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What kind of crafting system do YOU want in AoC?

Im aware is too soon to start talking about the artisan system since there are a lot of things that need to be ironed out first like the combat. That said, I just read this 5 years old article about crafting systems in videogames and wanted to share it with you guys so we can have a discussion about what would be best for AoC in terms of crafting

Here is the article.

https://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/articles/5-approaches-to-crafting-systems-in-games-and-where-to-use-them--cms-22628

Personally I would like to see a variation of the "Made-to-Order Customization" since it allow a great deal of customization options by using different materials in the same recipes to get cool variations of the same weapon that are useful in different scenarios
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Comments

  • JamationJamation Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I personally really like "Find the Recipe" when it's done well and provides increased diversity outside of the basic things everyone would be able to craft from the start and allows certain people to become specialists that can be known for certain items.

    On the flip side, I really hate the "Guess and See What Sticks" method because it never really seems that fulfilling to me.
  • BlandmarrowBlandmarrow Member, Alpha Two
    Honestly, a mix of "Made-to-Order Customization" and "Anything is Possible".

    I really want the item you create as a player to be unique so that it matters what crafter you go to. But what I truly want most from the crafting system is that when you create a item, lets say shoulders, you could customize the look of the item to a certain degree.

    Lets say you could determine the size, place cloth that hangs down from it as well as type and color of the material. The more options the better.

    If you could do this to a certain extent with ALL crafted items I'd be beyond satisfied because at that point, no one will ever look the same.

    This would also be a good opportunity for them to add more cosmetics that are crafted, collected or bought from the shop to customize equipment.
  • +1 for a mix of "Made-to-Order Customization" & "Anything is Possible".

    I'd prefer a crafting system that allow for meaningful choices, and has a degree of depth that's worth investigating, instead of being just yet another kind of collectathon gameplay ("acquire X recipes & Y materials")

    Since Ashes is going for a stall-oriented market - if crafters have identical recipes, then they can only compete on price, and that makes stall-browsing an extremely boring task for other players, as there will be no "interesting" item, and your only goal is finding the "cheapest" item. Why not just use a centralized marketplace (where you can sort items by price) instead?

    However, a well-implemented customization system would allow for a much more interesting ecosystem. e.g. swordsmith A might decide to optimize his products for "sharpness" (per hit damage), while smith B decides to specialize for "balance" (atk speed), & C decides to go for "durability" (item requires much less frequent repairs) - now they all have something different to offer, and for other players stall browsing should feel like a completely different experience.
  • Hey there, just joined the AoC community. This game's planned features look impressive and very ambitious, can't wait. And since I love crafting, my first post will be here :)

    I never came across an "Anything is possible" crafting system. Sounds good on paper if you can see the result of the craft beforehand. "Made-to-Order Customization" would be my first go-to though.

    Imo the node system definitely has to play a major role in crafting as well. Like, it doesn't matter if you max leveled your weaver (assuming there will be a level system on crafters), you won't be able to craft end game gear through crafting stations in a small village. And different node types would give your gear different stat choices so it would make more sense to craft a sword in a military node than an academical one if you're looking for a specific outcome. I read that nodes will have a different look depending on the race who participated most. Maybe this can influence the looks of the crafts too.

    Also I fully support what Voidwalkers wrote
    ... if crafters have identical recipes, then they can only compete on price, and that makes stall-browsing an extremely boring task for other players, as there will be no "interesting" item, and your only goal is finding the "cheapest" item. Why not just use a centralized marketplace (where you can sort items by price) instead?

    However, a well-implemented customization system would allow for a much more interesting ecosystem. e.g. swordsmith A might decide to optimize his products for "sharpness" (per hit damage), while smith B decides to specialize for "balance" (atk speed), & C decides to go for "durability" (item requires much less frequent repairs) - now they all have something different to offer, and for other players stall browsing should feel like a completely different experience.

    But to make sure the situation in the first paragraph doesn't happen, players would need to have different customizations in different situations. If there is a meta for the whole PvE content and another for PvP, no matter how many different stats you can customize your gear with, players will all be looking for the same one and we will end up in the "cheapest win" scenario anyway because no one will want to buy a sword with the "wrong" stat. I think this is a very important point to crafting customization.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    I'm expecting Animal Husbandry to be the "Guess And See What Sticks" model.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • ariatrasariatras Member, Founder, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I don't know. I have never ever had a crafting system where I go. "Yea, this is cool." It should be as varied as combat. How do you do it? I don't know.
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  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    I always quite enjoyed the ESO style of weapon/armour crafting, where you pick your material and the bonus you want. Gives a bit of variety, as Voidwalkers mentioned above.
    a well-implemented customization system would allow for a much more interesting ecosystem. e.g. swordsmith A might decide to optimize his products for "sharpness" (per hit damage), while smith B decides to specialize for "balance" (atk speed), & C decides to go for "durability" (item requires much less frequent repairs) - now they all have something different to offer, and for other players stall browsing should feel like a completely different experience.

    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • daveywavey wrote: »
    I'm expecting Animal Husbandry to be the "Guess And See What Sticks" model.

    Ah that sounds about right for Husbandry, since breeding and genetics has a degree of randomness to it.

    I'd picture a system with some~ depth in modeling genetics, then throw in some weird breeding / combination rules & bonuses (points at the Winning Post series (Japanese racing horse breeding game)), then don't document anything at all and let players try figuring them out. (well may be left a few hints in game, that players can find out from science node libraries or by talking to certain npcs)
  • I like recipe based systems, especially when said recipes can be exclusive and take considerable effort to find. For example in Vanilla World of Warcraft, certain recipes were quite rare, at least for the first year of the game, and some people were knowing server wide due to having that recipe. It really adds something to the community aspect. Most importantly though, I want crafting to be meaningful. I really dislike games where crafting is a complete afterthought. It should have a key role in the game's economy and crafted items should be sought after, not cheap alternatives.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    daveywavey wrote: »
    I'm expecting Animal Husbandry to be the "Guess And See What Sticks" model.

    Ah that sounds about right for Husbandry, since breeding and genetics has a degree of randomness to it.

    I'd picture a system with some~ depth in modeling genetics, then throw in some weird breeding / combination rules & bonuses (points at the Winning Post series (Japanese racing horse breeding game)), then don't document anything at all and let players try figuring them out. (well may be left a few hints in game, that players can find out from science node libraries or by talking to certain npcs)

    Yeah, something like the sixth page of an eight-page in-game book happens to mention a creature that's part whale and part donkey. Aha! A breeding formula!
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited January 2021
  • Damokles wrote: »

    SwordArtOnline, nice. I remember that part

    So yes, I wanna play Space Invaders to decide how well my crafting went :smiley:

    As to the OPs question, I just want something that's fairly engaging and involved. I enjoyed ESOs crafting system as well as even WoWs. WAR's crafting is a bit too simplistic and I can take it or leave it from an enjoyment standpoint but it is necessary.

    I know this won't happen but please no DAoC crafting! If you can stand to watch this video :)
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  • MushinMushin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Anyone play Vagrant Story, I thought the crafting was pretty fun in that game.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I am pretty sure the current plan is to mix elements of Find the Recipe with Made to Order customization in the game: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Crafting

    I am pretty ok with that, but I hope they lean into Anything is Possible mechanics as much as possible. I prefer mechanics that add a lot of depth to the game, and I don't mind it if that requires more complexity as well. Complexity just for complexity's sake is stupid, but I'll take depth over simplicity any day.
  • personally i would love some deep weapon customization, like blade-handle-engraving deep, so you could actually have your own unique weapon
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    90Bubbel wrote: »
    personally i would love some deep weapon customization, like blade-handle-engraving deep, so you could actually have your own unique weapon

    That's a cool idea, but I'm not sure how easily visible it'd be in 3rd Person. Maybe engravings could follow the same sort of system as recipes, where you have to find the engraving design in order to use it?
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    "Guess and see what sticks" doesn't work when the wiki will publish all the recipes online - but even so, once you're familiar with the recipes, you feel like you are acquainted with the game's secrets - and it feels good.

    That said, my favourite is "made to order" with a combination of upgrade trees and customization slots.


    I also liked Maplestory's risk-reward weapon enhancement system:

    You could use "dark scrolls" which had marginally higher success rates (10% ---> 30%, or 60 ---> 70%), but a 50% chance to destroy the entire item on failure.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • volshvolsh Member, Alpha Two
    What i DON'T want to see is the crafting system totally being over-shadowed by dungeon drops/open world event/random drops etc etc, I want crafting to provide worthy pieces that aren't redundant too quickly
  • WarthWarth Member, Alpha Two
    maouw wrote: »
    "Guess and see what sticks" doesn't work when the wiki will publish all the recipes online - but even so, once you're familiar with the recipes, you feel like you are acquainted with the game's secrets - and it feels good.

    That said, my favourite is "made to order" with a combination of upgrade trees and customization slots.


    I also liked Maplestory's risk-reward weapon enhancement system:

    You could use "dark scrolls" which had marginally higher success rates (10% ---> 30%, or 60 ---> 70%), but a 50% chance to destroy the entire item on failure.

    Theoretically, you could make it different for every player, that way your recipes would indeed be yours alone and a wiki wouldn't help. Without much effort even. However, then the entire logic component would go out the window.
  • JeanPhilippeGungharJeanPhilippeGunghar Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I would like a BDo-Like system.But i guess i can keep dreaming because mister Shariff said repetition isn't something he will put on
  • As long as its engaging in some way and requires thought and skillful activity, I care not the specifics. More important is that crafting is woven into to game seamlessly. Crafters should be needed, and valued, by other players. It should be perfectly viable to just craft if you want.
  • What crafting needs is to move from the exchange of materials/recipes for end product into the realm of minigames that require player knowledge and player skills.
    The SAO example above is a bit over the top, but essentially yeah get me that.
    I need the interaction between buyer and crafter to be able to go in several ways:
    1. Show me what you got?
    The crafter has his inventory displayed with prices for different items. You like, you buy, you move on.
    2. I need a sword with these specs.
    The buyer is looking for specific item specs. Based on player knowledge the crafter provides the price and time to delivery. The materials required are known to the crafter and the end product specs are a function of materials and player skill in the crafting minigame. So essentially a good crafter might make the same weapon with less materials, cutting production cost.
    3. I have these materials, craft me a sword.
    Maybe you have this ultra rare mats that theoretically deliver a good augment to the weapon(life-steal or something). You go to the crafter and the negotiation if a free for all, you want that in, he fills in the rest. The player skill and knowledge serve to deliver the best stats out of the materials that go in the weapon.

    Essentially, I'd want crafting to be a game of it's own. The masters of it, should be known server-wide and their services coveted. Their secret sauce should be the mastery of the minigame that gets harder and harder with quality resources, rather than the simple accumulation of "levels in crafting" or knowledge of recipes you can google.

    Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk!
  • Samson1Samson1 Member
    edited January 2021
    I like all the ideas. I just hope it doesn't get to the point where players have extreme difficulty crafting or selling their goods because the majority of the server's player base keeps gravitating to the same handful of people to conduct business.

    I'm all for aspects of realism in games like AoC but sometimes it can be taken a little too far... which can lead to frustration. Realism in games does not always equal fun. :)
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  • CypherCypher Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Samson wrote: »
    I like all the ideas. I just hope it doesn't get to the point where players have extreme difficulty crafting or selling their goods because the majority of the server's player base keeps gravitating to the same handful of people to conduct business.

    I'm all for aspects of realism in games like AoC but sometimes it can be taken a little too far... which can lead to frustration. Realism in games does not always equal fun. :)

    I would imagine with how many players will be on a server, if players did try to gravitate toward a handful of master crafters, those crafters’ backlog of business would become completely unmanageable and people would not wait days or weeks for their items and would seek a lesser known crafter with similar skill.

    It’s also worth noting that there will be tons of master crafters on a server, my guess is anywhere from 1% to 5% of the server pop will be a master of a craft. That’s hundreds of players to choose from. Only sense in going to a specific person is if they’re easy to work with and have a specific blade/armor style you like. And that’s only if Intrepid actually does implement the ability to fine tune the shape of the blade, etc.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    Also, moderate to large guilds will likely have their own in-guild master crafters, removing the need to flood the server's other crafters with requests.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • You must also keep in mind that with no global auction house, there will be regional markets for crafted good. There is great difficulty in transporting goods, plus risk of caravan destruction will likely discourage the mass shipping of finished products.

  • CadacCadac Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    You can't drop finished items in PVP, so I would bet most would carry those on their person, or mule.
  • LycancoffeeLycancoffee Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited January 2021
    The best crafting system I've ever experienced in dozens of MMO games was from Star Wars Galaxies. Here is why:
    In SWG, the stats on crafted items always had a random range of quality for each stat. Furthermore, the possible quality of the item depended on quality of the gathered materials which were required to make the item, which also were given random stats (within a range, depending on the rarity of the material) when gathered.

    So, for example, a weapon in SWG had stats like damage, attack speed, crit, and durability, (there were other stats too, but lets keep the example simple). When a crafter made an item, all of these would have an rng chance of being higher or lower. The randomness meant that you might make a weapon with super high damage and attack speed, but average crit and super low durability, or you might make something truly epic with all 4 stats being high. The materials going into the weapon greatly affected how high or low the rng chances could go. The crafter's character skill and crafting tools also affected these chances.

    When gathering the materials to make the weapon, the metal you would get from gathering or the component you would get from killing an npc would also have rng generated stats. Certain areas would have better chances to find harvesting nodes that provided materials with higher rng stat ranges. Gathering skill and tools also affected the chances of getting higher quality materials.

    Because of the mechanics explained above, here is why this system was so awesome:
    • No two weapons, even of the same kind and rarity, were ever exactly alike.
    • Because SWG had durability (the way AoC is planning to have) no piece of gear was forever.
    • The best crafters created meaningful relationships with the best harvesters, PvE players, and non-lifeskillers. Crafters sourced and competed for the best raw ingredients.
    • Even if your skill was low or you had poor tools, you still had a chance of creating an amazing piece of gear, or harvesting extremely valuable crafting materials, but higher skilled crafters and gatherers could do it better, and more reliably.
    • You weren't guaranteed to craft "the best item" out of the best ingredients, but having something less than the best ingredients could still let you craft something amazing.
    • Economies were localized and the best crafters became truly famous. Players would crowd outside their stores waiting for them to put their next great pieces on their vendor.
    • All crafted items had a "made by" id on them.
    • Crafters could ban other players and guilds from purchasing at their shop. Getting banned from the shops of the best crafting guild had meaningful impact to both PvE and PvP players.
    • While each type of crafted item had some measure of randomness. Weapons, armor, and other gear still had quality tiers depending on the difficulty of the NPC's needed to kill to get the rare components. So a "Beskar Steel Breastplate" would still be better than a "Composite Breastplate" because the material to make the Beskar would be way harder to get, even if the Beskar crafter & gatherers had bad rolls and the Composite crafter & gatherers had great ones.
    • The best drops from NPCs were the rare/high quality materials that needed to be taken to a crafter to make the best gear. Awesome drops from hard npcs made crafters more valuable, instead of obsolete.

    The downside to this system was that it was complicated. In AoC it would mean that a new player bangs on a rock and instead of getting a "stone x1" they get "pile of stone: texture 10, strength. 25, hardness. 15, density. 18". Some players disliked the localized economy, because it meant a lot of traveling and shopping, but it also gave villages a sense of place, and reduced the power of central market bid bots.

    At launch, SWG did a poor job of explaining this crafting/harvesting system in game and the UI was awful, which made it even more unintuitive for many players at the time. Even so, I have yet to see a crafting system that made a player community so integrated.
  • krozairkrozair Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I would like there to be a basic level of crafting with find the recipe and the mats and you can make it, but this would give you only basic items, but would work as a start of leveling the skill, like learning from a blacksmith and repeating the standard recipes to get to the point you can experiment on your own so maybe after leveling 1/4 of the whole crafting progression you can then access a mix of "Made-to-Order Customization" and "Anything is Possible". At the same time you still can find basic recipes that continue to allow you to level the skill but far slower then with experimenting, but it will cost more as the raw materials would be harder to get then the stuff you use for basic gear.
  • AshburnAshburn Member
    edited January 2021
    Something tasty
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