Random Thought. Anti-Corruption system (but for pve)

Now everyone hold your horses it sounds worse due to the "yet another corruption thread blah blah." Don't worry this is in a pve minded direction.

So, what if there was a stacking debuff/buff similar to corruption that marked you as a "corruption cleanser" or some better sounding name. This would be the opposite of the corruption system, and build up when killing lower than your level ancients/corrupted creatures under the influence of ancients. My initial thoughts are not to give any special debuffs or combat inhibitions, but perhaps this can stack up to start summoning ancients to "defend" the lower life forms they command/control. Basically if you are hanging about low level areas killing creatures below your level that are associated with the ancients you will have encounters with powerful ancients which are basically there to give you some issues rather than mindlessly cleaving your way through low level content for quick coin. It also works as a slight deterrent for higher level players, allowing low levels to grind in more relative peace within their appropriate leveled areas.

The only system I can think of that could best represent what I am proposing (that I know of) is the current 5 tier system in The Maw of World of Warcraft. It builds up over time and releases more monsters and hinderances to attempt to kill the player.

Now, the build up would have a limit, and could even be a way to cause monster waves or open world boss fights to spawn. This all would need work to pull off and flesh out but this is my basic idea that randomly popped into my head and I thought I would share it with you all.

Let's be honest, this is better than endlessly throwing the "Tank" hot potato back and forth.

Comments

  • interesting.. I like it
  • I do like systems that start gradually spawning more powerful enemies/minibosses and bosses when a type of enemy is repeaditely killed. Especially if these special spawns are dangerous.
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Founder
    Sounds cool, but what happens when high level players slaughter all low level enemies in groups so that they can summon and kill these higher level enemies for loot?

    I guess you could balance it so that those higher level enemies that spawn don't give anything useful, but then they would just be an annoyance and maybe an annoying solution to a problem that might not even exist?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Sounds cool, but what happens when high level players slaughter all low level enemies in groups so that they can summon and kill these higher level enemies for loot?
    This is my first thought as well - it is an easy system to game as outlined.

    I think a slight alteration to the system that would make it better would be that the level of the summoned enemies be the same as that of the base population that is killed, but rather are higher tier - as in, killing lots of solo mobs may summon a group mob, killing lots of group mobs may summon a raid mob etc.

    It needs to be remembered that 90%+ of the game will be played at the level cap - as is the case for every MMO. As such, mechanics for boss mobs and the like need to be focused largely (though specifically not primarily) on that level cap. One of the things that would need to be focused on is that those level capped players don't feel the need to interrupt lower level players in order to get boss encounters to kill.

    At it's base level, this suggestion is a system by which rare/boss encounters spawn. It is an interesting system, for sure, but I am not sure if it is the system I most prefer to facilitate that specific task.
  • But but, what if I'm that poor working class (artisan) player who has a legitimate need to farm lower level mats? (As low level items have a place in the supply chain)
  • Sathrago wrote: »
    Now everyone hold your horses it sounds worse due to the "yet another corruption thread blah blah." Don't worry this is in a pve minded direction.

    So, what if there was a stacking debuff/buff similar to corruption that marked you as a "corruption cleanser" or some better sounding name. This would be the opposite of the corruption system, and build up when killing lower than your level ancients/corrupted creatures under the influence of ancients. My initial thoughts are not to give any special debuffs or combat inhibitions, but perhaps this can stack up to start summoning ancients to "defend" the lower life forms they command/control. Basically if you are hanging about low level areas killing creatures below your level that are associated with the ancients you will have encounters with powerful ancients which are basically there to give you some issues rather than mindlessly cleaving your way through low level content for quick coin. It also works as a slight deterrent for higher level players, allowing low levels to grind in more relative peace within their appropriate leveled areas.

    The only system I can think of that could best represent what I am proposing (that I know of) is the current 5 tier system in The Maw of World of Warcraft. It builds up over time and releases more monsters and hinderances to attempt to kill the player.

    Now, the build up would have a limit, and could even be a way to cause monster waves or open world boss fights to spawn. This all would need work to pull off and flesh out but this is my basic idea that randomly popped into my head and I thought I would share it with you all.

    Let's be honest, this is better than endlessly throwing the "Tank" hot potato back and forth.

    Sounds like UO's champion spawn system.
  • @VmanGman @Noaani I completely understand those concerns and honestly do not know what could be done to stop rampant farming from high level players. So the ideal way this works is for there to be a sort of hinderance on solo to small party high level players going around mowing through low levels for materials to flood the market. This helps low levels participate in the market and feel apart of the larger economy. However if a larger group wants to go and fight a powerful boss or encounter for some rare materials they could also do that. So I guess a balance of difficulty is the most pressing issue, and perhaps even a limiter on how many times the encounter can be "summoned" per day and area?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Sathrago wrote: »
    So I guess a balance of difficulty is the most pressing issue, and perhaps even a limiter on how many times the encounter can be "summoned" per day and area?
    The problem with a limiter like this is that players won't know that the limit has been hit.

    If these limits are reset at midnight based on the local regional time - chances are a good number of them will be farmed out by 1 or 2 in the morning. People then logging in after work wanting to farm these mobs would have no reason to know that they have already had their allocation met.

    To me, the simple solution is to have enough of the base population encounters present so that people wanting to farm the harder encounters simply can't keep up with them all, meaning the people farming the encounters for other reasons are actually assisting the group wanting to farm the harder encounter - meaning the group is more likely to leave these players alone.

    This only works if the encounters in question are strong enough to potentially overwhelm the group in large enough numbers, bringing it back to the need I said earlier of keeping everything at around the same level.
  • I like the idea of punishing players for attacking lower level mobs. The classic penalty would just be no reward for doing so.

    The main problem I see with your idea if I understand it right is that you would want attacking low level mobs to cause something more powerful to be spawned. This seems like something that would have the opposite effect of punishing players. People would do it just to get these higher level mobs to spawn.

    Now if these higher level mobs had no reward, or even better made you drop loot like PvP corruption. Then we would have something I would be interested in.

    (sort of off topic, but semi related)
    I know a lot of people did not like L2's raid curse, but something like that is going to have to be in AOC to make open world raids work at all levels. Otherwise leveling players will not have access to raids. Which I really liked getting in a group to go raid hunting in L2 while leveling.
    CctsKnC.png Verra-similitude
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    edited February 23
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    I like the idea of punishing players for attacking lower level mobs. The classic penalty would just be no reward for doing so.

    The main problem I see with your idea if I understand it right is that you would want attacking low level mobs to cause something more powerful to be spawned. This seems like something that would have the opposite effect of punishing players. People would do it just to get these higher level mobs to spawn.

    Now if these higher level mobs had no reward, or even better made you drop loot like PvP corruption. Then we would have something I would be interested in.

    (sort of off topic, but semi related)
    I know a lot of people did not like L2's raid curse, but something like that is going to have to be in AOC to make open world raids work at all levels. Otherwise leveling players will not have access to raids. Which I really liked getting in a group to go raid hunting in L2 while leveling.

    Hmmm, what about this? These powerful mobs will deal extra durability damage and apply other debilitating effects to players like hexes and curses with decently long durations. They will have loot but they will not be materials for crafting, only tokens for a bit of coin for their trouble.

    In the case of boss summoning, they could add atmospheric effects within that zone that slowly build up as creatures are slain before the boss is summoned. So it starts out like a small red vortex in the sky and expands out before an ancient boss is fully summoned over to defeat. If the vortex is not in the sky then no boss will be summoned, and you only get to deal with the annoying monsters. For the bosses I would be fine with it dropping unique rewards and resources since they would be less frequent. Maybe not super rare materials for high end gear, but enough to feel rewarding. A way to do the vortex spawning would be to have only a set amount spawned into the world at anytime, and a zone cannot gain another chance at spawning a vortex until a set number of other vortexes have been defeated. So you defeat one in your zone and this causes one to immediately spawn in another zpne that has not recently had a spawn according to the above limits.

    I think this could create hunting parties for zones outside of the frequented nodes for these bosses while making low level creatures less appealing to farm as a high level player without entirely removing the freedom to do so.

    Honestly this could be a cool little social organization that are like paladins or knights who have been tasked with defending the world from the corruption invasions. This could be used to unlock cosmetics, titles, mounts, etc. And this would only be one aspect, I am sure they could build off this general idea.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Sathrago wrote: »
    For the bosses I would be fine with it dropping unique rewards
    Again, this means it is something players will farm.

    Basically, what you are saying is you want to add in a deterrent to players killing the same mobs over and over again, but then you want to build in a reward to that deterrent.

    A system needs to be either one or the other - either a reward or a deterrent. It can't be both, because then it is neither.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    For the bosses I would be fine with it dropping unique rewards
    Again, this means it is something players will farm.

    Basically, what you are saying is you want to add in a deterrent to players killing the same mobs over and over again, but then you want to build in a reward to that deterrent.

    A system needs to be either one or the other - either a reward or a deterrent. It can't be both, because then it is neither.

    I dont agree that it needs to be a pure deterrent. Just look at corruption, it is a clear risk for reward structure but heavily in favor of the punishing the player for their risks.

    Now if these bosses only spawn in different areas rather than everywhere at the same time, your farmers will have to migrate if they wish to do the fights rather than always taking up the low level areas farming spots.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Sathrago wrote: »
    [
    I dont agree that it needs to be a pure deterrent. Just look at corruption, it is a clear risk for reward structure but heavily in favor of the punishing the player for their risks.

    Now if these bosses only spawn in different areas rather than everywhere at the same time, your farmers will have to migrate if they wish to do the fights rather than always taking up the low level areas farming spots.
    Corruption is a pure deterrent - there is no benefit to gaining corruption. There is a benefit to killing people, but not to gaining corruption. The idea is that the game is pushing you to fight people that will fight back.

    The thing with your suggestion is that both the reward and the deterrent are based on the same single action - killing the base population.

    If you made it so the bosses only spawned in different areas, think about how that would affect the core of your suggestion. Those players you want to deter have no deterrent left, because the boss isn't going to spawn where they are farming that low level content.

    Personally, I think a better deterrent to stopping low level farming is to do what may other games do - just don't offer rewards on content that is 10 levels or more below you.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Corruption is a pure deterrent - there is no benefit to gaining corruption.
    You get a sweet ass blood red name that lets everyone know that you are willing to throw down.
    CctsKnC.png Verra-similitude
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Corruption is a pure deterrent - there is no benefit to gaining corruption.
    You get a sweet ass blood red name that lets everyone know that you are willing to throw down.

    This is true.
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    edited February 23
    Noaani wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    [
    I dont agree that it needs to be a pure deterrent. Just look at corruption, it is a clear risk for reward structure but heavily in favor of the punishing the player for their risks.

    Now if these bosses only spawn in different areas rather than everywhere at the same time, your farmers will have to migrate if they wish to do the fights rather than always taking up the low level areas farming spots.
    Corruption is a pure deterrent - there is no benefit to gaining corruption. There is a benefit to killing people, but not to gaining corruption. The idea is that the game is pushing you to fight people that will fight back.

    The thing with your suggestion is that both the reward and the deterrent are based on the same single action - killing the base population.

    If you made it so the bosses only spawned in different areas, think about how that would affect the core of your suggestion. Those players you want to deter have no deterrent left, because the boss isn't going to spawn where they are farming that low level content.

    Personally, I think a better deterrent to stopping low level farming is to do what may other games do - just don't offer rewards on content that is 10 levels or more below you.

    I think we have had this argument before about corruption so im just not gonna go there again.

    So, again the goal initially was to reduce the amount of high level players farming low level areas where low level players are trying to level and farm. Now to reform my suggestion so that it keeps this in mind, we could instead make it so that these boss creatures only spawn within nodes that do not have a town city or metropolis in them. Basically they would be in the more "untamed fringes" which would be much more dangerous generally for low level players to go out to anyway. This would be in addition to the system were powerful ancient mobs will spawn to attack high level players within -any- zone they are killing low level mobs. So you wouldn't get bosses on the door-step of your node, your low level zones have difficult and un-rewarding mobs that spawn to attack high level players that farm there, and you now have areas to go farm the low level materials outside of the close to town, low level, farming spots that will additionally summon a boss once you reach a specific amount of kills.


    This encourages low level players to stay to the more developed zones for farming, discourages high level players from farming low level mobs near towns, cities, or metropolises, and the high level players are incentivized to venture further out of their nodes for exploring and farming.

    does this address your concerns?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited February 23
    Sathrago wrote: »
    does this address your concerns?
    It is still a situation where you are attempting to discourage an activity (high level players killing lower level mobs) by rewarding that activity (spawning bosses that drop loot).

    This system seems more like one that is intended to reward players for farming in specific locations than it is one to discourage farming lower level mobs.

    If Intrepid want to stop players farming mobs that are below their level, as I said earlier, all they need to do is make it so mobs don't offer rewards if they are 10 or more levels below you. This is what EQ2 did, and that game never had the issues you are trying to prevent.

    Edit; to clarify, I like the mechanic in general. It is just being put to the wrong purpose, in my mind.
  • Nah, I don't like the idea. If I want to spend three hours killing rats, then why should I not be able to? Maybe our Guild Fortress needs to collect 3000 Rat Hides in order to upgrade the carpets? Or rat hides are selling really well in a particular node, and I'm collecting to make some cash? Or there's a rating system that shows which players have killed the most of each creature, and I want to be at the top? Or I just really don't like rats? Or I've had a bad day at work and I want to kill things kill them kill them kill them?
    Daveywavey-member.png
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    edited February 23
    Noaani wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    does this address your concerns?
    It is still a situation where you are attempting to discourage an activity (high level players killing lower level mobs) by rewarding that activity (spawning bosses that drop loot).

    This system seems more like one that is intended to reward players for farming in specific locations than it is one to discourage farming lower level mobs.

    If Intrepid want to stop players farming mobs that are below their level, as I said earlier, all they need to do is make it so mobs don't offer rewards if they are 10 or more levels below you. This is what EQ2 did, and that game never had the issues you are trying to prevent.

    Edit; to clarify, I like the mechanic in general. It is just being put to the wrong purpose, in my mind.

    Well this is my attempt to make it interesting rather than a boring and lazy "you just dont get loot".
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Nah, I don't like the idea. If I want to spend three hours killing rats, then why should I not be able to? Maybe our Guild Fortress needs to collect 3000 Rat Hides in order to upgrade the carpets? Or rat hides are selling really well in a particular node, and I'm collecting to make some cash? Or there's a rating system that shows which players have killed the most of each creature, and I want to be at the top? Or I just really don't like rats? Or I've had a bad day at work and I want to kill things kill them kill them kill them?

    Because you can decimate an entire population of lower level mobs and easily control that area, and the low levels are left with no way to deal with that. They cant kill you due to level difference, they cant just go to a new area because travel time is massive in the game as they most likely do not have mounts, and finally that is their supposed role in the market, not high level players. This system does allow you to go and farm the low levels but at the penalty of difficult spawns to deal with. I am not saying it is perfect as this is all guess work and brainstorming... I just know that it might turn into a major issue if high level players are able to just go freely mass farm areas that would normally be used by low level players for leveling, questing, and gaining materials to start crafting with or selling.
  • I get your reasoning, but given that there aren't any specific "low level" or "high level" zones, players of different levels are supposed to be in the same areas together, which means that they'll both be around the same mobs. If the higher level players are spawning higher level mobs, then those lower level players are going to find their "low zone" a lot harder.
    Daveywavey-member.png
  • daveywavey wrote: »
    I get your reasoning, but given that there aren't any specific "low level" or "high level" zones, players of different levels are supposed to be in the same areas together, which means that they'll both be around the same mobs. If the higher level players are spawning higher level mobs, then those lower level players are going to find their "low zone" a lot harder.

    Well similar to the maw for world of warcraft they would focus on whoever triggered the summoning unless someone else were to attack and build aggro on them. I would disagree that there are no low or high level zones, because then low level players would die constantly to high level mobs just randomly being in the same location as the mobs they need to kill.

    A "zone" in this sense is a spawning area within a node for specific mobs and resources of of a certain level. There will most likely be multiple "zones" within a node to explore with different leveled creatures. Sure that forest over there has bunny rabbits to kill, but if you go past the forest into the swamps you will find crocodiles. So I don't believe they will mix them all together as that just would not be accessible.
  • Do we know what system of "spawning rate" ashes will use?

    In wow classic (at start) there was a specific number of mobs that could spawn. However, they changed that to a dynamic spawn rate, so if slot of players where in the same place killing the same mobs more mobs if that type will spawn.

    I agree with noaani, I like the mechanic of spawning elite mobs/higher lvl mobs but they should not drop loot. I also think that this system would indirectly counter act farming bots.

    But I'm also not sure I would want this in the game.
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