As you as you learn your class/playstyle you dont need to worry about looking at the hotbar all the time. Minimize it and put it aside.
35 actions may seem meaningless to you. Not really. When they all have appropriate cooldowns and MP costs they are not meaningless. They are great tools. Tools that you use based on judgement to outplay any opponent or danger that appears before you.
Some studios, in order to achieve more sales, branch out to all platforms. But I believe that this lowers the quality of the combat design, and with the above, I support that opinion. Some games offer a better experience on consoles, some offer a better experience on PCs. I hope to see ashes stick to PCs and keyboard/mouse gameplay and I believe they will, since they are passionate about their product.
PS
The 35 abilities:
1
Normal atk
Strongest skill
rage charger (empower..)
Ranged Stun
Melee stun (only with a hammer)
Melee dmg low MP low CD (only with 1handed)
Melee AoE weak short CD
Ranged AoE long CD (strong vs robes)
Reduce danger from enemy melee skills
HP potion (HoT)
Pick up
Overhit (extra XP gained by killing mobs/bosses with this ability)
2
Equip selected 1 handed/shield
Equip selected Dual Swords
Ranged debuff/attack (lower defence)
Increase movement speed for a time
Affiliation transform
Higher transform
Equip helmet for tankiness gear
Equip helmet for dmg gear
rage consumable
Samurai Longswords gear
Deadmans Axe gear
Doom Shield gear
3
Increase atk speed for 1min
Increase atk for 1 min
Resist shock/root for 1 min
Self heal/Increase Max HP
stance detect dragon weakness
stance detect beast weakness
stance detect animal weakness
stance detect insectoid weakness
stance detect plant weakness
Meal buff
Special potion
3
Comments
There are a billion of those on amazon.
If a PC gamer wants to play on a couch with a keyboard and mouse. There is nothing stopping them.
Nearly any modern computer can be hooked up to any modern TV.
To the heart of your post, I would agree. ESO was a dumbed down for console plebs. FFXIV is alright, but you notice a controller player a mile away. Especially in savage content. Don't get me started on how awful console players are in FFXIV. They react slow and they under preform.
Accommodating these console cavemen is just not good for the game. These people are making a choice to play games in an inferior way on inferior hardware, and the PC version often suffers for it. It is not like DEV teams tend to magically double in size to support both console and PC players.
I don't want to see AOC ever do anything nice or welcoming for console players. I don't want to see a console port or controller support ever. I have seen PC games go from doing awesome and pumping out quick quality updates. Only to slow to a halt when they start supporting consoles too.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
If you think that because ESO has 2 bars with 5 skills that proves the whole potencial of a controller I have to tell you that you are horribly wrong.
Get a chair, instead of sitting on your desk!
I hope you felt as dirty as you've become.
I respectfully disagree. My mates and I used to parse purple/orange on savage content with a controller when I used to play. Playing FFXIV you should know what it means. It means that we were part of the top 20% to 10% best performing players on our respective classes...using a controller.
But please don't take my personal experience as a fact. There are plenty of world first/second/third kills from controller users. They're available on youtube for you to see. Don't make things up.
Not making things up, just my lived experience.
Not saying it's not possible, but in my experience it is far from common. It is far more common to see someone eat a "look away" marker every pull because they can't rotate their character fast enough. Every mechanic that can be missed due to sloppy movement is missed more often by controller users. Everyone makes mistakes. I get that, but console players are often a problem in FFXIV. Unlike WOW the FFXIV is more forgiving of mistakes so I end up being polite, and dealing with these people for longer. Someone that would have got kicked on pull three in WOW is still there dying to the same shit two hours later while we struggle with progression because of it. I have a fair level patience for it, but a lot of my WOW friends wont stay in FFXIV because of things like the controller users.
I will give you this. I have seen some clears by controller users that are impressive. You are not lying at all about good controller players. They are out there. When someone is doing everything right, they don't get noticed. I wish that happened every time.
I was not born into this world as someone who hates to play with controller players in MMOs. Party finder did that to me.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
The combat of ff14 is so slow and stagnant that it doesn't matter if you take your time to cast your rotations with a limited amount of controller buttons.
Judging by your original post, you don't seem to know how many skills I can bind on my controller. I could very easily take your Lineage 2 example on controller and still have room for other actions.
I am not saying I will use it. It really depends how it feels. To be honest there are very few MMO's where controller works out fine so it's up to Intrepid to come up (or not) with an intuitive system ^^'
I am not asking for it. i found out on the Wiki that controller setup would/could be a thing so now I'm curious.
I get that but we controller users in FFXIV have the same experience, The issue isn't controller related at all. It's just that the Final Fantasy franchise attracts a lot more casual players than other big MMOs out there. KB+M users are equally terrible in this game.
There is some truth there too. I had an FC bloke on KB+M. Clicking his skills, and using the keyboard to move his camera. He said he just takes his hands off his mouse to move the camera with the keys ("Real fast")...
Don't worry. WE FIXED HIM.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I don't care much for the argument about the other stuff, but wanted to stop and say this is so funny and yet so true hahahahaha
This is purely for accessibility purposes to allow those who otherwise can't play w/ a KBM a chance to enjoy the game.
I have been playing FFXIV on Playstation since A Realm Reborn and never had any issues with it. In fact I only got better at optimising my hotbars and with some classes I even had room to spare.
I would hope AoC implements something similar (the FFXIV one is trademarked I think) if they ever offered controller support
I was once told: "You can't copyright game mechanics." I don't even know if that is true, but it seems to be the case when you look at how many games are so similar mechanically, but different artistically.
I know Trademark and Copyright are not the same thing, but the sentiment is.
It seems like AOC could easily use the cross hot bar system or any other system from any MMO. So long as they don't call it the same thing or use the same art.
While I have stated that I hate Controllers, because I personally have nothing but bad experiences with players who use controllers for Input. If Intrepid was to have controller support I would at least like for it to be good.
I will also give you FFXIV players this. FFXIV is the GOAT when it comes to hud customization in a game that does not allow addons. I have stated on here before, if AOC is not to have addons intrepid needs to look at FFXIVs hud customization as the bar to beat.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I've played several MMOs with a controller, most recently being WoW (I have access to 40 skills/skill slots with my controller). I find it much more comfortable to be on my couch, with a keyboard nearby to type things out. To me its more about being comfortable and enjoying the content than being 100% competitive all the time. Obviously, others won't feel this way.
If I feel like I'm not doing well or competitive enough in PvP, switching back to kb+m is always an option.
And options are always good.
Totally agree that nothing should be sacrificed for controller support. Then again if they are really going for native controller support I hope they introduce it earlier, like A2, so it can be tested and suggestions can be made by players.
Hold crouch hold(l-ctrl), activate analysis mode hold(tab), scroll down to hack(w/s), use hack (E?)
It defiantly felt odd sneaking around as a netrunner. Holding two keys + moving with one hand all day.
I realize you can toggle sneak and analysis mode, but that just feels worst somehow.
By the time I thought to mess with the key binds I was 30 hours in, and could not be bothered to change my ways.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
While not an expert at all, I have had to deal with both of these in my current career (basically, don't take this as advice).
If the crosshair system in FFXIV were trademarked, that trademark would be the actual physical imagery of the crosshair itself.
If they had a copywrite on it, that would be the code that it is implemented with.
If someone comes along and implements the exact same system but in a way where enough code is substantially different, and where the actual imagery of the crosshair is different enough so that people would not reasonably confuse one with the other, then that would be perfectly fine.
Now back to your regular topic.
Tell me about Crouch and Skip Dialogue being the same button!!
There were a few times I accidentally initiated conversation with an NPC while crouching - so I tried to stand up and ended up skipping the NPC dialogue! >:[
The B button backs you out of menus and conversations but also is a melee attack. I have tried punching so many vendors and admirals in the face by accident I should have been kicked out of Starfleet a long time ago.
When a game is created for PC and later ported to a console or otherwise gets controller support it rarely goes well. The KB/mouse gives you so much freedom and it’s easy to design around, so when you try to make it work for a controller it’s often a disaster. Games designed to do both from the beginning work just fine, usually adding things like radial menus and limiting ability bars in such a way that it works okay in both. (The Witcher 3 is the first game I think of that did this really well.)