Crafting - how to make it engaging?

So a bunch of us got into talking about how we could make crafting more interactive on discord, and I said I would have a go at posting some ideas here.

1. Option for interactive interface to enhance crafting.
Could have a standard 'click and craft' option for those who want a faster route. This would cost the standard amount for materials. Take making a sword - 5 bars of iron, 3 portions of flux, smelted at a constant 800*C (numbers completely made up, I have no idea how to make a sword). This would be the usual, easy 'click and forget' crafting system seen in many games.

However, you could choose to go for the 'craft unique item' option where you enter a forging interface. Here, you could do things like adjust the temperature, control how hard the metal is hit, alter the amount of flux used, and your interactive skills could be unlocked and improved through the crafting skill tree (much like the antiquities system in ESO). This system should be higher risk but higher reward. If you muck it up, you get a badly made sword and use up more resources. If you do it really well, you could use fewer resources and create a better item. This system could be really fun to use to try to get the best quality items - risk loosing the best materials with the reward of potentially crafting the best items. It would also mean that the very best crafters in the game would have to understand how and when to change the temperature, adjust the amount of flux, when to hit harder or softer, in order to get the best results. Could even add extra ingredients for unexpected results to promote experimenting, like creating new alloys. They really would be and feel like master smiths.

2. Structured crafting planning.
Create some form of planning structure where you can adjust quantities and suchlike, a bit like with the EVE Online planetary and manufacturing systems. This would allow players to try to achieve the maximum efficiency for using resources getting the best quality goods possible, with new tools and options unlocking as your crafting skill increases.

Those are some ideas so far. Please feel free to add more or tear these ideas apart as appropriate.

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Comments

George_Black

I am against tedious minigames with skills etc for every aspect of the game, crafting included.

Crafting is not optional. It is very essential in mmos and so everybody has to use the system, whether they enjoy being a crafter or not.

I can see crafting being its own thing in games like ffxiv. But in that game there isn't much else going on.
The singleplayer is ez, you got your instanced content and gathering and that's it.

No weapon lv up, no node involvement, no faction quests (cultist, scientist, bounty hunter) on top of your primary class progress. No open world pvp obstacles, no guild conteibution and attendance.

I like crafting. After failing in Games Development I started a trade carrier. I also enjoy watching Man at Arms and other blacksmithing shows and documentaries.

But I believe that making crafting a minigame will take a toll on the gameplay experience of the majority of mmo players in AoC.

bigepeen

George Black wrote: »

Crafting is not optional. It is very essential in mmos and so everybody has to use the system, whether they enjoy being a crafter or not.

Is it really not optional? I was under the impression that a player could make money in a variety of ways, including but not limited to crafting, and since there is trade in the game, you could just buy the items directly rather than having to mess with the crafting system.

Emc

Yeah, it sounds like they are going in the direction of making crafting very specialized. But I think the varying levels Valdek provided might also address the concern for those who might want to craft an item here or there, but not get as involved.

Noaani

George Black wrote: »

I am against tedious minigames with skills etc for every aspect of the game, crafting included.

Crafting is not optional. It is very essential in mmos and so everybody has to use the system, whether they enjoy being a crafter or not.

I can see crafting being its own thing in games like ffxiv. But in that game there isn't much else going on.
The singleplayer is ez, you got your instanced content and gathering and that's it.

No weapon lv up, no node involvement, no faction quests (cultist, scientist, bounty hunter) on top of your primary class progress. No open world pvp obstacles, no guild conteibution and attendance.

I like crafting. After failing in Games Development I started a trade carrier. I also enjoy watching Man at Arms and other blacksmithing shows and documentaries.

But I believe that making crafting a minigame will take a toll on the gameplay experience of the majority of mmo players in AoC.

While I do kind of agree, I don't think it is that simple.

A mini-game that is required for all crafting is tedious. However, having a mini-game associated with just crafting top end/rare items isn't.

A crafter may craft several hundred items at a time to level up, a mini-game on each is tedious. However, they are likely to only ever craft a dozen or so rare items a week. Having a mini-game for that is not only fine, but in my opinion it is desirable.

Lycancoffee

I think crafters should have to perfect a song on DDR for epic + crafts.camera integration please.

Beekeeper

No minigame should be tedious, but simple click to craft is boring mechanically and not exactly evocative. If the game wants to offer gameplay besides kill&loot, it needs to make those secondary activities engaging in their own right too

Jeetoph

Like any other content there is no way to please every player whatever system is chosen in the end. That said, if there is an optional mini-game it should reward those who use it while not punishing players who don't. Crafting better gear with better stats through a mini-game doesn't really make it optional.

A better way would be either @Noaani 's suggestion where mini-games are mandatory but only for very specific and limited crafts or optional mini-games for every final craft which wouldn't affect stats. It could be something to customize the appearance or a way to craft with less (basic) resources for example.

Side note : Maybe it's better to regroup our ideas in the existing topic

Valdek

Jeetoph wrote: »

Like any other content there is no way to please every player whatever system is chosen in the end. That said, if there is an optional mini-game it should reward those who use it while not punishing players who don't. Crafting better gear with better stats through a mini-game doesn't really make it optional.

A better way would be either @Noaani 's suggestion where mini-games are mandatory but only for very specific and limited crafts or optional mini-games for every final craft which wouldn't affect stats. It could be something to customize the appearance or a way to craft with less (basic) resources for example.

Side note : Maybe it's better to regroup our ideas in the existing topic

A way around this would be to make it so that using the interactive form *can* be more material efficient if you do it well, so for example, you don't use as much of your rare materials, at the cost of using more if you do it badly. That way it wouldn't effect the stats on the item, but if you invest time in quality crafting, you invest less time or resources in material acquisition.

Personally though, I like the idea of being able to get a slightly better item if you know how to craft something using the interactive mode. For example, my old fencing teacher was a master swordsmith (in real life) and I remember him telling me about how when you are cooling the metal with water, you can dunk it once then take it out, wait for the metal to begin to a certain colour as it cools slowly, then dunk it a second time to get the optimal blade strength and durability.

Jeetoph

Valdek wrote: »

Personally though, I like the idea of being able to get a slightly better item if you know how to craft something using the interactive mode. For example, my old fencing teacher was a master swordsmith (in real life) and I remember him telling me about how when you are cooling the metal with water, you can dunk it once then take it out, wait for the metal to begin to a certain colour as it cools slowly, then dunk it a second time to get the optimal blade strength and durability.

You're not wrong. I'm just saying that it wouldn't be fair to call it an optional mini-game if it increases stats. The Meta will want you to have the higher stats.

Greendino

I see people complaining about tedious crafting minigames and saying the solution is not minigames and click to craft.

With respect, this is not a very good solution. First off, what one person finds tedious another finds engaging. Secondly, it is /not/ difficult to make an engaging crafting game. Please pay attention to FFXIV and the old EQ2 systems, in which the crafting essentially plays out like combat encounters with skills to use, their own stats and gear, and possibility of critical success and failure based on player skill management.

If the crafting system is simply click and press then it is not better than WoW and any of its clones.

Furthermore: this is going to be a game where not everyone is going to craft and that is good! The whole point of AoC is to have many many different ways to play. So, if you don't like crafting systems with actual systems and engagement needed to make the items, then you dont have to do it. Those of us who actually like crafting will be more than happy to do it for you.

mcstackerson

Greendino wrote: »

With respect, this is not a very good solution. First off, what one person finds tedious another finds engaging. Secondly, it is /not/ difficult to make an engaging crafting game. Please pay attention to FFXIV and the old EQ2 systems, in which the crafting essentially plays out like combat encounters with skills to use, their own stats and gear, and possibility of critical success and failure based on player skill management.

So i'll start with the fact that i don't consider myself a crafter.

This is why I'm hesitant to say we need to add a mini-game to crafting or there needs to be an active/reactive component to the crafting process. I worry that adding that turns crafting into the same kind of gameplay that players get from combat and wonder if:
1. that's what people who like crafting enjoy
2. If we need the overlap.

I'm not sure the answer to this but with people who like active gameplay already being served by the combat in the game, i wonder if crafting needs to be the same.

Songcaller

In Valheim, crafting is engaging but not tedious. There aren't minigames but there are pre-set dynamics. If you want to craft multiple items, you have to fuel the fire for example, feed the raw materials and also retrieve the finished products. You cycle through these three dynamics and it is quite an enjoyable experience. You don't feel like its a silly minigame, but, you feel engaged and feel more like a crafter than a simple click based crafting system.

I'm not fan of minigames in any aspect of a game - I shunned the Sniper Rifle in BDO and just hunted with a Matchlock for example, but, Valheim's approach was a refreshing change. There are ways to make crafting engaging without deploying minigames.

Maezriel

Rather than all or nothing or just limiting to rare items I wouldn't mind seeing a crafting minigame that gives a very small chance of a stat bonus so for those interested they can make better items but for those who just want to high craft all and go make a sandwich they can.

Jeetoph

Greendino wrote: »

I see people complaining about tedious crafting minigames and saying the solution is not minigames and click to craft.

With respect, this is not a very good solution. First off, what one person finds tedious another finds engaging. Secondly, it is /not/ difficult to make an engaging crafting game. Please pay attention to FFXIV and the old EQ2 systems, in which the crafting essentially plays out like combat encounters with skills to use, their own stats and gear, and possibility of critical success and failure based on player skill management.

If the crafting system is simply click and press then it is not better than WoW and any of its clones.

Furthermore: this is going to be a game where not everyone is going to craft and that is good! The whole point of AoC is to have many many different ways to play. So, if you don't like crafting systems with actual systems and engagement needed to make the items, then you dont have to do it. Those of us who actually like crafting will be more than happy to do it for you.

I played FFXIV and I can tell most of the endgame crafters use macros. They essentially just push a button and look at the screen for a minute until the craft is ready. Also resources are easy to get so even if you fail a craft it doesn’t matter. I doubt resources will be that easy to get in AoC (even without the PvP obstacle)

To be honest I also would like a sophisticated crafting system. I like it too. But FFXIV is not the way to go.

George_Black

Maezriel wrote: »

Rather than all or nothing or just limiting to rare items I wouldn't mind seeing a crafting minigame that gives a very small chance of a stat bonus so for those interested they can make better items but for those who just want to high craft all and go make a sandwich they can.

So the meta is the minigame. Comments like these prove my point. In a world filled with conflict of interests and competitiveness, like Verra, people will seek to get every advantage they can over their enemies.

Mastering a craft and keeping your inventory and chest full of wealth and gear will be hard, on top of all the other activities we need to do to stay ahead.

The majority of the players don't need a tedious crafting process. This isn't real life. It is a game. Most of us don't want to spend our gaming time inside a virtual house playing the "crafting mmo".

You want to pretend to be a carpenter or a cook?
Ask the devs for an entirely optional complex crafting system that the majority of us who want to pretend to be fighters rogues mages knights explorers pirates kings can opt out from, and go waste hours on it.

Noaani

George Black wrote: »

Most of us don't want to spend our gaming time inside a virtual house playing the "crafting mmo".

Then don't.

This is no different to people not wanting to PvP. They have choices, playAshes in a way that minimizes PvP,or play something else.

If crafting is actually made interesting (read; has mechanic associated with it), then this same choice can be made in relation to crafting.

Maezriel

George Black wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

Rather than all or nothing or just limiting to rare items I wouldn't mind seeing a crafting minigame that gives a very small chance of a stat bonus so for those interested they can make better items but for those who just want to high craft all and go make a sandwich they can.

So the meta is the minigame. Comments like these prove my point. In a world filled with conflict of interests and competitiveness, like Verra, people will seek to get every advantage they can over their enemies.

Mastering a craft and keeping your inventory and chest full of wealth and gear will be hard, on top of all the other activities we need to do to stay ahead.

The majority of the players don't need a tedious crafting process. This isn't real life. It is a game. Most of us don't want to spend our gaming time inside a virtual house playing the "crafting mmo".

You want to pretend to be a carpenter or a cook?
Ask the devs for an entirely optional complex crafting system that the majority of us who want to pretend to be fighters rogues mages knights explorers pirates kings can opt out from, and go waste hours on it.

This depends on what you're crafting for and how large the bonus would be. If you're wanting to min-max gold through crafting then yea, the mini-game could be the meta...however if you're wanting to just crank up your level in a certain profession to build your own gear or just putting something together to mass sell to lower levels then you really don't need to bother.

If you're wanting to min-max gold through crafting and are worried about a tiny mini-game then crafting likely isn't the way you should be making gold, you could instead sell PvP/PvE services, farm mats, or flip goods from one area to another. I don't have any strong desire to min-max my crafting so you won't see me participate in the minigames.

George_Black

Noaani wrote: »

George Black wrote: »

Most of us don't want to spend our gaming time inside a virtual house playing the "crafting mmo".

Then don't.

This is no different to people not wanting to PvP. They have choices, playAshes in a way that minimizes PvP,or play something else.

If crafting is actually made interesting (read; has mechanic associated with it), then this same choice can be made in relation to crafting.

Knee-jerk reaction comment. Pick up your game.

There is no choice if the crafting minigame is the only way to get higher quality items.
The only people who will choose to avoid the tedious mechanics are the people that DON'T WANT TOP QUALITY ITEMS.

Jeetoph

George Black wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

George Black wrote: »

Most of us don't want to spend our gaming time inside a virtual house playing the "crafting mmo".

Then don't.

This is no different to people not wanting to PvP. They have choices, playAshes in a way that minimizes PvP,or play something else.

If crafting is actually made interesting (read; has mechanic associated with it), then this same choice can be made in relation to crafting.

Knee-jerk reaction comment. Pick up your game.

There is no choice if the crafting minigame is the only way to get higher quality items.
The only people who will choose to avoid the tedious mechanics are the people that DON'T WANT TOP QUALITY ITEMS.

Well at least your high quality item is guaranteed using the mini game. Chances are AoC crafting system will be inspired from SWG. It looks really good to be fair but I’m not a fan of RNG having its place in the stats of the final craft. Need Crit for your proc based class ? Pray the the Seven you’ll not need to craft your weapon a dozen of times.
Like I said it’s not possible to make every player happy.

Songcaller

Plenty of people will risk Over-Enchanting (RNG). Its just an issue with potential repair costs and whether over-enchanting permanently destroys items or not.

Child Item