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Ashen Forge Recap
maouw
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
I missed the live stream 
But it's up on youtube now! Lots of topics breached, here's a breakdown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS3e0vuj5lA
Back-end development (from ~2:50)
Content Creators and public attention(from ~9:00)
PvP looting (from ~11:20)
Expansions (from ~20:10)
general Node System (from ~25:30)
Crafting (from ~35:40)
Animal Husbandry and Crops (from ~40:30)
Combat (from ~49:40)
Role Play (from 55:20)
Game Design (from ~1:00:00)
Any thoughts from the forum?
I'm curious about Steven's gold/material sink comments regarding equipment durability and repairs. Do we repair our items via other player crafters or via NPCs? Coz if I'm paying a crafter to repair my gear - does that gold go straight into his pocket (remains in the economy) or will the crafter need to sink some of that gold in the repair process?
But it's up on youtube now! Lots of topics breached, here's a breakdown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS3e0vuj5lABack-end development (from ~2:50)
- Steven is looking forward to testing live-data collection systems, and hotfix deployment
- Live Ops team will be brought in later when the devs are happy with stability
- Pacing testing to make sure team doesn't burn out
- 'quick code' methods from 2 years ago have been revisited - no longer a concern
- The plan has 3 levers that can be pulled: feature sets, resources, timeline - if things go off plan, one of these gets adjusted.
Content Creators and public attention(from ~9:00)
- Influx of attention - welcome but out of the control of Intrepid Studios - no need to change schedule
- Content Creators are independent - transparent connections are helpful
PvP looting (from ~11:20)
- Durability loss in Ashes is not just a gold sink, but also a material sink
- Semi-loot of other players reinforces the supply-demand machine (even for PvE deaths)
- You cannot directly steal from other players' inventories, but there will be quests that have you target certain players for quest objectives.
Expansions (from ~20:10)
- will include standard content: new zones, mobs, quests, gear etc.
- Unique to Ashes: updates to the Node system (New buildings, new services, emergent gameplay etc.)
- Aiming for content that: makes sense, driven by the Node system, utilizing current technology
- 2 types of expansions:
- monthly/quarterly: smaller updates for those following along
- biannual/annual: major content (level caps increased, zones/bosses/gear/content/etc.)
general Node System (from ~25:30)
- Node System will encourage veteran players to return to old nodes so new players don't feel out of the loop
- Players who take a break can expect a different experience when they return, or try to create change
- Destroying a node will cripple NPC services there, this has implications for wider economy (e.g. supply chain interruption)
- Racial influx could trigger a similar change in Nodes.
- Racial influence of a Node will affect certain benefits - unspecified
Crafting (from ~35:40)
- Crafting is not planned for A1, but full testing expected in A2
- Progression in Artisanship is via both Experience and Accomplishment (benchmarks)
- Recipes are "consumed" to add to your recipe book. Before then, they are tradeable.
- Crafting will not be mix-and-match the way animal husbandry lets you breed hybrids.
- There's something to be preserved in the time-based processes of bulk crafting - it's best to uphold these traditions in MMOs
- no crafting minigame mechanics - they become cumbersome quickly
- Likely to see influence from SWG
Animal Husbandry and Crops (from ~40:30)
- Breeding planned to have an RNG element
- Hidden properties (recessive genes?)
- Crops will not have breeding
Combat (from ~49:40)
- Advanced Weapons - QTE no longer related, currently exploring different directions for combat system
- Still expecting to have RNG effects to proc in a fight - this breaks up the monotony of pure-skill combat
- These effects are intended to synergize with the active skills of your class
- These skills are not enchantments, but part of the weapon skill tree
- Underwater content does not have to be limited to underwater combat, on-ship combat is more important - underwater discovery is another option for underwater content.
Role Play (from 55:20)
- Roleplay tools: chat bubbles, emotes, dances, flowers (etc.)
- Roleplay systems: Weddings - related NPC's and quests, other events
- RP stuff often gets put in the backseat - but there is intention to sprinkle it in before launch
Game Design (from ~1:00:00)
- This is a passion project - it's easy to slip into unhealthy perfectionism - need to balance quality with realistic expectations
- Steven really values employees who are passionate to play this game - beyond just their skills and achievements
- Articles are on hold, because ideas are still in flux.
- Steven would prefer to release the next article on nodes when the node systems are much closer to what is actually realized - these are marketing moves.
Any thoughts from the forum?
I'm curious about Steven's gold/material sink comments regarding equipment durability and repairs. Do we repair our items via other player crafters or via NPCs? Coz if I'm paying a crafter to repair my gear - does that gold go straight into his pocket (remains in the economy) or will the crafter need to sink some of that gold in the repair process?
I wish I were deep and tragic
8
Comments
I loved the crafting discussion and the Animal Husbandry breakdown. RNG is present in Animal Husbandry which is an extension from Over Enchanting. Not surprised by the RNG Addition for Animal Husbandry. I loved to hear about the Combat Upgrades coming. I appreciated the fact several combat iterations have been in-house tested too.
Edit: Spelling mistakes.
We'd never get any answers in any Q+A if we can't discuss topics that may or may not change in time. We know everything is subject to change.
Aye - some great information confirmed, some good-to-have new information, and some eagerly-awaited words about the to-be Nodes 3 and 4 videos, that will complete the series.
So, rather than wanting to use a specific crafter because they are good, all you will need to do is find any crafter that has the recipe you want. Since there is an escrow system planned, you don't even need to find a crafter that you trust - just literally anyone with the recipe.
Yeah I understand the concern. But I also think they have greater plans for crafting and whether-or-not the crafter has the recipe is only 1 part of what makes a good craftsman.
Steven felt uncomfortable talking about crafting - and he's flagged that the crafting system isn't implemented at all yet - so crafting deets are for sure premature at the moment.
Yeah, one of my questions was digging into crafting too early. It's just difficult to judge what is and isn't appropriate to ask until you ask it.
You could have two brackets for the trade window as well, one for the recipe materials and one for other items that can be traded instead of gold to pay for the crafting.
Well I am used to games like runescape or wow where you basically have to trust the other person to take your materials and wait to see if they steal your stuff or actually craft the item. This method would remove that from the mix entirely.
Maybe intrepid want this sort of "trust" social dynamic in the game, but I would prefer my suggestion if it were an option.
If you attack my farm, I will breed my corn with you. Let’s call it a “role playing, crafting, pvp” system.
That would be the escrow system While I have no doubt that they are not done with the crafting system in terms of design, if they are specifically ruling out mini-games, then there is nothing to separate crafters.
You can't have a good crafter and a not so good crafter without a system built in to crafting that both crafters have to spend time to navigate - which is what a mini-game is. Without that system being built in to crafting (and any such system would come across to players as a mini-game) then the only thing you need in order to find a suitable crafter is one with the recipe you want made.
Ah thanks. Didn't see that until now. Neat.
My feeling is that they're leaning towards the way you spec/augment means you specialize in a way that's different to someone else. Also, specialization of crafters is more important in late-game than early/mid game - and I don't think end-game recipes will be dropping like rain.
There's also the option of high-tier items requiring a new recipe each time you craft it.
Jeff really loves SWG crafting, so I'm keen to see what magic he'll cook up.
Recipes, especially top end ones, will no doubt be rare. But they will continue to drop, and so will become less and less rare as time goes on.
Limiting individual crafter value to their list of recipes is a zero sum kind of thing - eventually everyone will have every recipe of worth.
As to specialization, all that means is that rather than looking for a weaponsmith with the sword recipe I want, I look for a swordsmith with the recipe that I want. It is very unlikely that Intrepid would make it so one player can't fully spec in to a weapon type.
Basically, crafters will all have set builds.
What do you think of limiting the amount of "master-craft" recipes a character can learn? The idea would be that you could never collect all recipes, allowing for people to specialize in and keep certain recipes rare.
Could be a terrible idea but yeah what do you think?
That means that the swordsmith you are looking for to make your sword is going to have the right spec for it, and t he appropriate recipe.
But even if that weren't the case, it is still meaning crafters are literally nothing more than the sum of their recipes and spec.
I'd like to see more than that, as I am sure would most others.
What sort of direction would you go at that point aside from skill-based mini-games that improve the quality?
Since steven wants the crafting to be a simple click and complete.
If you're asking what I would have done - I would never have said crafting was click and complete - as that one statement means all crafters are literally the sum of their recipe book and spec.
If it were me, I would set a mini-game to higher tier crafting - the kind of crafting you only do a few times a week. This prevents it from ever becoming monotonous and/or tedious (which is literally the only argument against mini-games).
I would make it so this mini-game offers bonus stats the better you do at it. These stats would be the only way to customize crafted items, but it you do well at the mini-game, you may have 10-15% of the initial, pre-bonus stats to place 9n the item where ever you like.
I would also make this mini-game harder the higher tier the item you are making is, so that only the best crafters are able to get that 10-15% bonus stats on the highest tier items, making them highly sought out for top end crafting.
The last thing I would do is make that mini-game optional on lower tier crafts - but with no change to the final product. This gives players a means to practice it, should they want to.
But hey, I'm not the one making the game.
Fair enough, I like that idea. I played quite a bit of Final fantasy 14 doing the crafting/gathering and honestly its very tedious and I ended up making an autohotkey script to do all of it instead of doing it manually. It quite literally burned me out of the game it was so tedious.
Having it so that you can only do a few tries every week or so to make a higher quality item would be a nice alternative. I would say give players a practice bench so that they can prepare beforehand when they attempt to craft the real thing.
Have a limited amount of "charges" that you can spend per week to attempt to craft the item, and like you said have it scale in difficulty with the tier of the item you wish to craft. Sure its a bit of time-gating but in this case a welcomed one.
To be fair a gathers inventory is a highly variable thing, but the explanation that Steven gave has restored my faith that intrepid is leaning toward having a harsher repair system for the sake of having a stronger economy. This is important to me not just as a person that wants to be a crafter, but also as a person that wants their work to maintain value for as long as possible. Something that made lineage 2 great in the era that I played.
I could never stay interested in crafting in WOW or FFXIV because the value of my work has such a short half life. FFXIV is actually the worst. Things are super valuable patch day and you can watch things drop in price at a rate of like 50% per hour as everyone undercuts everyone on a massive scale. The supply starts super low so demand and prices start in the clouds. Then the supply starts to go in through the roof, and the prices drop super fast. The only things that seem to maintain their value are some consumables and Materia, but the prices on those get low fast too. WOW feels very much the same just with some game specific differences.
Steven also said some stuff about the importance of game systems driving demand which is something that originally got me excited about Ashes, but I guess I needed to hear it again. I am very hyped about crafting and making money in AOC. To the point that I might lose my mind trying to pick a craft to master. A feeling that I have not had in a long time.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
completely agree on the devaluing other games do to crafted items. It completely ruins that part of the game, and this is one of my biggest hopes for ashes in that they create a proper living economy where I can shine or fail depending on how well I can market myself and if I specialize in a type of item to craft or gather.
Though I agree with @Noaani that when you're crafting rare end-game items, you're way more invested in the crafting process of that item - and the tedium of a minigame is worth the payout.
I also agree with Steven's comments about having space for time-based bulk crafting - but I'd argue that such things are more appropriate for mass-production, and crop farming does a better job of it than click-to-craft.
Ignoring scope creep (since a deep crafting system probably isn't viable - maybe in an expansion?) another direction you could go is to have a crafting system for artisan tools - with high maintenance costs for top tier artisan tools. E.g. whetstone (gravel), fine whetstone, fine whetstone (diamond), whetting wheel (gravel). Coupled with whetting lubricants/abrasives: dry, water, oil (2 star), silicone abrasive, etc.
And that only covers tools for sharpening blades.
You could extend this idea to get curing ointments from herbalists, different quality hammers, tongs, enchantment surfaces, rune slabs, etc.
I'm curious about other artisan ships like alchemy. About repairs, if i remember correctly you gonna need a gatherer also if you are a crafter. So maybe if you have the right material its going to be cheaper. Does higher level armor going to require higher level crafting to repair it? I dont think we know about that.
I really enjoy how he's so personally involved in the game and that he doesn't need to reference other people to answer these questions about how the game works. Really inspiring that he knows what is being done in the game.
When you look at it, players can add value to crafting in four ways. They can add time, they can add rarity, they can provide luck, or they can provide ability.
When a player is not adding any of these things, they are not adding value to any item they make.
If you then break that down further, time is a non-factor to crafting in Ashes if it is an instant craft system.
Rarity is added either via recipes or rare materials. If it is via materials, that added value comes from the harvesting/gathering aspect of the game, not the actual person creating the item. While it is possible that Intrepid could add single use recipies or similar, there is currently no talk at all about this, and even then that added value comes from the activity in which the recipe is obtained - which is usually killing PvE content.
Luck is only applicable in games where RNG is a serious factor in crafting.
Ability is only a factor where a good player can make better items using the same material, resources and time as a less good player.
So, if you have a crafting system where there is no ability involved in crafting, there is no RNG involved in crafting, there is no time put in to the crafting process, that means the only thing left is rarity of recipes.
That means recipes are the only way crafters add value to the crafting system.
As more people get each recipe, which is always going to happen, the value of crafting in general gets lower and lower. Since there is nothing at all involved in making an item once you have a recipe, the eventual cost of making an item will approach zero very, very quickly.
We've all seen this happen in any number of games.
The combination of things Steven has said he wants for crafting will result in zero value crafters, and high value gatherers.
paraphrasing from memory here: "Jeff bard was a big fan of star wars galaxies crafting, so you might see elements of that in AOC". Hearing a sentence like that from the creative director gives me major mixed emotions. On the one hand it is exciting that the DEVs know and understand what was so special about SWG's crafting system. Understanding that is a rarity among both MMO players and Developers. It is great to hear that because I am always looking for a more complex crafting system. The negative part of the mixed emotions is that you don't just "might" add that kind of depth to crafting. It is a level of uncertainty that I don't want to hear from any creative director.
There is a big difference in my mind when it come having "Elements of SWG crafting" or not. It is not like you just slap random variables onto every item in the crafting chain and hope for the best.
Getting to what you were saying. I agree with your summery about how crafters can add value to items. The SWG system would defiantly help with the luck, time, rarity, and skill components. If they went the full L2 route then everything just becomes supply and demand. Which is fine, but the crafting in L2 was lack luster. It was the economy that made L2 great.
You also bring up the fact that people will eventually get all the recipes. This is true, and I would prefer a limited use system. I know it don't make much sense that anyone would magically forget how to craft something, but it would give crafters something else to trade and upkeep. The best option for me would be the blue print system from EVE with the research and inventions.
Right now I know two things. The DEVs know about the systems I like, and the DEVs are not sure exactly what crafting will be like. I feel like the economy is going to be good. I really hope they get both right.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
To this day, yours truly hasn't seen a crafting system to match SWG's. I even played a trader as a main toon, per the usefulness of a Shipwright to a space-based guild. Can't recall the name of it right now, but there was a post-apocalyptic MMO that used the same crafting system(or tried to), though the game itself didn't get a stable following.
The only downside to trying to emulate such a player economy is that the whole game needs to be engineered around it. Most games aren't willing to do it, and for most games, it's probably not worth the effort. From the looks of it, AoC won't - but I suspect it will be just fine, if not every single drop in the game can be re-purposed for crafting or decoration. SWG did this, via a slew of side-systems.
The experience of crafting in SWG was *AMAZING*. You had to buy/store/trade materials that came up with random stats, and were only harvest-able for windows of time ranging from 4 to 22 days. "Harvester towns" would pop up in random places on different planets around the galaxy - temporary large groupings of harvesters clustered around the highest concentrations of the resource spawns. This will work differently in AoC, thankfully, but it was a fun mini-game, in-and-of itself.
Lastly, the quality of weapons, ship parts, combat pets and many other things weren't guaranteed; even with the best materials, you'd sometimes have to craft several of the same item, and hope for the best rolls to obtain the highest-possible quality of an item - or more-often, of a single, specific stat. I can't tell you how many times I'd craft different ship parts to get the best result. Yours truly would keep the best, and sell the rest. It's only fitting for galaxy-class Shipwrights to have the most-elite ships, after all.... I suspect that weaponsmiths will largely adopt the same attitude and habits, in AoC.
As far as I can see, this all but rules out SWG style crafting, even if some elements from it are present.
I can see SWG style gathering - in terms of towns popping up around resource spawns - but not crafting.
There are a lot of ways various games in the past have made crafting more interesting, and while I have my personal preference, all that really matters is that something is done to make crafting interesting, for all professions.
As far as I can see, each and every method used in the past has been ruled out by Steven - crafting mini-games was the last man standing in that regard.
While I can see the game being really interesting from a harvester/gatherer perspective, and I can see processors being largely left to deal with caravans giving them a unique place, once materials make it to the hands of the crafters, the process of turning those materials to a finished item has nothing of interest attached to it right now.