Game Longevity

BlekTheSnek

Hi there,
I had just learned about AoC last week and was blown away by the gameplay and aspects of the game that are unique. I think a lot of genius ideas are being implemented and i can't wait to get started whenever I can. I do, however, have concerns of buying into a game that I will end up dropping a few weeks playing after realizing my dream was just a dream. Theres a slew of information out there and i'm sorry if it has been asked before but...

Has there been any discussion from the devs about how they are going to handle the longevity of the game where so many mmo's before them have failed? I'm talking power creep, not enough servers to handle release day, pay to win/micro transactions, etc etc.

I would love to bring my community of friends to the game, gift them beta keys, and invest in a game I think i would play for years to come. Just looking for some sort of guarantee of not killing a good idea with bad business decisions.

Vhaeyne

No pay to win. So cross that off the list. The only thing remotely pay to win is the two day early start, but that is a debate for another thread.

When it comes to longevity there are a few interpretations of how this game will be upon release. It being a hybrid game, there are a lot of systems it is taking from other games, and people want the systems they like to be the main focus. I always refer people to this page https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Design_pillars because if you have played any of the games on that list of inspirations it might help you to understand what the DEVs are aiming for. Most of those games would retain a modest player base with zero updates or power creep due to their more sandbox nature. Some people on here don't see it that way, and think the game needs constant updates and level increases to keep the game moving. Ultimately we don't know what power creep will be like until we are living with the game. The same goes for longevity. In my opinion if the game is remotely easy or casual friendly it wont have much longevity. Others think all MMOs just need constant updates, and new stories to keep players attention. It is too soon to really tell.

I made my choice to support the game based on the fact that Lineage 2, EVE, and SWG are inspirations for the game. AOC might not be the second coming of any of those games, but I expect it to share enough of those games DNA to be wroth my time and support.

I also don't think we have to worry too much about mismanagement. Steven has 40mill of his own money on the line here. That is a little different than having something like NCsoft or Activison breathing down your neck trying to get you to squeeze dollars out of your player base.

At the very least spend some time on the WIKI before you gift keys. I have friends who would love this and friends that would hate AOC. I don't think its gonna be for everyone, and that is perfectly fine.

Songcaller

Steven said some updates will be monthly, some updates will be quarterly and some updates will be yearly. Steven also said Max Levels will increase in expansions which isn't my preferred style of expansion. The levelling will take longer than most other MMOs so I'm concerned about repetitive levelling. Don't want all my spare time to be levelling.

BlekTheSnek

Vhaeyne wrote: »

No pay to win. So cross that off the list.

Thats refreshing

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Most of those games would retain a modest player base with zero updates or power creep due to their more sandbox nature.

I guess my main concern with power creep is in one of the videos i watched they mentioned crafting gear being an essential gameplay mechanic, and i definitely want that to be true. All too often, in really any mmo I've played, gear becomes obsolete when a new expansion releases. That would completely destroy someone who has gone down that crafting path if they release a boss that drops something that blows it out of the water as an example. I know i would quit if i was a blacksmith of sorts in one of these towns & they just made what i do second-rate.

as for whether the constant updates or not that really depends on how immersive the end game is. So whether they do or don't depends on how bored the playerbase would be after experiencing all of the gameplay

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I also don't think we have to worry too much about mismanagement. Steven has 40mill of his own money on the line here. That is a little different than having something like NCsoft or Activison breathing down your neck trying to get you to squeeze dollars out of your player base.

Thats actually super reassuring hahaha

Yeah i will definitely be doing all the research i can, but i also don't want to spoil my first time actually playing if that makes sense. I saw the node system which i'm super stoked about with towns & hoping they give player owned houses, guilds, and roleplay life for the longevity. Thats all stuff unrelated to the thread though. I would still be curious if there was any developer content addressing a roadmap or talking about staving off game killing business decisions like classics Runescape/WoW

BlekTheSnek

Neurath wrote: »

The levelling will take longer than most other MMOs so I'm concerned about repetitive levelling. Don't want all my spare time to be levelling.

As long as the leveling is fun i'm down for a long journey.

As for the frequency of updates i don't really care whether they do or don't so long as the core of the game remains consistent. I don't want to have to relearn mechanics, have something i like nerfed into the floor, or feel like if i take a month off everything has completely changed.

Songcaller

If you take a month off, things will definitely change. The Node you call home could be in a Node War or your Guild could be in a Guild War. I'm not sure if a Node Siege could happen in a month but if it can your Node could be destroyed.

Ashes should be rather living and breathing. The core fundamentals will cross the expansions like the main game but the expansions will add new flavours etc.

BlekTheSnek

Well yeah i get that with the node system i more so mean if i take a month off and the game is fundamentally different like removing systems that used to be in place, Or some games that patch every two weeks you know a matchup in pvp like the back of your hand and then in a month you end up having to play it completely different because 3 patches had already gone through and buffs/nerfs become impossible to keep up with for people who work often.

daveywavey

BlekTheSnek wrote: »

I guess my main concern with power creep is in one of the videos i watched they mentioned crafting gear being an essential gameplay mechanic, and i definitely want that to be true. All too often, in really any mmo I've played, gear becomes obsolete when a new expansion releases. That would completely destroy someone who has gone down that crafting path if they release a boss that drops something that blows it out of the water as an example. I know i would quit if i was a blacksmith of sorts in one of these towns & they just made what i do second-rate.

The raid bosses generally drop crafting materials so Crafters can make the best gear. If you're an armour crafter, you'll always have a job.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Raid_bosses#Loot_tables

Songcaller

BlekTheSnek wrote: »

Well yeah i get that with the node system i more so mean if i take a month off and the game is fundamentally different like removing systems that used to be in place, Or some games that patch every two weeks you know a matchup in pvp like the back of your hand and then in a month you end up having to play it completely different because 3 patches had already gone through and buffs/nerfs become impossible to keep up with for people who work often.

yeah I understand, I also agree with the stance. Fortunately, most massive changes should happen before Betas.

BlekTheSnek

daveywavey wrote: »

The raid bosses generally drop crafting materials so Crafters can make the best gear. If you're an armour crafter, you'll always have a job.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Raid_bosses#Loot_tables

sweeeet

BlekTheSnek

Neurath wrote: »

yeah I understand, I also agree with the stance. Fortunately, most massive changes should happen before Betas.

you would think but not all developers share that game philosophy

Songcaller

We give feedback as swift as we can and changes are made as swift as possible. I'm not saying the majority are vocal for change, but the minority are definitely vocal to keep the Devs on their toes.

daveywavey

BlekTheSnek wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

The raid bosses generally drop crafting materials so Crafters can make the best gear. If you're an armour crafter, you'll always have a job.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Raid_bosses#Loot_tables

sweeeet

In fact, it's likely that the artisan experts will play a major part in actually extracting these elite materials.

From the same link as above:
"If you want to be able to get those mats from the boss, they're just not going to drop for anybody. They will only drop for a master gatherer who is capable of extracting those resources from the creature itself... The reason why we say there's a lot of interdependencies between the crafters of the world and the raiders of the world and our PvPers of the world is because we don't want to house the capability to attain these things all within the adventuring class. We want there to be an influence necessary from the craftsmen's guild to come in to either come and participate and spoil the boss and gather the goods or something along those lines.[33] – Steven Sharif"

BlekTheSnek

Thats a really cool idea I have friends who would love to roleplay\own a shop or whatever. Be a crafter, Smith, etc. I think giving those usual "npc elements" back to players is enticing and good for the game if thats the direction they are going. How to make gathering and crafting fun is beyond me, but I'm glad they figured it out somehow.

daveywavey

Sounds like you all need to sign up.

Tyranthraxus

The creative director, Steven Sharif, has given a LOT of interviews - and in some of the more-recent ones, he's stressed being fully ready for launch. Bad launches have ruined a lot of games pre-maturely, and he's well-aware of this. Would start with the more-recent ones and work backwards, if you're looking for some insight into his feelings, about this. They're not all in the Ashes of Creation YouTube channel, as many of them are from private podcasts / streamers.

Frostshot

There is something to be said about nostalgia. I wonder how that will affect AoC in the long run? One of the big draws people had towards wow classic was the nostalgia of going back and revisiting the past. How will that be possible with an ever changing game environment? If we take a break and park our characters in a tavern we frequent, there is a very good chance it wont exist when we return. Right? IRL things change, sometimes quickly, for better or worse. A draw for some to video games in general is the lack of change that occurs. A static and familiar realm that never ages.

I'm not saying that this is what I want personally, but it does bring up some questions.

daveywavey

So grab an army, raze the new node, and build a replica of your old one in its place!

Mushin

One thing I absolutely hate with Mmos is devs making new progression systems that makes everything you have done previously meaningless.

Songcaller

I loved Age of Conan's expansions. New lands opened. New raids opened. Tiers expanded from t2 to t6. Character Levels never expanded. I love the combat system. I hate the PvP Options. Loved the sieges. Loved building player cities and loved building Siege Strongholds.

BlekTheSnek

mushin wrote: »

One thing I absolutely hate with Mmos is devs making new progression systems that makes everything you have done previously meaningless.

exactly, i couldn't agree more

WhitneyHagasMatsumoto

Personally, I am very intrigued by @Frostshot -san opinion.

Traveling through the exciting world with all its changes is a very meaningful time.
Going back to your hometown in between is also a meaningful time where you can find peace.
I think that this kind of unchanging goodness is one of the most important factors in enjoying games for a long time.

From that perspective, perhaps nostalgia can be thought of as something that is gained not from the streets and familiar dungeons, but from the close players who are active in various places

Luthienstorm

Frostshot wrote: »

There is something to be said about nostalgia. I wonder how that will affect AoC in the long run? One of the big draws people had towards wow classic was the nostalgia of going back and revisiting the past. How will that be possible with an ever changing game environment? If we take a break and park our characters in a tavern we frequent, there is a very good chance it wont exist when we return. Right? IRL things change, sometimes quickly, for better or worse. A draw for some to video games in general is the lack of change that occurs. A static and familiar realm that never ages.

I'm not saying that this is what I want personally, but it does bring up some questions.

One thing I wish they would do is allow players to de-level to help new players enjoy the experience when they have trouble finding a party and make a heroic or mythic mode out of beginning content.

pyreal

BlekTheSnek wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

The levelling will take longer than most other MMOs so I'm concerned about repetitive levelling. Don't want all my spare time to be levelling.

As long as the leveling is fun i'm down for a long journey.

As for the frequency of updates i don't really care whether they do or don't so long as the core of the game remains consistent. I don't want to have to relearn mechanics, have something i like nerfed into the floor, or feel like if i take a month off everything has completely changed.

Don't quote me, but I think in Asmongold's interview with Steven, he mentions update spacing... or it might have been in the interview with Ashen Forge..

Asmongold: https://youtu.be/H0LQSMT83L0

Ashen Forge: https://youtu.be/RS3e0vuj5lA

BlekTheSnek

pyreal wrote: »

Don't quote me, but I think in Asmongold's interview with Steven, he mentions update spacing... or it might have been in the interview with Ashen Forge..

Too late i already quoted you
thanks for this this is exactly what i wanted to see from this forum post.

bloodprophet

Luthienstorm wrote: »

Frostshot wrote: »

There is something to be said about nostalgia. I wonder how that will affect AoC in the long run? One of the big draws people had towards wow classic was the nostalgia of going back and revisiting the past. How will that be possible with an ever changing game environment? If we take a break and park our characters in a tavern we frequent, there is a very good chance it wont exist when we return. Right? IRL things change, sometimes quickly, for better or worse. A draw for some to video games in general is the lack of change that occurs. A static and familiar realm that never ages.

I'm not saying that this is what I want personally, but it does bring up some questions.

One thing I wish they would do is allow players to de-level to help new players enjoy the experience when they have trouble finding a party and make a heroic or mythic mode out of beginning content.

There will be a mentor program allowing you to de-level and help your friends but not to scale up and do higher content.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Leveling#Mentor_program